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How to split this Gilbert

Lynsey

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Ok, I give up. How do I split this bugger apart? Thanks so much!!!

Gilbert how to split.JPG
 

Lynsey

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Front in situ and two sections of the back. There is an actuating lever outside front on the center arbor. There is a tapered pin holding a gear on the center arbor between the plates. Then, you have this two pin external thingy that appears pressed on to T2.
Thanks again.

Gilbert ft 1.jpg Gilbert back 1.jpg Gilbert back2.jpg Gilbert lever.jpg Gilbert pin.jpg
 

Uhralt

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Not quite sure what your problem is. The two pin thingy is the lift wheel for the hammer. Take it off by prying with two paint can openers from opposite sides. Also take off the hammer assembly. The rest should be straight forward.

Uhralt
 

R. Croswell

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You need to carefully pry off the disk with the pins and the little thing on the center arbor on the back. Then do like any other spring powered movement, restrain and let down springs, etc. that little thingy is the half-hour actuater and has to go back in the same position.


RC
 

Lynsey

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There is something seriously wonky here. When looking at the back of the movement, the strike side spring is nicely loose. Wiggles when asked.
The time side spring is stuck hard. Will not wiggle. I have both restrained. I fear popping this apart and have something go Kablooey.
The time spring is 80% to the bottom and looks angry.

I have gotten off the pin thing successfully. All is photographed previous to takedown.
 

bangster

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With the two thingies off, they should separate normally. There may be little helper springs that need detached. But No kablooey.

Can we see the front of the movement?
 
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shutterbug

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Did you remove that nut on the front? Many clocks have one on the front of the movement.
 
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Lynsey

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Here we go. It was a two part issue. First, the spring clamp had ahold of a little post in addition to the spring. That is what was making the spring stuck.
Secondly, yeah, well, there was one nut that I neglected to remove. Yes, bangster, it was the front nut. Red faced now. Here is the pic that Bangster requested.
No laughing please. I am a newbie and am still trying to get a system in place for elimin....er, reducing errors.

Anyway, moving on....I have a cracked gear. Can you please tell me what is supposed to spin on this arbor and what is not supposed to move? The symptom of the dismantling was due to the minute hand being very hard to move from the 3 to the 9, and very easy to move from the 9 to the 3. It gave me memories of the New Haven that you folks helped me fix with the cracked cannon gear. Thoughts please?

Gilbert Gear1.jpg Gilbert gear underside.jpg Gilbert ft 1.jpg
 

Lynsey

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Thanks very much, RC. I did find it on T/S as you said. Yes, you all helped me to repair a gear and it came out beautifully. Next question I suppose is how to get it off? Sorry for all of the hand holding, but I appreciate it very much.
 
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bangster

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That "little post" is to restrict the MS from expanding too far in that direction. VERY easy to get it caught under the restraint.
 

Lynsey

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Bangster, you are not kidding there. RC - Does the arbor stay right there where it is, attached to the plate? Does the new pinion get slid on or slid on and Loc-Tited there? I am not clear as to what should spin and what should stay stationary. Thanks a million.
 

Uhralt

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Bangster, you are not kidding there. RC - Does the arbor stay right there where it is, attached to the plate? Does the new pinion get slid on or slid on and Loc-Tited there? I am not clear as to what should spin and what should stay stationary. Thanks a million.
The cracked pinion should be a friction fit on the arbor. It should spin with the arbor but not on the arbor. If you decide to get a new one, you will have to open up the hole a bit for a nice friction fit. If you try to press it on as is, it may crack again.

Uhralt
 

shutterbug

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I have found the same thing. I think that's the reason its such a big problem with Gilbert clocks. They used too much force to put them on at the factory, creating un-needed stress in the gear which eventually breaks it. It should go on firmly, but you shouldn't need hundreds of pounds of pressure to get it on.
And Lynsey - don't call me bangster! :D
 

Lynsey

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Is this one of those situations where it might be okay to repair it as I did before (the solder and Loctite route)? My clock, my time, my doozie. Trouble is...the crack is different that the one before. This crack goes north and south as well as east and west. Hmmmm. What to do..what to do? RC's suggestion of replacement does seem appealing though.
 

