Howard Miller Movement

[wingtips515]

Hello again,
I have been asked to look into getting a 25 year old HM clock moving again. After cleaning and judicious oiling is is running again. The attached picture is of the3 arm that engages the chime mechanism. If you blow up the photo you can see there is a crack in the bushing. I am wondering if this is normal so it can be pressed onto the shaft or this one is damaged. The crack is located about the 1 o'clock position on the bushing.
Unfortunately I do not have any model number for this HM clock. If you would supply instructions as to the location of the model number I will reply with it.

Thank you in advance,
wings515

 

[Willie X]

There should be a number, or more likely a letter and number. This may be an early HM/Kieninger movement.

That slit looks to wide for a crack. I've never noticed this on other similar movements, others will know more.

I would expect something to be badly worn, usually in the chime train. Now if it's a pre HM movement, they often go to 30+ years before something wears out.

Willie X

 

[wingtips515]

I think I have found the model number,

M 11 116cm

Listed as no jewels made in Germany.

 

[MARK A. BUTTERWORTH]

That is the Kieninger MSU 13 model.

 

[wingtips515]

Thank you for the information. If the "crack" in the bushing is not normal, at this time all is working good so I will leave everything alone.

I will investigate the MSU13 just for information.

Best regards,
wings515

 

[wingtips515]

Thank you for the information. If the "crack" in the bushing is not normal, at this time all is working good so I will leave everything alone.

I will investigate the MSU13 just for information.

Best regards,
wings515

The chiming is intermittent. Sometimes it works and others not. My question now is, should the shaft that the cracked bushing is attached to be free to rotate at the bushing. It appears this shaft is free and that does not reset the internal arm which activates the chime and hour hammers.
If this shaft it to be held firm to the bushing I would attempt to "glue" the shaft to the bushing. The first internal arm has an adjustment screw to set the location of the arm to the shaft. This leads me to think the shaft should be tight to the bushing.

Any thoughts?

That is the Kieninger MSU 13 model.

Does anyone have parts for this movement?

 

[shutterbug]

I'm guessing that you have not yet disassembled and repaired a movement. This one is not a good first learning experience, but the cracked bushing should be replaced, and there is more than likely significant wear in other pivot holes too. Parts are probably not available, but the common items like bushings are. I'd recommend setting this one aside and buying a cheap one or two train clock to learn on. You won't regret it.

 

[Willie X]

A jeweler can solder that lever to the hub/shaft. Probably a better option than trying to find a donar movement or replacement part. I'm assuming it can be taken out without disassembling the movement.

Willie X

 

[wingtips515]

To clarify what I have found I am going to attach two pictures. The "A" is the shaft controlling the two hook arms. The "B" is the bushing and cracked arm. If I can get agreement from this experienced group about whether this shaft should be attached firmly to the bushing, I can proceed from there to find a method of permanent attachment. I have tried to hold the fork arms up during a full rotation of 24 hours and the chime goes out of sync with the minute hand If I let it work as it is, after 24 hours the forks are held tightly against a stepped circular ring. This does not allow the chime to operate at all. The next suggestion is to purchase a new movement. I have not contacted the owner as yet to offer the options. New, Silent Chime or crazy glue the shaft to the bushing since parts are not available.
I have reached out to Kieninger but have not received any communication.
Thanks for all the suggestions.
Regards,
wings515

 

[Willie X]

Yes, attached to the hub but you will need to remove it to fix it. Then you will have to readjust the two hooks. The primary hook is the main hook and is normally released every quarter. The secondary hook only releases at the hour, when the high lobe of the 4 lobe came (on the handshaft) lifts it a little higher than normal. A simple arrangement but difficult to adjust on most clocks.

You don't need a new movement unless the old one is worn out. Look up 'checking for wear'.

Willie X

 

[MARK A. BUTTERWORTH]

To clarify what I have found I am going to attach two pictures. The "A" is the shaft controlling the two hook arms. The "B" is the bushing and cracked arm. If I can get agreement from this experienced group about whether this shaft should be attached firmly to the bushing, I can proceed from there to find a method of permanent attachment. I have tried to hold the fork arms up during a full rotation of 24 hours and the chime goes out of sync with the minute hand If I let it work as it is, after 24 hours the forks are held tightly against a stepped circular ring. This does not allow the chime to operate at all. The next suggestion is to purchase a new movement. I have not contacted the owner as yet to offer the options. New, Silent Chime or crazy glue the shaft to the bushing since parts are not available.
I have reached out to Kieninger but have not received any communication.
Thanks for all the suggestions.
Regards,
wings515

View attachment 678070 View attachment 678078

As the Kieninger representative in North America I did send a private message that we do in fact have the part. Possibly it was not received or read. My contact is butterworth@butterworthclocks.com

 

[JeffG]

...or crazy glue the shaft to the bushing...

This does not seem to me like a good application for Crazy Glue. Red Loctite maybe, but the proper (and lasting) repair would be part replacement or soldering. Both of those options require removal of the lever/arbor, but do not involve separating the plates. That should give you a functional clock, but it is still due for a disassembly, cleaning, and oiling.

 

[JimmyOz]

Before you go buying parts, when it may be a new movement that is required or re-bushing, if you have a hot glue gun, put a blob on the end of the lever to hold it and then you can check if it will work or not, the glue will peel off so no harm done.

 

[wingtips515]

Thanks for the comments. If I understand the assembly, I can loosen the collar close to the front face and loosen the first hook arm. This should allow the shaft to be removed. The second hook appears to be activated by friction from the front hook, so there must be some parts between the two hooks. If I am careful, I should be able to disassemble this and inspect what I can do to fix the shaft to the front arm.
Please comment if this is the procedure I should follow.
wings515

 

[JeffG]

Jimmy's hot glue suggestion would be a good diagnostic tool- not a repair, but if you can get things working correctly before spending the time/money/effort then you can watch the correct function over and over (and over) until you understand what is happening with those levers between the plates and how they should line up. Understanding the correct interaction of the parts is the key to a successful reassembly.

