Howard series III

model1857guy

Registered User
Sep 24, 2016
543
235
43
34
Norton, Massachusetts
Country
Region
I've been wanting a series III to go with my series IV key wind for a while and realistically I just am not at a point with two kids that I can pay the price for one its its original and correct case so like I did on my series IV I was o the search for a loose movement.

Won this one but had to buy an Elgin to get it but in the end it basically works out that I paid $83 for this series III. It was listed as non running and it was hard to tell from the pictures but I suspected a possible broken balance staff.

Arrived today and that's confirmed but it appears otherwise complete. Looks to be made June 1865 I think?

So couple questions.

1. Before I put any money into it does it appear to be correct and otherwise as it should be?

2. Anybody out there repairing watches that knows Howard's and can service this and fit a new balance staff? Normally I can do a cleaning myself and I've done a few balance staffs but I feel this movement warrants professional skill.

20200521_133838.jpg 20200521_133731.jpg 20200521_133758.jpg 20200521_133818.jpg
 

Keith R...

NAWCC Member
Nov 27, 2012
5,766
2,489
113
South
Country
Region
Looks good to me. Here's my Mershon. Your dial is correct. These movements
fit good in the old Hampden/Dueber salesman cases.

Tell Marty you need Howard diamond spade hands.

Note, mine would be correct with your dial. The dial on it is pre #6500 (Howard
III's).

Keith R...

103_6273 (800x600).jpg 103_6267 (800x600).jpg
 
Last edited:

model1857guy

Registered User
Sep 24, 2016
543
235
43
34
Norton, Massachusetts
Country
Region
Looks good to me. Here's my Mershon. Your dial is correct. These movements
fit good in the old Hampden/Dueber salesman cases.

Tell Marty you need Howard diamond spade hands.

Note, mine would be correct with your dial. The dial on it is pre #6500 (Howard
III's).

Keith R...

View attachment 591186 View attachment 591187
I was hoping you'd chime I Keith, I've followed your posts. I figured this once was worth the gamble. I have it sitting in a mid 1860s sterling hunter case right now. Oddly this case only had a hole for the movement locating pin at the 7:00 position like the Howard movement. Thinking of sending the case out having the winding hole filled and new ones added for this movement.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Keith R...

Clint Geller

Gibbs Literary Award
NAWCC Fellow
NAWCC Member
Jul 12, 2002
2,126
1,489
113
67
Pittsburgh, PA
clintgeller.com
Country
Region
To get a little more precise, your number 7110 was finished on June 3 1865 along with numbers 7101 to 7120 that day. In looking at the factory ledger I see the movement is listed as "Chrono bal, N movt. Pat Reg". and was sold or consigned to Charles E. Hale & Co. the case maker (CEH&Co.)
Harold
I'm pleased to see you posting again, Harold. I've missed you.
 

Keith R...

NAWCC Member
Nov 27, 2012
5,766
2,489
113
South
Country
Region
Here is one with winding hole filled, new Howard winding hole, added center hole
for time setting. The case is gold filled. Silver would be much easier to work with.

I suspect this 2nd gen case was done by a jeweler about 1880.

I will add a note to our PM.

Keith R...

100_3739 (800x600) - Copy.jpg
 

Scott Tzorfas

NAWCC Member
Jul 3, 2014
64
14
8
Keith,
I have two Howard series III movements that need cases. Howard cases seem to be impossible to find. Where do I get the old Hampden/Dueber salesman cases? This sounds like a solution I have been waiting for!
Scott
 
  • Like
Reactions: Keith R...

Keith R...

NAWCC Member
Nov 27, 2012
5,766
2,489
113
South
Country
Region
Scott, I got my "old" Dueber Hampden glass back cases from Jon H.

Check in with Fred Hansen, he may can steer you toward an old one.

If not let me know, I think I have a couple, but will have to dig.

