HY Moser Burlington

[Kevin Moodie]

I recently purchased a Hy Moser Burlington watch. It is in rough condition, but does have a neat, albeit chipped, Canadian 24hr dial. I'm sure I'll never be able to find an appropriate balance staff, but the movement is nice to look at.

 

[Omexa]

Hi, I think that it is a Illinois Burlington Dial that has been fitted to a Nice Moser. Regards Ray

 

[Kevin Moodie]

Ray,

The dial is two footed, with no indications of any other dial feet. Have you seen Illinois Burlington dials with the 24 hr inner track?

best,Kevin

 

[Omexa]

Hi, I had no way to know that it is a 2 footed Dial. Maybe Moser wanted to sell in the American and Canadian market. Regards ray

 

[Kevin Moodie]

Ray,

Burlington sold these Moser movements in Canada in a Cashier Canadian made case. Kind of cool looking, and with 6 position adjustment, probably a better time keeper than the Illinois movements. I purchased another a few years ago which had a Radium dial, but it never made it back from the seller, so I can't show it here. Best, Kevin.

 

[MartyR]

This is surely a Swiss movement made by Moser and shipped as a PL to the Burlington Watch Co in Chicago IL. Mikrolisk gives Burlington in Springfield IL.

The dial is a pretty standard form of Continental 24-hour dial, but were not many of these fitted to American watches?

 

[Kent]

Doesn't the fact that the dial is plainly marked "Made In Switzerland" down at the bottom pretty much preclude it having made by Illinois? Although I don't recall having seen this particular dial on Moser-Burlington watches, there's no doubt in my mind that it is an original Swiss-made Burlington dial.

 

[eric the bully]

there's no doubt in my mind that it is an original Swiss-made Burlington dial.

this type of dial was in use in the Canadian railways

https://mb.nawcc.org/showwiki.php?title=Burlington_Watch_Co
regards enrico

 

[Tom McIntyre]

This is cool. I had not realized that the Chicago Burlington mail order watch company sold anything but Illinois watches. Apart from the dial damage, it is a really nice looking watch.

 

[Larry Treiman]

This is cool. I had not realized that the Chicago Burlington mail order watch company sold anything but Illinois watches. Apart from the dial damage, it is a really nice looking watch.

It seems reasonably safe to assume (yes, I know all about "ass + u + me"; I'll take my chances) that Burlington likely had a Canadian office or agent that imported these fairly well-known Henry Moser/Burlington movements (and possibly others) directly from Switzerland into Canada where they were cased in cases made in Canada.

Many years ago I had a Burlington wrist watch, probably 1920s vintage, with a Swiss-made Barbezat-Bole movement, but I can't recall if it was for the U.S. or Canadian market.

Larry Treiman

 

[Kent]

There is no doubt that Burlington had a Canadian office marketing the Moser-made Burlington movements, as the picture below shows.

It's in the traditional small print at the bottom of the page, but a careful look reveals that the office was located at 355 Portage Ave, Winnipeg, Man.

I'll update the Burlington Watch Co. Encyclopedia article to specifically reference these facts.


https://mb.nawcc.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=74299&d=1287597298&thumb=1

 

[Tom McIntyre]

Does anyone have documentation on the relationship between Burlington, Chicago and Burlington, Winnipeg?

 

[MartyR]

Does anyone have documentation on the relationship between Burlington, Chicago and Burlington, Winnipeg?

... and Burlington, Springfield.

And between Henry Moser and Julian Gallet (whom Mikrolisk lists as having used the name).

 

[Larry Treiman]

Does anyone have documentation on the relationship between Burlington, Chicago and Burlington, Winnipeg?

Tom, did you (and MartyR) miss the 1918 Burlington advertisement in Kent's post #11, where Kent specifically noted that Burlington listed both their Chicago address and the address of their "Canadian Office" in Winnipeg. That's enough for me!

Based on that, I'll take a big leap once again (fools rush in.....) and "ASS + _ + ME" that it means that Burlington had a "Canadian Office" in Winnipeg. So that only my reputation might be tainted (not much at stake there) I'll be glad to leave"U" out of it! <];>p

Larry Treiman

 

[MartyR]

Tom, did you (and MartyR) miss the 1918 Burlington advertisement in Kent's post #11, where Kent specifically noted that Burlington listed both their Chicago address and the address of their "Canadian Office" in Winnipeg. That's enough for me!

No I didn't miss that. But what has that to do with explaining the (alleged) Springfield location and the (apparent) use by Julian Gallet & Cie of the brand name?

 

[Kent]

Also, let's not lose sight of the fact that many Moser-Burlington movements are in Canadian-made cases plainly marked (as Kevin Moodie posted above), "Burlington Watch Co. Chicago U.S.A."