R. Croswell

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Bangster, you are not kidding there. RC - Does the arbor stay right there where it is, attached to the plate? Does the new pinion get slid on or slid on and Loc-Tited there? I am not clear as to what should spin and what should stay stationary. Thanks a million.
The cannon pinion is tight on the center shaft and was originally pressed on far enough to partly compress the tension spring. when the cannon pinion cracks it no longer grips the center shaft and slips so it should slip off easily. The new replacement part will have a hole that is probably a bit undersized that will require broaching slightly to get a good fit, The "good fit" is tight enough that it will need to be forced on until the tension spring is partly compressed.

Loctite is not required to install the new pinion. Any attempt to "repair" the broken cannon pinion must include a way to secure it tightly to the center shaft against the force of the tension washer.

My preference would be top bore out the damaged pinion on a lathe and install a bushing that would be pressed onto the shaft. The solder repair is usually satisfactory unless one is concerned about being able to disassemble this part.

RC

gilbert-ctr-1.jpg gilbert-ctr-2.jpg

Is this one of those situations where it might be okay to repair it as I did before (the solder and Loctite route)? My clock, my time, my doozie. Trouble is...the crack is different that the one before. This crack goes north and south as well as east and west. Hmmmm. What to do..what to do? RC's suggestion of replacement does seem appealing though.
It would help if you can provide a picture of the cracked part after you get it apart. Generally, I do not believe it practical to attempt to solder the actual crack. You face two issues with this repair - first is closing the crack so the spacing of the teeth remain uniform, second, securing the cracked pinion in place so the tension of the spring cannot cause it to move. I would not use Loctite for this repair. Generally the crack will close when the pinion is removed. You will want to broach it out so that it is a slip fit on the shaft (to prevent the crack from being forced open again). Then, while the assembly is still apart, slide back the spring retainer a bit so there will be no tension, then solder the damaged pinion to the shaft in its original position. Finally move the spring retainer against the tension spring until it is partly compressed....... hope for the best.

RC
 
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shutterbug

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I have bushed the center of them and soldered the bushing into the gear. It's a lot of work, but very strong. A new gear is less work, and not too expensive. I keep one in stock, because it's a very common issue with Gilbert's.
 

Lynsey

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Thank you, RC and Shutterbug! I have my work cut out for me. I appreciate your help. Lynsey
 

R. Croswell

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I have bushed the center of them and soldered the bushing into the gear. It's a lot of work, but very strong. A new gear is less work, and not too expensive. I keep one in stock, because it's a very common issue with Gilbert's.
That in, my opinion, is the preferred method (unless an original undamaged part is available) and is what I usually do.

RC
 

Lynsey

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Thank you, RC. I have decided it would be best to just replace it. Methinks it has too many issues to repair. As you said, it slipped off. But I did not expect it to have a sleeve (?) on one side. I hope the one from Timesavers is identical. The size and tooth count is correct, although I got .48" to be exact. They do not offer two views of the product in the catalog.

The arbor assembly does not look like yours exactly.

Am I supposed to take the arbor off of the plate, if so, how? I hate to keep fiddling with something so delicate trapped in the plate like that.

It looks like a bugger to have to press that new pinion on and keep tight tension on that retainer on the underside at the same time. I tried to get it back on and it would not get tight to the retainer.

Do you disassemble the whole arbor assembly and start from scratch somehow?

I should have not ventured outside of my comfortable New Haven, PHS, Waterbury sandbox. "For want of a nail....", a nut had me stymied, remember?
If this is kicking my derriere, that Ansonia will institutionalize me and I won't get to play with sharps or projectiles. :confused:

When time presents itself, I would appreciate your advice. Lynsey

gear off1.jpg gear off 2.jpg gear off 3.jpg gear off4.jpg
 

R. Croswell

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...... As you said, it slipped off. But I did not expect it to have a sleeve (?) on one side. I hope the one from Timesavers is identical.
That is correct and the one from Timesavers should be identical except you may have to broadh the inside diameter slightly to get it on.

Am I supposed to take the arbor off of the plate, if so, how?
Yes, the little half-hour gizmo on the end of the arbor will just pry off and you can remove the arbor from the plate.

It looks like a bugger to have to press that new pinion on and keep tight tension on that retainer on the underside at the same time. ........Do you disassemble the whole arbor assembly and start from scratch somehow?
No need to disassemble anything (except the broken gear). Make sure the tension washer and larger gear are in place then just press the new gear on from the front end. Press it on until you see it begin to compress the tension spring and you are done. When you press the gear on put a piece of hard wood under the pivot on the other end. A length of small copper or brass tubing that will slip over the shaft will help you press the gear on. You can use a vice or drill press to press it on. A hammer would work but if you get the gear on too far and flatten the tension spring it will be very hard to turn the minute hand when setting the clock. You don't want to bugger up the new gear, so a small washer between the gear and the driving tube is a good idea. Most important thing is judging whether and how much the new gear needs to be broached out. It has to be tight but it could bust if you get it too tight. Too loose and it wont stay in place. If you are using a tapered broach, open the hole just enough so the large end of the hole just wants to barely start on to the arbor and it should tighten up about right as the arbor passes through the small end of the broached opening. It is just something one has to experience and get the feel for unless you have some very precise measuring tools.