Keith R...
 

model1857guy

Registered User
Sep 24, 2016
543
235
43
34
Norton, Massachusetts
Country
Region
Looks good to me. Here's my Mershon. Your dial is correct. These movements
fit good in the old Hampden/Dueber salesman cases.

Tell Marty you need Howard diamond spade hands.

Note, mine would be correct with your dial. The dial on it is pre #6500 (Howard
III's).

Keith R...

Keith, I dug through spare coin hunter case parts. Found a bezel that fit the rear of the case I was wanting to use with this movement. Swapped out the cuvette and made a hunter display case.

I was really wanting to use this case as it already had a locator pin hole at 7:00 for Howard movement to fit.

20200528_155453.jpg 20200528_155605.jpg 20200528_155530.jpg 20200528_155653.jpg 20200528_155735.jpg
 

Clint Geller

Gibbs Literary Award
NAWCC Fellow
NAWCC Member
Jul 12, 2002
2,126
1,489
113
67
Pittsburgh, PA
clintgeller.com
Country
Region
Here is a nice Model 1862 ("Series III"), an early ray damaskeened movement, SN 4,094, completed and placed in factory inventory on December 14, 1863, with 15 jewels in screwed down jewel settings and long regulator. The eccentric ray pattern draws the eye to Reed's patented protective main wheel, an important technical feature and selling point of the watch. (Later ray patterns often have different numbers of rays.) Screwed down jewel settings were uncommon in this serial number range. Unfortunately, I don't have pictures handy of the interior of the front lid or the dust cover of the 18 karat gold J. M. Harper case, but the engine turning on both those surfaces is gorgeous, and one can see the diamond pattern decoration on the bezel, which turns up often on JMH cases for Howards. The two-line script signature dial with seconds marks on the main dial is especially nice too.

4,094 case front.JPG 4,094 dial.JPG 4,094 ray dmk III movt.JPG
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Clint Geller

Gibbs Literary Award
NAWCC Fellow
NAWCC Member
Jul 12, 2002
2,126
1,489
113
67
Pittsburgh, PA
clintgeller.com
Country
Region
And here is an only slightly later Model 1862, SN 7,777, completed on September 12, 1865, with the early scythe style of Mershon's patented rack and pin regulator. (The later style had a curved-T rack with the spoke in the center, rather than a scythe.) The lovely 18 karat engine turned drum style case weighs at least three ounces, and maybe more.

DSC_1100.JPG DSC_1102.JPG DSC_1103.JPG DSC_1104.JPG DSC_1105.JPG
 

Clint Geller

Gibbs Literary Award
NAWCC Fellow
NAWCC Member
Jul 12, 2002
2,126
1,489
113
67
Pittsburgh, PA
clintgeller.com
Country
Region
This old presentation of mine has several more rare Model 1862 examples. SN 3,302 shown on Slide #7, completed in December, 1862, was the second N Size three quarter plate standard production movement made. The four examples shown on Slide #9 showcase a long regulator, a curved-T style Type 2 Mershon's regulator, and a Reed's patent micrometer (a.k.a. "whip spring," a.k.a. "swan's neck") regulator. All four examples are rayed, including two gilded (gold flashed?) ray damaskeened examples and two nickel plated ray damaskeened examples. Only 141 nickel Series III movements were made (including an odd one-off with a low serial number that was finished way later), by my count. The number of ray damaskeened gold flashed examples made is less certain, because one of the relevant factor record books is not available. The nickel finished movements included the first run of twenty (if memory serves) at SN 21,561, which was the only run of nickel III's to have Mershon's regulator, and one run of ten at SN 23,561, which was the only run of nickel III's with Cole's resilient escapement. Note that by the time the nickel examples came out, Howard had begin marking the level of adjustments on the balance cock, but had stopped marking the Reed's patent on the main wheel. Movement SN 21,572 has an unique personalized dial and is in a gorgeous 18 karat gold Baldwin reversible hunting-to-open face case.