 

[Tom McIntyre]

If Burlington of Chicago had a sales office in Winnipeg and contracted with Moser and others it all sort of hangs together. However, it was earlier implied that decisions on how to run the business were made in the Winnipeg office and that would point to a subsidiary or even a franchisee.

A piece of letterhead with officer names from Winnipeg would likely answer the question reasonably well.

Canadian content laws may have applied to the merchandise and led to a largely independent operation in Winnipeg.

 

[Larry Treiman]

No I didn't miss that. But what has that to do with explaining the (alleged) Springfield location and the (apparent) use by Julian Gallet & Cie of the brand name?

I try to avoid using Mikrolisk because it raised more questions than it answered for me on several occasions in the past. However, I just went and looked up Burlington and Burlington Watch Co., and it was showing that the watches were made by the Illinois Watch Co., and indicated correctly that they (Illinois) were in Springfield [Illinois].

As for the use of Burlington by Julien [note spelling] Gallet, I haven't the slightest idea, but I think it showed a date of 1889, which is long before what this thread was about.

I should never have stuck my nose into this thread; Apparently I just don't have the patience or interest any more. Next time I'll be much more hesitant before jumping in! However, I hope you guys dig up the "documentation" you're looking for. Happy excavating!

Larry

 

[Kent]

If Burlington of Chicago had a sales office in Winnipeg and contracted with Moser and others it all sort of hangs together. However, it was earlier implied that decisions on how to run the business were made in the Winnipeg office and that would point to a subsidiary or even a franchisee.

A piece of letterhead with officer names from Winnipeg would likely answer the question reasonably well.

Canadian content laws may have applied to the merchandise and led to a largely independent operation in Winnipeg.

At this point in time, it isn't significant to me whether the decision to market Moser movements under the Burlington Watch Co. name was made in Chicago or Winnipeg. Nevertheless, Tom is correct in that we would need some sort of documentation to determine exactly what the relationship was between the two.

What I do find significant is that Burlington chose to import Swiss watches to meet Canadian railroad time service requirements rather than obtain them from the Illinois Watch Company. I suspect that it was a cost issue.

 

[brownsrplm]

At this point in time, it isn't significant to me whether the decision to market Moser movements under the Burlington Watch Co. name was made in Chicago or Winnipeg. Nevertheless, Tom is correct in that we would need some sort of documentation to determine exactly what the relationship was between the two.

What I do find significant is that Burlington chose to import Swiss watches to meet Canadian railroad time service requirements rather than obtain them from the Illinois Watch Company. I suspect that it was a cost issue.

H. Moser & Cie – Where does this name H. Moser & Cie manufacture originate in? This story is known to very few people. Heinrich Moser was born in 1805 in Schaffhausen, he belonged to a dynasty of watchmakers and he made up his mind to be a watchmaker too. At the age of 22 he moved to Russia, where he successfully founded a watch empire known as H. Moser & Cie.
The watch production was launched in Swiss town of Le Locle, some watch details were purchased from Urban Jurgensen and Jaeger-LeCoultre companies. Producing about 70 calibers, H. Moser & Cie really had a crack, the company supplied Russian emperors with its watches, also a lot of watches were sold in Japan, China, Persia, France and America.
In Russia Moser started his career as a watchmaker, and finished it as a head of the largest trading house with its own workshop of watch assembly. Thanks to the founder of the company, for Russians Moser's name became synonymous with the products of the highest quality.

H. Moser made Swiss Burlington watches for Canadian Railway service. FYI Canadian Burlingtons were 19 or 21J and adjusted to 5 or 6 positions. That is why they were purchased and used as opposed to the Illinois Burlingtons of that time period. This one is mine and is 21J adjusted to 5 positions and temp.




For more on this company see the following: http://montre24.com/brand/H-Moser-Cie/HMoserCie/

 

[Tom McIntyre]

Do we know if the Canadian Burlingtons were sold on the time payment plan like the U.S. ones were?

I had the impression that most of the Burlington Watches were not accepted on most railroads but clearly these Hy. Moser movements are of much higher quality.

In saying this, I realize that some lines may have accepted all Burlington watches and some Burlington models and grades were likely accepted on all lines.

 

[Kent]

... What I do find significant is that Burlington chose to import Swiss watches to meet Canadian railroad time service requirements rather than obtain them from the Illinois Watch Company. I suspect that it was a cost issue.

... FYI Canadian Burlingtons were 19 or 21J and adjusted to 5 or 6 positions. That is why they were purchased and used as opposed to the Illinois Burlingtons of that time period ...

