Help How to level off the new bushing???

Clockinit

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Hello All...Hey I was wondering the best way to level/even off a bushing on the inside of the movement plate when the bushing is thicker than the plate:???:
I am doing a couple of bushings on an URGOS movement for the strike train, for the chain sprocket arbor. The diameter is 4.7, bore is 3.2 but the thinnest I could find, is a height of 2.7 (movement plate is 1.9) Does anyone know who carries bushings with those dimensions? or are the larger diameter bushings always at least that height? With that being said, what is the best way to make the bushing flush with the plate with out doing too much damage to the plate? A chamfer bit
seems to take too much off the inside of the bushing... by time I get the bushing near being flush, it creates a huge 'well' on the new bushing...

Best Regards,
Bob Mac
 

Willie X

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The bushing should be pressed/driven in from the inside of the plate. This will always leave the inside correct, flush with the plate. If the bushing is a little proud, on the outside, you can remove the excess using a file or rotary tool.

Actually, for a winding arbor, longer may be better. Just make sure the arbor can't ride inside the outer edge of the bearing surface and the bushing is very secure in it's hole.

Shim posted some really good photos and descriptions on doing arbor bushings some time back. It would be good for all if someone could locate that old thread.

Willie X
 

Bruce Alexander

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Hello Bob,

Are you using KWM Bushings? If so, the bushings with a height of 1.9mm max out at a diameter of 3.5mm and bore of 2.8mm. If you need to go with your 2.7mm height bushings you can file the excess from the inside of the plate. You could also reduce the height from the outer surface by cutting an oil sink until the height is even with the plate. A round nose mill is good for cutting oil sinks because it doesn't cut a deep "V" reducing the bearing surface too much.

It all really depends on what equipment, tools and instruments you are working with.

To get you started, here's a pretty good Thread that you may find informative: https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/trimming-down-bushings.168412/#post-1360351

Regarding sourcing of bushings. Butterworth Clocks, Inc. is a good supplier.

Any of the clock supply houses can help.

Look over this link: https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/clock-suppliers-general-supply-tools-repair-service-etc-•.171838/

Hope that helps.

Regards,

Bruce
 

wow

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Bob, a bulls foot file will do that kind of thing without scratching up the plate.I made this one. I think you can search this forum and find other examples.
Will

image.jpg
 
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bruce linde

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i use kwm bushings and have a k&d bushing tool... would these work? or does one need a bergeron bushing tool?
 

bruce linde

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Kinda pricey, though.
what's money to a guy like me? oh, yeah... i remember now! :)

i'm thinking about how i might construct a bulls foot file with just a sherline lathe.... maybe Jerry Kieffer can suggest a method for those of us who have lathes but not mills?

think i should have both on hand as this is something i have to deal with regularly.
 

DeanT

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I read that using a piece of old camera film to protect the plate while filing was effective to protect the plates will filing.

Following from that idea, I use the double sided plastic laminating pouches used to laminate paper and cardboard. One side is a little sticky and grips to the plate and the other side is slippery and the file glides over it. Using this method you can easily file the bush to very close tolerance and finish by hand or using oil sink cutters.
 

shutterbug

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I use a flat end mill, like this one. You can usually find one in hardware stores.
If it sits proud on the front plate, as long as the pivot is at least even with the bottom of the oil sink, it's mechanically fine. But if you can't stand the way it looks, cut it down to the front plate. As Willie mentioned, the bushing should always be pushed in from the back side. Never from the front side.
 
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Bruce Alexander

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Good morning SB,

I hear what you're saying and I mostly agree with you, but "Never" and "Horology"? I'm not so sure.

I use flat end and round end mill files too SB, but one has to have the proper equipment.

If working with hand tools, I think the Bull's Foot file will be hard to beat *if* there is room for the file to work. If the front of the plate has interference from nearby posts, etc., one might be forced to seat a bushing from the front of the plate.