https://clintgeller.files.wordpress.com/2017/06/an-introduction-to-howard-watches.pdf
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Clint Geller

Gibbs Literary Award
NAWCC Fellow
NAWCC Member
Jul 12, 2002
2,126
1,489
113
67
Pittsburgh, PA
clintgeller.com
Country
Region
And finally, here is a Model 1862 (Series III) with a documented Civil War provenance. Once again, the engine turning and other engraving on both the exterior and interior surfaces of the 18 karat J. M. Harper case is outstanding. (Note again the signature JMH engraving design, which incorporates diamond shapes, on the bezel.) Movement SN 5,455, finished September 19, 1864, features a Mershon's Type 1 regulator, 15 jewels in spun-in settings, and a compensated bimetallic balance with unslotted, countersunk gold alloy screws. The escutcheon around the setting arbor on the center wheel is the older, half-crescent style. The hands are classic Howard teardrops with polished tips and bosses, and the dial is similar to that of SN 4,094. The dust cover is inscribed: "Presented to Benjamin W. Woodward by his friends in subsistence Department, Army of the Potomac, October 1, 1864."

Benjamin Weston Woodward served as a clerk in the Army of the Potomac's Subsistence Department, which was responsible for supplying all the food and clothing necessary to sustain that army. His older brother, Major John Woodward, was in charge of beef cattle for the AOP. Benjamin served alongside a third brother, under John. After the war, Benjamin Woodward served for a time on the NY State Supreme Court, then residing in Brooklyn, before returning to Watkins (now Watkins Glen) NY where he served as a local judge there.

At the time I purchased this watch, which had come out of the estate of the late Dr. William Heilman of Newcastle, IN, I had no idea who Benjamin Woodward was or where he came from. Shortly thereafter, my wife and I made plans to spend part of our summer vacation that year in Watkins Glen, in the Finger Lakes region of NY. In the following months before our vacation, a long trail of bread crumbs led me to Watkins Glen, where with some help from the local historical society, I located Woodward's family history. And it came about that by pure serendipity, the B&B where we had already booked a room was located directly adjacent to the Greenwood Cemetery, where Woodward is buried. So on the last day of our vacation, we walked the cemetery and located Woodward's grave. I then briefly reunited the judge with his watch, as shown in the picture.

case front.jpg case rear.jpg Cuvette -2.jpg Cuvette.jpg dial.jpg Inside front lid.jpg movt filtered.jpg movt no filter.jpg BW Woodward Headstone & Watch.JPG article on the woodwards.jpg Benjamin W. Woodward Article.jpg
 
Last edited:

Keith R...

NAWCC Member
Nov 27, 2012
5,766
2,489
113
South
Country
Region
Great slide in post #15 Clint!

I would hope all Howard collectors open and save to file, Clint's slide. Note, post #14
has a diamond tipped minute hand. I'm not sure Marty can still get them. We now have
a Series III Howard thread, thanks to the OP!

I had up another 7xxx, but I did not like the pic.

Keith R...

View attachment 595532
 
Last edited:

Clint Geller

Gibbs Literary Award
NAWCC Fellow
NAWCC Member
Jul 12, 2002
2,126
1,489
113
67
Pittsburgh, PA
clintgeller.com
Country
Region
Are you sure that is a diamond tipped hand Keith, I have a few of those type of hands here and always thought they were just very highly polished steel?
I assumed that Keith was referring to the shape of the hand, not its composition. I can state with certainty that there is no diamond in that hand. That same collection includes two black Moorhouse dial Howards with gold hands with diamond brilliants set into them, but those look nothing remotely like these hands.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bila and Keith R...

Clint Geller

Gibbs Literary Award
NAWCC Fellow
NAWCC Member
Jul 12, 2002
2,126
1,489
113
67
Pittsburgh, PA
clintgeller.com
Country
Region
  • Like
Reactions: Keith R...

