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Help How to repair a deformed verge pivot?

captainclock

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Hello everyone, I ordered the other day from Timesavers a new verge assembly and it came in the mail yesterday and so when I went to install the verge assembly into my Column and Cornice clock (the previous one broke on me) the pivot hole was not formed right on the outermost pivot (the one facing the back of the clock dial that the verge retaining clip sets on) and so I tried to see if I could fix it by drilling it out with a 1/16" drill bit attached to my 20v DeWalt Cordless Drill, and it turns out that apparently a 1/16" bit is too big because when I tried to install the verge assembly onto the clock the verge was too loose of a fit then.

Also what diameter is the hole on those verge pivots? 1/16" is too big, and when I checked the hardware store the smallest drill bits they had was 1/16" they didn't get any smaller than that unfortunately.

My question is, how do I go about repairing that verge pivot hole so that its the correct diameter and without having to install a bushing?

Any help would be appreciated.
 

wow

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Without a bushing? You need to measure the pivot and install the smallest OD bushing you can. You will need to broach or ream the hole for the bushing. Do you have bushings?
We need photos of the movement.
 

captainclock

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Without a bushing? You need to measure the pivot and install the smallest OD bushing you can. You will need to broach or ream the hole for the bushing. Do you have bushings?
We need photos of the movement.
To be more specific about the part I'm talking about, I'm talking about the holes on the "saddle" of the verge that goes into the verge holder stud on the movement.
See pictures below.

As far as bushings go, no I don't have any and I don't have the tools to install them, which is why I wanted to try and fix this WITHOUT having to install bushings.

The verge assembly that is pictured below was the one out of my parts movement I bought on ebay recently to get my clock going, which I was going to use that verge assembly on my clock but it was damaged (which is why there is solder on it, which was done by the previous owner as it was like that when I got it.)

20220123_233244.jpg
 

bruce linde

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if the piece was wrong you should have called timesavers and had them send a replacement.

"how do i fix without installing a bushing" is like saying "how do i make the car run without putting gas in it"… cars need gas to run. addressing issues with holes when repairing clocks requires bushings.

and, you can't insure absolute alignment using a handheld cordless drill… those holes have to be the right size and perfectly true. you always want to drill a hair smaller than you need and then broach to perfection… but you need broaches… and bushings…. and other essential tools and supplies.

have you read this article? https://mb.nawcc.org/wiki/Encyclopedia-Subjects/Clock-Repair/Bushing-Using-Hand-Tools
 
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captainclock

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if the piece was wrong you should have called timesavers and had them send a replacement.

"how do i fix without installing a bushing" is like saying "how do i make the car run without putting gas in it"… cars need gas to run. addressing issues with holes when repairing clocks requires bushings.

and, you can't insure absolute alignment using a handheld cordless drill… those holes have to be the right size and perfectly true. you always want to drill a hair smaller than you need and then broach to perfection… but you need broaches… and bushings…. and other essential tools and supplies.

have you read this article? https://mb.nawcc.org/wiki/Encyclopedia-Subjects/Clock-Repair/Bushing-Using-Hand-Tools
I know very well about that stuff, but I don't have the money to spend on those tools, last time I checked over at timesavers and other related places those tools were not cheap, $50-$100 for those tools, plus I don't even know how to tell what type of bushing tools I would need, they have KWM and Bergeon style bushings and tools, how do you even know what kind of bushings you need to use on your clock?

Also they talk about needing a Drill press for these tools, I don't have the space nor the money to devote to a dedicated drill press (last I checked a drill press takes up a lot of space which I don't have at my place, and they cost close to a $1,000 for a good quality drill press.)

Look, you guys are acting like its my fault that my clock was poorly maintained over the course of its 160+ year history, and its not, the previous owners of this clock (which for the first 100 years of this clock's history was a church and I would not expect a church, especially not one the size of the one that owned this clock to have the funds to properly maintain this clock) and then the last 60+ years of this clock's history the clock was owned by my great-grandfather who as far as I know never had it running, and used it as decoration (perhaps because of the fact that it was in such bad shape and would of cost too much to get it up and running again.)

Plus like I said I'm not made of money like you guys seem to be, I have disabilities, so I can't work a full time job, I work a part time job and most of my money goes to gas, groceries, and other related items, and rent and utilities on top of that.
I don't have much money to use to spend on taking this clock in and having it properly repaired, which is why I was trying to repair it myself.

I believe I told you guys previously that every clock repairman near me wanted to charge me $600 or more to properly repair this clock which I don't have that kind of money to throw at this clock.

Also I don't trust sending this clock (or just the movement for that matter) to someone that lives 300 miles away from me that I don't know, and then the possibility of not getting the movement back (I made this mistake before when I sent with a friend of my housemate's a rare 1970 Sony Digimatic Clock Radio that was having some issues with the alarm portion of the unit and he never even gave it back to me, or even let me know if he was able to get it going or not.)
 
