Hubert Herr One Day Escapement Problem

[Ravens_Time]

Hello all,

Working on a HH one day cuckoo. Complete tear down and clean. Bushed all going train bearings except chain wheel. All pivots burnished. I cannot get this clock to run for more than several seconds. I have checked for bent pivots, arbors and gear teeth and can’t find any. The escapement is uneven. The escape wheel always seems to stop with a tooth on the exit pallet. The entry drop seems weak. Can’t figure this one out.
This clock did not come with a pendulum so I got one from timesavers. The weights that came with the clock are 280 grams each. The books I have say they should be 320. I added the extra 40 grams to the chain but this has no effect.
Please help if you can!

Hubert Herr One Day

Escapement problem with Hubert Herr one day.

youtube.com

Here’s a short video

Thanks,
Pat

 

[POWERSTROKE]

Check again for tight bushings. I had one Hubert Herr I rebuilt a year ago that I decided not to do the crutch/ pallet bushings. I knew I probably should’ve done it. The clock began to stop erratically:
I did those bushings and put it up in the wall. Same thing as your clock. The bushings were ever so snug. I broached them out. Of cuckoo plate pivot holes are round don’t Bush them, then can have some slip of they aren’t ovaled out.

 

[POWERSTROKE]

It also sounds out of beat.

 

[Willie X]

If lateral movement is not there, at the pivot's tip, it's to tight. This should be easy to see with magnification and oil in the pivot hole.

Did you chamfer the inside of each new bushing?

Lots of bushings can spell trouble.

Willie X

 

[Vernon]

Agreed that your bushings may be tight. Also, make sure that you have good end shake and that the pallets aren't rutted.

 

[Ravens_Time]

Check again for tight bushings. I had one Hubert Herr I rebuilt a year ago that I decided not to do the crutch/ pallet bushings. I knew I probably should’ve done it. The clock began to stop erratically:
I did those bushings and put it up in the wall. Same thing as your clock. The bushings were ever so snug. I broached them out. Of cuckoo plate pivot holes are round don’t Bush them, then can have some slip of they aren’t ovaled out.

Thanks for the reply. I did bush the pallet holes. I have plenty of end shake and the pallet swings free when its placed between the plates by itself. You got me thinking though and I remember when I removed the movement before teardown the rear pallet "dogbone" was bowed outward just a bit. When I was doing the bushing work I straightened it out. I will broach these out some more and try it. Thanks again for the help!

Also I cant get it to run long enough to get it in beat. I'll update when I have more.

Pat

 

[Ravens_Time]

If lateral movement is not there, at the pivot's tip, it's to tight. This should be easy to see with magnification and oil in the pivot hole.

Did you chamfer the inside of each new bushing?

Lots of bushings can spell trouble.

Willie X

Thanks for the reply Willie,
I did chamfer the new bushings on the inside of the plates. When I couldn't get the train to run I looked at the bushings through high magnification and the chamfers were very rough. I use a Bergeon bushing machine and used the chamfer tool. Not real happy with the results so I replaced the bushes and did not chamfer thinking the rough edges of the bush were binding on the pivot shoulders. I'm going to follow your advise and look at the pivots in the bushes under magnification and see if I have enough lateral movement. Thanks again,

Pat

 

[Ravens_Time]

Agreed that your bushings may be tight. Also, make sure that you have good end shake and that the pallets aren't rutted.

Thanks Vernon,
With all the wear in this movement I was surprised to find the pallets with almost no wear at all. I did polish the faces just the same. Gonna go check the bushings again and see if I can find the tight one.

Thanks again,
Pat

 

[Willie X]

Rave,

I use the same little Bergeon chamfering tool you have there I just spin it between my fingers and barely touch the bushing once or maybe twice. These tools are very aggressive and tend to bite when in the machine, no matter how light the touch.

Also, I like to use the smaller #2 reamer on cuckoos where possible. It seems easier to keep the position from drifting, when you don't need to make such a big hole. You may already be using the smaller bushings (but if not) you may want to try it on the next cuckoo.

Save the birdies, Willie X

 

[shutterbug]

I think I'd remove the verge and see what kind of action you get from the escape wheel. It should snap to action immediately when you stop it with a finger, let go, stop again ....... If you get good action there, it shows that the issue is probably in the verge. I don't see any recoil in the video, but at this point we don't know for sure where to look for the issue.
It is pretty far out of beat though. Bend your crutch to the right a little (looking from the back) and see if that helps. Also, loosen the top loop on the hanger. I'm seeing the whole thing moving and most of the movement there should be on the hanger itself, not the upper loop it hangs from.

 

[Ravens_Time]

You guys are good! Ok I broached out all the going train bushes and the movement runs. Not for long but it does run now longer than it ever has for me. I suspect it was the pallet bushings as Powerstroke mentioned. Thanks for the help Willie. You are absolutely right about the chamfering tool being aggressive. I actually didn’t use the machine for those but spun it with my fingers. I used the 2mm #5 bushes except for the pallets which I used the #9s.

Shutt you were right as well. I had to bend the crutch wire to the right quite a bit actually and have it closer to being in beat but not quite there yet. I see the upper loop moving as you say and will loosen that. Also will try the test without the verge. What do you guys think about the weights? Is 280 enough?