Keith R...

NAWCC Member
Nov 27, 2012
5,766
2,489
113
South
Country
Region
Thanks Clint!

I want collectors to know, the true original Gold Howard in post #17, should
be the original Howard with provenance, Howard collectors should strive for.

I believe Howard's would have been in 18K hunter cases like #5455. I'd like
to ask Rob to delete the dial side photo in post # 23. I was just demonstrating
I had the correct dial for this 7xxx movement.

I was glad to see you re-emerge in original Howard's Clint. Interesting that
#5455 must have been close to the end run (Mershon), considering my
conventional movement #5477, shown in post #13.

Thanks for your post of the original gold Howard's. I encourage Howard
collectors to study posts #14, 15, 16 & 17 in our Howard world of series III's.

These finds along with the documentation, will lead one in the right direction
of original Howard's. I have been an early student of your study and
presentations Clint. Great work through the years!

PS...I will put the 7xxx movement in a silver hunter, with a glass back for
display.

Keith R...
 
  • Like
Reactions: Clint Geller

60MinuteMan

NAWCC Member
Sep 16, 2020
58
106
33
Country
I am liking this thread and conversation. I went back in the archives a bit and came across it, it's giving me great insights for a series III I'm looking at.
I am also curious how much of the case fitment info might be relevant to a series II... any thoughts, do we think the hampden/dueber saleman case might work on an S2 ?
I'm in the same boat looking for that elusive Howard case for an 1858 model, but an interim solution would also be great.
 

Clint Geller

Gibbs Literary Award
NAWCC Fellow
NAWCC Member
Jul 12, 2002
2,126
1,489
113
67
Pittsburgh, PA
clintgeller.com
Country
Region
Thanks Clint!

I want collectors to know, the true original Gold Howard in post #17, should
be the original Howard with provenance, Howard collectors should strive for.

I believe Howard's would have been in 18K hunter cases like #5455. I'd like
to ask Rob to delete the dial side photo in post # 23. I was just demonstrating
I had the correct dial for this 7xxx movement.

I was glad to see you re-emerge in original Howard's Clint. Interesting that
#5455 must have been close to the end run (Mershon), considering my
conventional movement #5477, shown in post #13.

Thanks for your post of the original gold Howard's. I encourage Howard
collectors to study posts #14, 15, 16 & 17 in our Howard world of series III's.

These finds along with the documentation, will lead one in the right direction
of original Howard's. I have been an early student of your study and
presentations Clint. Great work through the years!

PS...I will put the 7xxx movement in a silver hunter, with a glass back for
display.

Keith R...
Keith, thank you for your kind words. I would like to point out, though, that many Howard keywinds were cased in silver as well. I have seen several silver cased Howard keywinds with matching movement and case serial numbers, including, incidentally, SN 123.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Keith R...

Keith R...

NAWCC Member
Nov 27, 2012
5,766
2,489
113
South
Country
Region
Just now coming back to the PC. I'm back on the right leg after the Femur break
and I'm slowly coming back.

I'm a Howard fan, but the next one will be all original in gold for me.

Hi again to all!!

Keith R...
 

musicguy

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Sponsor
Jan 12, 2017
7,307
3,838
113
New York State
Country
  • Like
Reactions: Keith R...

viclip

NAWCC Member
Jul 20, 2018
773
548
93
Country
Good to hear from you Keith & best wishes for a speedy recovery back to "as good as new" condition
 
  • Like
Reactions: Keith R...

Clint Geller

Gibbs Literary Award
NAWCC Fellow
NAWCC Member
Jul 12, 2002
2,126
1,489
113
67
Pittsburgh, PA
clintgeller.com
Country
Region
Just now coming back to the PC. I'm back on the right leg after the Femur break
and I'm slowly coming back.

I'm a Howard fan, but the next one will be all original in gold for me.

Hi again to all!!