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steamer471

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Captain, don't be so hard on the guys here they more than glad to help you. The problem as I see it is what your asking is the equivalent to trying to fix a Television and all I have is a chisel and a hammer. Proper tools come with time. There is a tutorial here on how to bush by hand and plenty of recommendations on bushing assortments to start with. In you situation I would first invest in a inexpensive caliper and measure the saddle pin. https://www.harborfreight.com/6-in-composite-digital-caliper-63586.html Good tools accumulate over time and with your limited budget I would study here and purchase slowly, over time, the tools you need. Lots to be learned here and if you take your time you can accomplish your goal. If you don't have a local chapter or a mentor then studying here and not being afraid to ask questions or consider the advice here will be a great way to help on the way. Good luck and I hope you get you clock running!
 
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Vernon

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Timesavers sells those saddles. You could also swap parts from the old one or make your own if you are crafty. As far as KWM and Bergeon, those are just different bushing systems (though somewhat similar). Pick one and go with it when you are ready to try bushing.

Vernon
 
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shutterbug

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You can often get a tighter fit by widening or narrowing the tabs too. That makes the holes seem smaller to the pin ;) In a pinch, you could solder a piece of thin brass over one side of the hole and re-drill it.
 

Jerry Kieffer

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I know very well about that stuff, but I don't have the money to spend on those tools, last time I checked over at timesavers and other related places those tools were not cheap, $50-$100 for those tools, plus I don't even know how to tell what type of bushing tools I would need, they have KWM and Bergeon style bushings and tools, how do you even know what kind of bushings you need to use on your clock?

Also they talk about needing a Drill press for these tools, I don't have the space nor the money to devote to a dedicated drill press (last I checked a drill press takes up a lot of space which I don't have at my place, and they cost close to a $1,000 for a good quality drill press.)

Look, you guys are acting like its my fault that my clock was poorly maintained over the course of its 160+ year history, and its not, the previous owners of this clock (which for the first 100 years of this clock's history was a church and I would not expect a church, especially not one the size of the one that owned this clock to have the funds to properly maintain this clock) and then the last 60+ years of this clock's history the clock was owned by my great-grandfather who as far as I know never had it running, and used it as decoration (perhaps because of the fact that it was in such bad shape and would of cost too much to get it up and running again.)

Plus like I said I'm not made of money like you guys seem to be, I have disabilities, so I can't work a full time job, I work a part time job and most of my money goes to gas, groceries, and other related items, and rent and utilities on top of that.
I don't have much money to use to spend on taking this clock in and having it properly repaired, which is why I was trying to repair it myself.

I believe I told you guys previously that every clock repairman near me wanted to charge me $600 or more to properly repair this clock which I don't have that kind of money to throw at this clock.

Also I don't trust sending this clock (or just the movement for that matter) to someone that lives 300 miles away from me that I don't know, and then the possibility of not getting the movement back (I made this mistake before when I sent with a friend of my housemate's a rare 1970 Sony Digimatic Clock Radio that was having some issues with the alarm portion of the unit and he never even gave it back to me, or even let me know if he was able to get it going or not.)
Since your close to the south side of Chicago, I would suggest that you contact the closest chapter and seek assistance from a close by member.

Jerry Kieffer
 
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ChimeTime

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My experience with these replacement verges is that you need use a bushing ream to get the pivot holes sized correctly. These type parts are "universal" and Timesavers can't possibly know the diameter you need. Thus, some fitting is required.

Contact me via PM and I'll see what I can do to help, but keep in mind that the 2-way postage is likely more than a replacement part.
 

Joe Somebody

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Captain,

We all understand money doesn't grow on trees! You may find some alternative places to find tools cheap. Look in resale shops, estate sales, goodwill, salvation army, and it will take time, but you can find alot of these things in your price range.
Many tools are not only for clocks, they are just small tools!
You may find getting out to these places helps you relax and enjoy the little things a bit more too. I like these kind of things, hopefully you will too.
Let the search begin!
Regards,
Joe
 
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Willie X

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I would suggest you start over and order a set of broaches along with two replacement verge assemblies Small holes are adjusted using broaches, not drills. However, you will eventually need a set of small numbered drills for clock work ...

Also, please post two good photos of your movement: one with the old verge and one with the present verge installed on your clock. This will allow the listers to see if you are ordering the correct replacement verge assembly.

Willie X
 

bruce linde

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there are ways to be very cost-effective in accomplishing what you need to do… But you’ll need to do a bit of homework upfront. One of the things you really should have in your arsenal… And they’re only 20 bucks… Is a set of digital calipers. You can get those from Amazon. They will allow you to figure out the OD… Outer diameter… And I D… Inner diameter of bushings and holes that need bushings. I must use my calipers a dozen times a day. All of us understand how much expenses involved and that it can seem like a lot… But you take one small step at a time and after a while you look around and realize you’ve accumulated a bunch of tools along with your expertise
 
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captainclock

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OK, and please don't take what I'm trying to say as me trying to be mean, I'm just trying to let you guys know what kind of situation I'm in money wise and why I'm trying to do my own repairs and why I'm trying to do it as cheaply as possible without sacrificing quality too much.