RC

[Edit:] I don't recall you having a lathe, but if you do, you can open the chuck just enough to allow the shaft to slip through and insert the pivot loosely in a tail chuck and use the tail stock to press the gear on. You could also place a protective washer next to the gear and extend the shaft between the jaws of a vice and press the other end of the arbor (not the pivot, but the arbor) using your drill press. Just make sure to start the gear on straight.
 
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THTanner

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What is the reason these crack so often? Is it just too stressed to begin with? And when replacing them what is the best way to avoid recreating that issue?
 

R. Croswell

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What is the reason these crack so often? Is it just too stressed to begin with? And when replacing them what is the best way to avoid recreating that issue?
Good question and while we can speculate that the cause is poor quality control, original fit too tight, original brass too hard or contained a defect, we will probably never know for sure. This problem is common with Ingraham and Gilbert models.

RC
 

shutterbug

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You can use a hollow punch to press them back on in a pinch. Brace the shaft and tap the pinion on with a hammer. Be sure to strike straight down, so the shaft doesn't get bent. You want the fit to be firm, but not so tight that it takes great effort to install. Also RC's point about when to stop is important too.
Remember that you can always remove it to broach a bit more, so do that part slowly until you learn how they should feel.
 

Lynsey

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Thank you all so very much! I have removed the half hour gizmo as RC suggested. As I said before, the reason I dug into this was the funny feel of the minute hand. I was playing with the abor and gear and discovered that when rotating the pinion gear on the arbor against the larger gear, it was binding up for 50% of the way and loose the other 50%. That is exactly what I was feeling when moving the minute hand.

No, no lathe on premises.

I will order the new gear now. I will follow your directions to the T when it arrives and the brasses are cleaned up! Thanks so much, to each and every one for your generosity in helping me.
 

THTanner

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Good question and while we can speculate that the cause is poor quality control, original fit too tight, original brass too hard or contained a defect, we will probably never know for sure. This problem is common with Ingraham and Gilbert models.

RC
I was wondering if a slightly loser fit - still snug but not too tight - with a solder ring like the one you showed above might be a better solution? I am working a Gilbert mantle without an issue in the pinion but was wondering how to best repair one when it eventually comes up.
 

R. Croswell

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I was wondering if a slightly loser fit - still snug but not too tight - with a solder ring like the one you showed above might be a better solution? I am working a Gilbert mantle without an issue in the pinion but was wondering how to best repair one when it eventually comes up.
Solder isn't required and if the fit is correct there won't be any problem. Some here consider solder to be a "hack job", although I personally believe it does have its place for some repairs. The obvious problems with doing as you suggest, other than attracting the attention of the solder police, are that it will be difficult to disassemble in the future, and maintaining proper tension against the spring during the soldering process. The heat from soldering will likely expand the pinion and it could slip during the operation. Now if Lynsey should manage to broach the opening too large, then soldering would be an option to consider but I would first back off the collar that retains the tension spring. I've seen these that have been successfully soldered. including the example pictured.

RC
 
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THTanner

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Solder isn't required and if the fit is correct there won't be any problem.
I have two of these pinions from Timesavers in the spare parts bins but I have yet to replace one. I am sure it will be a learning experience. Thanks for your advice - as always.
 

Lynsey

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Make sure the tension washer and larger gear are in place then just press the new gear on from the front end. Press it on until you see it begin to compress the tension spring and you are done. When you press the gear on put a piece of hard wood under the pivot on the other end. A length of small copper or brass tubing that will slip over the shaft will help you press the gear on. You can use a vice or drill press to press it on. A hammer would work but if you get the gear on too far and flatten the tension spring it will be very hard to turn the minute hand when setting the clock.
RC- I fully understand your instructions here. But I have a dumb, nagging question. Why is this method preferred over taking the tension washer and pin out, pressing the gear on, and reinstalling the washer and pin?
 

shutterbug

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If yours has a pin, you can do it like that, Lynsey. Some don't have the pin, and the spring goes under the pinion.
 