Keith R...
I had no idea you had a broken wheel, Keith. I'm glad to know you're back out of the repair shop.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Keith R...

KipW

NAWCC Member
Mar 24, 2015
93
80
18
Country
Just found this thread and not wanting to hi-jack it...BUT... can anyone (Clint) tell me about "dating" my Series III - 1862 Ser#9111...please? I'm thinking it's probably post-civil war, but could be earlier? (References for this are scarce,)

This watch is far from perfect, but I love it all the same, yet know very little about it. Any and all input - greatly appreciated!

s-l1600 (1).jpg s-l1600 (5).jpg s-l1600 (7).jpg s-l1600 (8).jpg
 

Clint Geller

Gibbs Literary Award
NAWCC Fellow
NAWCC Member
Jul 12, 2002
2,126
1,489
113
67
Pittsburgh, PA
clintgeller.com
Country
Region
Hi, no exact date can be given for the completion of your movement, because it falls within the serial number range of the missing third factory record book. However, movement SN 8,341 was finished on December 4, 1865 and SN 17,001 was finished on October 16, 1868. So SN 9,111 is pretty clearly post-Civil War by at least a year.

Now, I suppose I am not telling you anything you don't already know when I point out that the case is not a correct Howard case.
 

vintageguy

NAWCC Member
Sponsor
Oct 27, 2013
305
497
63
58
Minnesota
Country
Region
  • Like
Reactions: Keith R...

KipW

NAWCC Member
Mar 24, 2015
93
80
18
Country
Clint, Thanks so much for the info!

You are right, I know about the case, the hands, the missing stop works Maltese and more...but as I said I kinda love the thing all the more for it's defects and the stories a survivor like this could tell if it could only talk. It just won't quit!

Pity it can't be perfectly dated, however that makes it all the more mysterious and intriguing.
 

Clint Geller

Gibbs Literary Award
NAWCC Fellow
NAWCC Member
Jul 12, 2002
2,126
1,489
113
67
Pittsburgh, PA
clintgeller.com
Country
Region
I dated my #5477 to Nov 1864.

Keith R...

View attachment 622713 View attachment 622714
Nice clean movement, Keith. I like those open face Howard keywinds. The factory records indicate your watch to have been completed ever so slightly earlier than November, 1864. The records indicate that your watch was finished between September 23 and September 30, 1864, probably closer to September 23. A lot was going on the country at that time. Atlanta had just fallen to General Wm. T. Sherman on September 2, 1864, and the Siege of Petersburg was continuing, pinning Robert E. Lee's Army of Northern Virginia in place around Richmond. Sherman's victory, combined with the capture of Mobile by Admiral David Farragut, who damned the torpedoes on August 5, and Union General Philip Sheridan's decisive victory over Jubil Early in the strategically critical Shenandoah Valley at Cedar Creek on October 19, reversed President Lincoln's fortunes in the election of November, 1864. Lincoln had been convinced he would lose that election as recently as the previous July. His electoral opponent, George McClellan, a popular general, would have admitted the Southern states back into the Union on terms allowing the continuation of slavery, in order to end the war immediately.

Your particular movement was adjusted to isochronism, temperature and six positions, even though the Howard company had not begun marking the level of adjustment on their movements yet. The hands are Howard hands, but they appear to be later than the movement.
 
Last edited:

vintageguy

NAWCC Member
Sponsor
Oct 27, 2013
305
497
63
58
Minnesota
Country
Region
Your particular movement was adjusted to isochronism, temperature and six positions
Clint, was American Watch Company producing a 6-position movement this early?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Keith R...