Thanks for all the help! It’s coming along.
Pat

 

[POWERSTROKE]

my bet is a tight bushing. The way I do cuckoo clocks is I get a bushing that slips in the pivot with a little play. I don’t measure them with calipers. It’ll be too tight if you do it that way. 90% of the time when you tap the bushing in with this method you don’t need to do any broaching after.
I’ve done 8 day cuckoos and bushed every hole and they run fine. Round holes and loose fitting with end shake. (Loose meaning, a small amount of play.)

if you take the verge out as shutter bug suggests and spin the train, it should hum along, a nice whirring and spin for a bit. The video is a classic example
Of something being too tight.

 

[Ravens_Time]

my bet is a tight bushing. The way I do cuckoo clocks is I get a bushing that slips in the pivot with a little play. I don’t measure them with calipers. It’ll be too tight if you do it that way. 90% of the time when you tap the bushing in with this method you don’t need to do any broaching after.
I’ve done 8 day cuckoos and bushed every hole and they run fine. Round holes and loose fitting with end shake. (Loose meaning, a small amount of play.)

if you take the verge out as shutter bug suggests and spin the train, it should hum along, a nice whirring and spin for a bit. The video is a classic example
Of something being too tight.

Thanks for the advice! I will give that a try. The movement will run for about 15 minutes but loses amplitude and finally quits. The crutch has a wobble that pushes the pendulum leader length wise in the crutch loop which I believe is also slowing it down. First thing I’m gonna do is remove the verge and check the train and see how smooth the other wheels are.

Thanks again!

Pat

 

[Ravens_Time]

Also, loosen the top loop on the hanger. I'm seeing the whole thing moving and most of the movement there should be on the hanger itself, not the upper loop it hangs from.

SB,

Are you saying I need to loosen the loop at the very top of the crutch leader? I circled it in this photo. How loose should it be?

Thanks again!
Pat

 

[shutterbug]

No, just be sure the hook on the hanger below the circle is loose enough to swing freely. It looks OK on the pic, but I'm pretty sure that's where your pendulum wobble is coming from. Everything has to be in line. The crutch needs to be perpendicular to the back plate and parallel to the floor.

 

[Ravens_Time]

Thanks again to everyone for your help. I have the movement running now with a healthy beat. It was all of the items you guys mentioned. I broached out all the bushings and then smooth broached them as well. The crutch was not parallel with the floor and was slightly off being perpendicular to the plate. After those small tweaks it took off. Been running for 3 1/2 hours so far. I am going to do the same thing to the strike bushings I installed as well. I truly appreciate all the help!!!
Pat

 

[POWERSTROKE]

It’s counterintuitive. But the cuckoo bushings needs to be loose. I when I started repairing them, I think I was bushing holes that I wouldn’t do now.

 

[Ravens_Time]

It’s counterintuitive. But the cuckoo bushings needs to be loose. I when I started repairing them, I think I was bushing holes that I wouldn’t do now.

Yeah after reading your posts and seeing this I probably should have left them alone. This is my first cuckoo. I have 2 more waiting. Both of those are Regulas. One 30 hour and an 8 day. Learning with every movement and I enjoy that and the challenge each presents.

Thanks again for your help.

Pat

 

[POWERSTROKE]

Look at the holes on the other movements. If they are round in shape with no ovaling, you should probably leave them. Send me pictures or video if you want.

 

[Ravens_Time]

Look at the holes on the other movements. If they are round in shape with no ovaling, you should probably leave them. Send me pictures or video if you want.

Will do...thanks! I'm pulling my hair out over this thing. Ran fine until the weight reached the floor. Wanted to run it through another cycle so I pulled the weight back up and now it wont run more than a few seconds. Gonna have to sit and study this thing for awhile.

 

[POWERSTROKE]

Out of beat after pulling chains up?

 

[Ravens_Time]

It’s gonna be way outta beat when I take it outside and it meets the side of a big oak tree!

Actually I think I fixed it. The post that threads into the back plate was screwed tight but that made the loop the pendulum leader hangs from to be slightly off vertical. It was tilted slightly to the left as you look at the back. I loosened the threaded post up slightly so the loop was 90 degrees to the floor and it took off running. Sounds out of beat now because I think my adjustments to the crutch where compensating for that loop being off. Will wait and see. Obviously there was a lot of issues with this movement and you guys pointed them all out. I appreciate all the help! Will update as I get to do more.

Pat

 

[Willie X]

That post will have to be tight. Otherwise the beat will never be stable. A speck of Locktite or Superglue at the post to plate junction will do it. Apply the glue and wiggle the post back and forth to distribute the glue where it needs to be, stopping at exactly the right position. If it's to tight to wiggle, then you don't need to do anything. Willie X

 

[Ravens_Time]

That post will have to be tight. Otherwise the beat will never be stable. A speck of Locktite or Superglue at the post to plate junction will do it. Apply the glue and wiggle the post back and forth to distribute the glue where it needs to be, stopping at exactly the right position. If it's to tight to wiggle, then you don't need to do anything. Willie X

Thanks Willie!

I will do that. Hope it runs when I get the strike side complete.

Pat

 

[Willie X]

It's just a long process on some clocks. I have one, pretty often, that will 'eat my lunch', such is the game we play. Willie X