Also the original verge from this clock is long gone it was pitched because there wasn't anyting left of it anymore (the crutch portion of it broke clean off at the verge, and when I tried to repair it using solder it ruined it further.

So all I have are the replacements I had ordered for it of which I had ordered 3 replacements for it so far, one of them I had broken the crutch portion off when I was trying to shape it to the proper shape because I forgot I needed to anneal it first, and then the second one I had annealed like I was supposed to but I was having trouble getting the shape/curve of the crutch correct to get the clock to run at the proper beat/keep the clock running without it stopping prematurely, so eventually the crutch broke after several times of bending and shaping the crutch and so when I tried to work with the amount of crutch assembly that was left (which was about 3" left as opposed to 5" which was the length of the original one) I ended up with not enough to work with and so then I ordered my third one (the one I just got the other day that I mentioned had the deformed holes in the "saddle" portion of the verge assembly) and so when I tried to repair it (the incorrect way apparently) I tried to fix it with some solder but that I don't think is going to work, and I even tried to see if I could of used the verge assembly that came off the parts movement that I ordered on eBay, but the crutch portion of the verge assembly was broken and the previous owner tried to fix it using some solder but it didn't work very good because the crutch is loose on the verge and so because of that I can't adjust the crutch angle on the verge properly.


So the picture I have posted below shows the only two verge assemblies I have left for my Column and Cornice clock, the one on the right is the verge assembly from the parts movement that I got off eBay to get the parts from to repair the strike mechanism on my clock, and the one on the left is the one I had bought the other day from Timesavers that was defective. The reason why I couldn't return the defective verge assembly back to Timesavers was because I had already cut the crutch wire to size and put the hook on the bottom of the crutch wire for the suspension spring to fit in when I realized that the verge was defective so that was when I tried to see if I could fix the hole on the verge so that the verge would fit on the clock better, which was when I figured out that I screwed up. replacement verge assemblies for Seth Thomas Clock.jpg
 

Willie X

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Again, we need to see the movement, with the verge in place, loose or not.

A photo of a part, out of context, has very little meaning. :(

Willie X
 

captainclock

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Well Actually I was able to salvage the verge from my parts movement, I had to use my mini torch and some silver bearing solder to repair the loose crutch assembly and then I had to swap out the original escapement wheel for the parts movement one because the verge from the parts movement had a slightly different shaped "tooth" pattern than the original did, and now its working fine.
Go Figure. :screwball:
 
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captainclock

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Of course once I fix one problem another problem comes up, I had previously gotten the clock's strike train and time train all setup and timed so that it would strike correctly at the correct hour and the correct amount of times and shut off after the right amount of strikes, but then when I had to take the movement apart partially to install the "new" escapement wheel from the donor clock movement and put the movement back together and put the movement back into the clock and went to try and setup the movement the darn strike train got messed up somehow to the point that it was either overstriking the hour by one or more strikes or it would just keep striking until I would move the minute hand past the 11.

I was trying to fiddle around with the count wheel counting lever assembly and I would get it to either get to the point of being able to shut off after a certain amount of strikes, it would overstrike at the 12 o'clock position (instead of shutting off after 12 strikes it would shut off after 13 strikes, meaning it would shut off at the 1 o'clock strike position on the count wheel rather than at the end of the 12 o'clock strike on the count wheel) but yet all of the other hours would strike like they should, and when I would try to correct that error it would go back to continuously striking again or under striking or stopping mid strike.

How would I fix this striking mechanism issue, because it seems that the issue has to do with the stop lever on the count lever for the count wheel its either positioned too high (it doesn't allow the count lever to raise and lower to the right levels for the clock to strike and shut off at the right time thus causing the clock to either over strike or continuously strike) or its positioned too low (which causes the clock to not strike at all or not allow the count lever to raise high enough during the strike which causes the strike mechanism to either jam or stop mid strike), and I can't seem to get the stop lever height adjustment right.

Anyone know what the secret is to getting the strike train to work correctly?
 

Vernon

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It's critical that the hook doesn't touch either end of the deep slot or it will cause the hook to pop out. The warning pin, maintenance lever and deep slot of the strike wheel all need to be in position for the train to stop. Usually, something is just a gnats hair off of adjustment.

Vernon
 

shutterbug

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It's easier to let the spring down and operate the strike by hand. When you slow things down enough, you will see what is happening and why it's not doing the right thing at the right time. Start at the bottom and work up. It's probably something with the lower cam that got moved when you split the plates.
 

captainclock

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It's easier to let the spring down and operate the strike by hand. When you slow things down enough, you will see what is happening and why it's not doing the right thing at the right time. Start at the bottom and work up. It's probably something with the lower cam that got moved when you split the plates.
Again its a weight driven clock, no springs to let down, just remove the weight. anyways I got it figured out finally and now its running as should.
 

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