Clint Geller

Gibbs Literary Award
NAWCC Fellow
NAWCC Member
Jul 12, 2002
2,126
1,489
113
67
Pittsburgh, PA
clintgeller.com
Country
Region
Clint, was American Watch Company producing a 6-position movement this early?
VG, I believe that E. Howard & Co. was the first US company to adjust watches to all six positions. The earliest Howard factory record book known to survive starts at SN 3,301, and we know that movements fully adjusted to HCI6P show up very shortly thereafter. Now there is also data on one Series II movement in the two thousands that is adjusted to heat and cold. It is possible that some of the divided plate keywind (i.e., Series I and II) production was adjusted to positions as well, but we do not know.
 

Clint Geller

Gibbs Literary Award
NAWCC Fellow
NAWCC Member
Jul 12, 2002
2,126
1,489
113
67
Pittsburgh, PA
clintgeller.com
Country
Region
VG, I believe that E. Howard & Co. was the first US company to adjust watches to all six positions. The earliest Howard factory record book known to survive starts at SN 3,301, and we know that movements fully adjusted to HCI6P show up very shortly thereafter. Now there is also data on one Series II movement in the two thousands that is adjusted to heat and cold. It is possible that some of the divided plate keywind (i.e., Series I and II) production was adjusted to positions as well, but we do not know.
I went back and checked my records just now, and it turns out that movement SN 3,301, the very first movement listed in the available factory records, is fully adjusted to HCI6P. Also, a surviving sales certificate for Series I movement SN 1,287 reveals that Howard was adjusting his divided plate keywind movements at least to HCI by that point in time (i.e., 1859 or 1860).
 

Clint Geller

Gibbs Literary Award
NAWCC Fellow
NAWCC Member
Jul 12, 2002
2,126
1,489
113
67
Pittsburgh, PA
clintgeller.com
Country
Region
Perhaps one of the Waltham experts can say when the AWCo began adjusting watches to all six positions, and which grades and models that would have been.
 

SpringDriven

Registered User
Dec 22, 2010
103
181
43
Hello Everyone!

I thought I would add my 1863 Series III, #4108 to this thread, and ask about the escapement? The foot points in the opposite direction compared to a traditional Swiss lever, but otherwise is similar. Does anyone recognize this style of escape wheel? I am not familiar with it.

The case is signed J.M.H. which I understand made cases for Howard watches.

Thank you.

20210114_151839.jpg 20210114_151801.jpg 20210114_151827.jpg 20210114_151816.jpg 20201231_102304.jpg 20210114_151919.jpg
 

Ethan Lipsig

NAWCC Gold Member
Jan 8, 2006
2,380
2,115
113
72
Pasadena
Country
Region
I recently acquired a Howard Series III with Cole's Resilient Escapement, #23,934. It is in a nice 18k E.H. Howard case, #6,811. Besides having an unusual escapement, the movement is uncommon because it it adjusted to heat, cold, isochronism, and six positions, as indicated by the Adjusted inscription on the movement. I understand that Howard sold around 300 Series III Cole's and that only around 10% were fully adjusted, as my watch was. Hence, less than 30 fully adjusted, originally-cased Series III Cole's likely are still around, perhaps far fewer. The photos below do not show that the centers of the hands' "spades" are polished to a silver gloss. I failed to take a photo of the cover that bears the E.H. & Co. and 18k markings

DSC07143.JPG DSC07145.JPG DSC07147.JPG DSC07150.JPG DSC07148.JPG DSC07151.JPG DSC07157.JPG DSC07156.JPG DSC07158 - Copy.JPG DSC07158.JPG
 

SpringDriven

Registered User
Dec 22, 2010
103
181
43
I am very curious about the escape wheel in my series III. Does anyone recognize the style of this escapement? I am having difficulty finding an escapement where the toe of the foot of the tooth is the locking face.

I have added a comparison to a standard escape wheel.

20210114_151919.jpg 20201231_102945.jpg
 

Forum statistics

Threads
164,686
Messages
1,432,667
Members
85,738
Latest member
cspeed8
Encyclopedia Pages
1,101
Total wiki contributions
2,863
Last edit
Rockford's early high grade movements by Greg Frauenhoff