 

[wingtips515]

Thank you for the suggestion of the Hot Glue. I tried it and discovered the location of the hook relative to the front cam is critical. Before I spend hours trying different locations, is there a procedure to align the hooks to the front cam? I see the two hooks operate on two different cams.
I have replied to Butterworth asking for confirmation of the broken part replacement. If I can get a replacement, then I have the task of timing the hook to the cams.
Regards,
wings515

 

[JeffG]

One of those hooks is part of a self-correcting system for the chime train.
It should lock into place after the :45 chime sequence and only be released by a cam or pin as the strike train is activated, depending on the movement. If the chime sequence gets out of synch, that hook will keep the chime train from running until the next top-of-the-hour.
I'm sorry that I don't know this particular movement to give you more specific guidance. I'm a newb, too.

 

[wingtips515]

I tried the hot glue but it would not hold for the little bit of shaft protruding from the bushing. I still have to contact the owner to see how far they want to go. They may opt for new movement. I'll wait for them to call back.

wings515

 

[Willie X]

Why wouldn't you remove it and have it soldered.

Adding any kind of glue, lock-tite, super glue, etc. can make soldering difficult.

The adjustment will be done after the repair, not before.

Willie X

 

[wingtips515]

The shaft is steel and the bushing is brass. The only thing that will work on this combination is either welding or brazing. Solder will not adhere to steel for torsional strain.

wings515

 

[Willie X]

I will disagree with that statement.
Willie X

 

[wingtips515]

I have just received a message from Butterworth, he has the part and is $15 plus $10 shipping. It is probably not worth trying to fix it rather than replacing it. Thanks for your suggestion

 

[Willie X]

Just so you know, replacing a movement can have it's problems too. Willie X

 

[Dick Feldman]

As I scanned the conversation on the clock you are working on, I would like to leave a few observations.
First, this board is populated by repair people of all levels and you may likely get some bad advice now and then. Then again, there are hundreds of years' worth of experience hanging around and you should know whose judgement you can trust and which to discard.
Second, I get the impression that you are a rank amateur with clock repair. Clock repair Is not necessarily easy and I sense you are into this project well beyond your capabilities. The movement you are working on is quite complicated.
It has been stated earlier that the movement is old. (Well beyond the lifespan that can be expected). You stated that the operation of the chime train is not reliable. Sometimes works, sometimes not. That is a symptom of a worn movement. The chime train will normally fail (erratic behavior or whatever you would call it) first because it needs the most power. The crack you have mentioned probably is not the cause of failure. If you solve that crack problem, the chime train will likely still not work and be reliable.
Most likely your root problem is lack of power to the train. Lack of power due to wear due to long use. (I have been chastised on this MB for saying worn out)
First and foremost, you should be assured there is ample power to operate the chime train every time.
Have you checked for wear in the movement?
As a novice, your best choice may be to replace the movement with a brand new, identical movement.
That is within the scope of a novice.
That is how I feel,
Dick

 

[wingtips515]

I will disagree with that statement.
Willie X

I think you are referring to silver solder. This indeed will join two pieces of dissimilar metals. Being an EE, I consider solder the kind I use on PC boards. That does not work in this situation.
Dan

 

[wingtips515]

I have purchased the control arm and shaft from Mark Butterworth. The instructions from above and Mark's require the minute hand to be in the :45 position. Since the minute hand has been off and on many times the location is unknown. How do you determine the location of :45 on the minute hand shaft? Also, once I have :45 set, is the primary hook engaged into the cam before chiming starts or at the point where the lift cam is about to lift the primary hook.
Sorry for the dumb questions but I am learning and appreciate all the help I have received.
Best regards,
wings515

 

[Willie X]

Kinda learning ...

In the wonderful world of clock repair, it is common practice to soft solder steel to brass. I do this several times per week. Also, most antique french clocks came from the factory with brass wheel hubs soft soldered to steel shafts. They are still working fine 120 years later.

I don't like to argue but I don't like to see misinformation spread around either.

Willie X

 

[wingtips515]

I bow to your eeperience. As I recall, the auto industry would soft solder steel body parts before the introduction of Bondo. The art of "leading" became lost when polymers were the easy way out.
wings515

 

[Dick Feldman]

First and foremost, you should be assured there is ample power to operate the chime train every time.
Have you checked for wear in the movement?

Ahem, "Can you hear me now?"
D

 

[shutterbug]

You weren't entirely wrong, Wingtips. Soft solder on high torsion parts like mainspring wheels/arbors won't hold. But it does have many uses in other areas that are under less stress.

 

[wingtips515]

I received the part from Butterworth on Saturday, two days before the scheduled delivery. You can never understand the USPS. Some things arrive early and others many days late.
In any case I got to work on the clock this PM. Adjusting the time to the :45 position with the hour set to 12 that allowed all the parts in front of the defective piece to be out of the way. Noticing the attachment screw on the Primary arm was slightly buggered I thought someone else was in here before. I removed all the bushings and arms from the shaft and out it came. I had measured the distance between the internal bushings so I knew how far apart they had to be on assembly. Making sure the Primary arm was located in the cam detent, I tightened the two screws and replaced the weights I had removed so movement would not happen during disassembly. Much to my surprise, all chiming occurred at the correct time and the hour chime worked perfectly.
Thanks to all who gave instructions and guidance during this learning experience and to Mark and Jeff G your instructions fit perfectly.
Now to let it run for a few days checking on it periodically to verify complete functionality.

Regards,
wings515