Lynsey

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The order that mine is configure is the pin, tension washer, large gear and then the replacement pinion. BUT, I have a lever 3/4 of an inch from the pin. I don't know if this little lever is pressed on, born there or what so I was not going to question the original replacement instructions that RC gave me.

This little lever seems like it is pressed on for life. The lever is exactly what you see in RC's first photo in post #19.
 

shutterbug

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Don't mess with that other lever. That will effect when the strike starts. That doesn't look like something you can do any other way than what RC outlined.
 

Lynsey

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Since I needed a break, I decided to proceed with replacing the pinion gear I purchased 2 months and 11 days ago. I reread the past posts and headed to the shop. Oy. This is the Gilbert Tambour Style Mantel Clock, almost pristine woodwork to boot.

I pressed the gear on properly. Raise the flag. Here are the dirty details for other newbies. I had to make a new pin for the arbor as the other one broke. Had to use electric fence wire as I had nothing that was close to the proper size. I really need to buy an assortment of tapered pins. I adjusted the 3 little feet on the pressure washer as they looked a tad flat. Pros please turn away now.

As instructed, I broached the original orifice of the new gear. Broach, fit, broach, fit ad infinitum. In hindsight, I should have broached more. Please, people, pay attention to the side you are broaching. Do not let the raccoon syndrome take effect and file the wrong side.
I put a small but long socket into the drill press, making sure it was long enough and the proper size to press the gear all the way down to proper position. I verified that there was nothing inside of the socket to cause grief, no shoulders, debris, etc.
I found a rubber washer but switched it out for a conventional washer and placed it on top of the gear.
I put a piece of dimensional oak down for the end of the arbor to eat. You have to pay attention to what you are doing, there is a little "finger" at the bottom and you don't want to mug that up. You must press a little and regroup and reposition, press and regroup and reposition or you will snap that finger off, I would imagine.
I pressed and pressed until I was happy with the results. The socket does disappear up into the drill press, but don't fret. Just make sure you are straight and plumb in all you do and you will be fine. Just go slowly and be deliberate in your movements. Now I am faced with reassembly. Oh, this is not going good so far.

Thank you all for your expertise and encouragement. I will return victorious or pleading for help! Lynsey the Doozie King
 
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kinsler33

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You did fine. I generally put a drop of red Loctite thread-locker on the crack when I encounter this problem. This bonds the gear to the shaft and you're done. If you do it wrong, which I did the first time, you trot over to the gas stove (I've since bought a little butane torch from Harbor Freight Tools) and heat the afflicted part until it emits evil-smelling smoke, then let it cool and take it apart to clean the burned-up Loctite out. Doesn't hurt the brass.

Yes, the two teeth that live on either side of the crack will be farther apart than the others, but we're not repairing a truck transmission here: these things are made so loosely that the hour wheel will run as smoothly as it ever did. Were I to purchase a new pinion, however, I'd do what I do with all cannon pinions, which is to ream out the center hole to a slip fit, slide it into place, and secure it with said Loctite. For grandfather clocks I use the blue variety of Loctite, which is of medium strength and thus won't cause difficulty when the next practitioner removes the cannon pinion.

Electric fence wire is perfectly fine for this use. Nails, too. Tapered pins are not always so great because they can fall out.

Pressing stuff in with the drill press is perfectly permissible. I did purchase a Harbor Freight arbor press, but that's because my drill press is a tad elderly and feeble. On a couple of clocks I've had to use the hydraulic press that lives out in the garage.

Re-assembly is something you get better at as you progress through life. One caution about Ingraham clocks and several others, which is to preserve, protect, and defend that lousy hour-glass-shaped hand nut. I've never been able to find any thread that'll fit that shaft.
 

Lynsey

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I do not recall having this much grief 2 months ago. I gleefully put this back together after I diagnosed it. This is one of those silly upside down plate movements where you have to put it back together backside up which is maddening for me. I am grateful I do not have to deal with the New Haven spring wrapped around the plates escapades. Maybe this is worse with the two levers wire wrapped around each other instead. I have a Gilbertonian headache about now.

The electric fence wire was giving me fits until I gave up and just bent each end around the arbor, and said to heck with it. I was thinking the wire had to be hard enough to support the spring washer equally and level on both sides.

This devil has a hand nut shaped exactly like a hub cap. I am going to preserve the original pinion gear for possible rejuvenation. Thank you, Kinsler33, for your encouragement!