Burlington had purchased 21-jewel, 16-size, lever-set movements, adjusted to temperature, 6 positions and isochronism, in the past from Illinois. They could have done so again if they so chose (all indications are that Illinois would have furnished just about anything that Burlington would have requested) and Illinois-made watches, of sufficient characteristics, were certainly accepted in Canadian railway time service. So, my point was that the issue probably came down to cost rather than the ability to meet Canadian railway requirements.

.... This one is mine and is 21J adjusted to 5 positions and temp. ...

Nice watch!

Would you please share some details about it; size, setting means and perhaps a picture of the dial?

Thanks,

 

[brownsrplm]

This one as you can see has an issue with the dial, but is correct for it. Bottom of dial says made in Switzerland. This is a 16s lever set and I have noticed they are a bit thinner than the Illinois Burlington's. The case on the Canadian's when original will always be a Cashier with the Choo-Choo like this one:


The Illinois Burlington's have a case like this:



I read in some literature that there were at least two Rail Lines that accepted the Canadian Service watch Alaska being one of those. I will have to dig around and find it as there was more info on there than just that. You indicate that Illinois made 5 and six position (Burlington) watches? All the one's I've ever seen just say adjusted to positions on them. Do you have an example of one with the positions marked out?

 

[Tom McIntyre]

Here is the Sangamo example from John cote's site that is referenced in the Encyclopedia article on [MAIN]Burlington Watch Co.[/MAIN]

 

[brownsrplm]

Tom,
I remember reading that there were some of these Sangamo grade watches that were accepted for service here in the U.S.. I suppose this would have been one of them. Surprised to see Burlington on it instead of Sangamo. That still doesn't resolve the issue about the bridge and 3/4 plate model Burlington's. I own 19J and 21J versions of those, but they all say adjusted to positions and don't state how many. Shugart's book says three. There was a Getty model that was adjusted to six positions as well as the Sangamo, but again not many of them made. I'd love to have one of these Sangamo's myself. Nice thread, thanks for the pic...

 

[Tom McIntyre]

I wish the picture were better. I cannot tell if it says 5 positions or 6 positions. I am sure you are correct that the vast majority of the 19 and 21 jewel Burlington bridge models were only marked positions and, of course, no record of what rates were attained in those positions.

This has been discussed a lot over the years and it might get better exposure in the American Pocket Watch forum even though it began with a Swiss watch.

 

[Kent]

brownsrplm:

I'm sorry for neglecting to ask this earlier, but I can't read the serial number on your Moser-Burlington movement. Would you please share it with us?

Just so people don't come to belive that Burlington only marketed Swiss-made watches in Canada, Here's an example of a pre-1918 Illinois-Burlington movement bearing a dial typically used in Canada and mounted in a Canadian-made, Cashier-Burlington case.

 

[brownsrplm]

Thanks Kent, that is what I've been looking for. My serial is 1723275, which puts it somewhere before 1917?

 

[Kent]

Thanks Kent, that is what I've been looking for. My serial is 1723275, which puts it somewhere before 1917?

I have no idea of the dating of these other than within a general era of 1917 (when Burlington switched from 19-jewel to 21-jewel watches - although this may not apply to the Moser-Burlington watches) to 1927 (at which time Burlington ads seem to have ceased appearing - implying the end of Burlington).

Would you please confirm the 4th digit of the serial number. If it is a '9' (instead of the '3' that you reported - it's blurred in your picture), then the movement would fit nicely between the last of the pendant-set Moser-Burlington movements and the first of the lever-set movements in the data base that Ed Ueberall and I maintain of reported examples of railroad (and other interesting) watches. If it is a '3', then the movement is off in an area in which there are no other reported examples.

Thanks,

 

[brownsrplm]

Kent,
You are correct it is a 9 not a three. I was reading off the picture myself and ended up digging the watch back out.

 

[Kent]

Thanks for taking the trouble to check the serial number!

 

[Jeff Hess]

This is cool. I had not realized that the Chicago Burlington mail order watch company sold anything but Illinois watches. Apart from the dial damage, it is a really nice looking watch.

Tom,

I have owned scores of swiss BUrlington WAtch Company watches. From O size on up. But I have never seen onemarked Hy Moser. Amazing. Note the markings on the movement!
Jeffrey Hess

 

[Jeff Hess]

As an aside, Rolex also had a "Special relationship" with a Canadian "Distributor" and the Rolex name was on all kinds of interesting watches,many very cheaply made, some with Rhinestones (paste, fake diamonds) on them. And the cases were just awful.

This thread reminds me of discussion about Rolex doing similar things in Canada before the current conventional wisdom came around.

Jeffrey P. Hess