Update: I discovered that my springs were giving me the fits. I added fence wire to get them under control.;) It was almost a joy to reassemble...wait...who said that?

Update: I got it all back together and am fighting that count wheel coordination battle once more. Aggravation compounded by my first gear slice, forgetting to secure the two post levers with their respective wires and trying force my limited knowledge to the top to determine exactly why this won't work. The thing IS in the slot and the other thing IS in the cutout.....I swear. :mad:
spring control.jpg
 
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shutterbug

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This is one of those silly upside down plate movements where you have to put it back together backside up which is maddening for me.
I almost always assemble movements with the back side up. I find it easier.
"The thing is in the slot, and the other thing is in the cutout" .... and the stop pin is positioned at the stop lever? ;)
 

Lynsey

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Thank you, Mr. Kinsler for your kind words.

Shutterbug - That, my friend may be the missing link. Now I have to go refresh my memory as to what that is exactly. Stop pin/stop lever. Got it.
Thanks for your help.

The problem with re-assembly is if you split it with side A up, study it, photograph it, disarticulate the works and then find you have to reassemble with side B up, because some doohicky or other does not come out of the plate; you are in a totally unholy mess. Trying to invert pictures that your tablet thinks you don't want inverted, flipping your notes upside down and praying you did actually note which wheels were lantern side up or lantern side down.

I don't mean to drag up painful memories for you professionals, but this is the world of the newbie and by jiminy, I want to make it clear to them, right off the bat, that they will bleed from their eyeballs!
 

shutterbug

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LOL! You can loosen the upper corner nut, spread the plates a little, remove the fan, disengage the pinion of the stop wheel and turn it to position. It usually takes several tries to get it right. Be sure the springs are let down when you do it.
Next time, try disassembling with the front down too. Then your pictures will be less confusing ;)
 

kinsler33

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Mark the wheels. I use the edge of a screwdriver to mark S1, S2, S3 or C1, C2, C3 or T1, T2, T3 on each wheel as I remove it. I lightly engrave the rim of the wheel on the side that I see when the plate is removed. Once the wheels have spent some time in cleaning solution and have been liberally handled you need a loupe and patience to find those markings again, but they save a lot of time. Some French clocks seem to have the wheels already marked, though I don't remember if we ever settled that in a discussion we had here. Occasionally you'll find wheels that a long-deceased practitioner has already marked for you, but the systems used by others can be more trouble to learn than it's worth.

I generally don't have to mark the pivot holes, though I did at first. I wish there were reliable yet removable wheel markers, but I haven't come across a reasonable method just yet. Just be neat about it and the clock gods will forgive you. And don't use a punch to mark the wheels, though you'll see that occasionally, because you can distort the soft brass.
 

Lynsey

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Thank you so much, Shutterbug! Here's my dilemma. I believe that is what I have been doing to get the lever in the slot at the same time the other lever is in the count wheel. I thought I was safe enough and that is when the zing, zip, slasher movie began. I have go look up 'stop wheel' , 'stop pin' and 'stop lever'. I have been doing battle with an obstinate Ansonia for months now and have forgotten all proper terminology and anatomy.

There is a little lever on the same post as the count wheel lever, it sits closest to the back plate, snuggled near the fan. It does nothing presently. I think that is what you are telling me to address. If so, where do you want that pin to be? Sorry to be such a dense moron, but I am still rejoicing from pulling a dog hair out of the bottom of my foot where it has resided for the past 4 days.
 

Lynsey

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Mr. Kinsler you are so right. I did that for the first few movements, I joyously unleashed my electric engraver on them then felt guilty about marking them up. I then resorted to measuring each wheel and noting which side was installed in what orientation. Then my ego took over and I just separated them by Time and Strike. I guess I was not ready to leave the porch and party with the big dogs just yet. Time to dust myself off and get back in the saddle and start from cavalettis again.

Shutterbug- when I disassemble with the front down, everything falls out before I can document! :eek: Been bitten by that bug before!!! :) Ok. Let me go and see what trouble can find me. Thanks to everyone.
 

shutterbug

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The stop pin is on the wheel under the fan. It also serves as the warning stop. At the end of the strike, when the count hook enters the deep slot, another lever drops with it. It's usually shaped a little like the blade of a hoe or similar. That needs to encounter the stop pin and stop the train. Some movements don't have that arrangement, but most do. Pretty sure yours does.
 

shutterbug

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This might help. It stops the fan in this one, but read the written part for an explanation. Neither of these are exactly what you have, but I think you'll see what happens.
 

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