I've seen some pretty rough filed bushings on the inside of plates. If forced to choose, better inside than out. Either way, the results are just plain butt ugly.

Regards,

Bruce
 
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shutterbug

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If I can't seat the bushing in my bushing machine, I clamp a flat hollow punch in my bench vice and use it as my support while inserting the bushing with a flat faced hammer. If you insert a bushing from the front, you risk it pushing back out during normal operation. They are compressed less on the side they're inserted from, so you want the arbor pressing against that side.
 

Bruce Alexander

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Yeah, I get that.

I routinely use sleeve retaining compound so that's not really a consideration for me, but I shouldn't forget about it. Even so, bushings can and do push out under certain circumstances. The placement of a tight-fitting Gathering Pallet for example.

In some ways I think routine clock work can be a little like house painting. It can become monotonous but if you let your mind wander off task, things can get sloppy pretty fast. :whistle:

As RC points out, the reversal of unorthodox, failing repairs can be a challenging opportunity to break from the routine.

Regards.


Edit:

Here's an example of a recent movement I've been working with. A Junghans A 07 Westmister. Someone at some time in the clock's history just took a file to the inside of the plates. Looks like crap work to me, but it got the job done. I've got a few bushings to place. I don't think that I'll be spending my time polishing out the old file marks. Life is too short. I just won't be adding to them.

inner plate filing.JPG
 
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Clockinit

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Wow!! All Great advise and thanks ALL for jumping in!! I pushed the bushing in from the back side, but with a staking anvil on the front side to leave it flush on the front side. I thought I would rather do 'damage' to the inside of the plate vs. the outside... I like the ideas of the Bull Foot file and the double sided laminate, as well as Your idea 'Bugsey about the mill file..I have similar Dremel tools like it, and tried using them in the drill, but by hand, it is not an effective way...I am in the process of procuring a used Burgeon Bushing tool..that should help out with this. Also I like the looks of the Burgeon bushing cutter. It seems it would work on the smaller bushings....but larger ones?....
Can a bulls-foot file be purchased? or is it something that will need to be made?

Best Regards,
Bob
 

Bruce Alexander

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Just a quick update on the Junghans movement I posted photos of above. I think that bushing wire was used as some of the bushings are still a little proud when viewed from the front of the plates. This movement has *tiny* pivots. One I bushed earlier today was just 0.5 mm in diameter. I may not like the looks of the little file marks left on the inside surfaces of the plates but someone was probably earning a living doing clock repair. They kept tiny pivots on center using bushing wire. I take back what I said about "crap work". He or she was obviously skilled and probably had to work quite fast. If *I*, leisurely using my current array of supplies, tools and equipment, left such marks behind it would be an example of crappy work. :whistle:
 

bikerclockguy

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I use a flat end mill, like this one. You can usually find one in hardware stores.
If it sits proud on the front plate, as long as the pivot is at least even with the bottom of the oil sink, it's mechanically fine. But if you can't stand the way it looks, cut it down to the front plate. As Willie mentioned, the bushing should always be pushed in from the back side. Never from the front side.
I have a question on this. I started out pressing bushings in from the back side, as is widely advised on the forum. After scratching a couple of plates filing them down flush, I started pressing them in from the front, so if I leave any tool marks, they are on the back side of the plate. I’ve done enough of them now that I’m better at it and rarely leave a mark, but I’m curious as to the reasoning behind this. So far, no problems with the ones I have installed from the front.

EDIT: Found my answer above; didn’t read the whole thread before posting. Sorry, my mistake
 

Bruce Alexander

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I started pressing them in from the front
You might consider using retaining compound on your bushings just to make sure they'll stay put. If your bushings are loose, something is probably wrong with either your tooling or technique, but the retaining compound is kind of like a belt and suspenders approach to me.

I like Loctite 680 but I imagine that any thread/sleeve retaining compound will do just fine. They have a limited shelf life, so I use mine routinely rather than throw it away.

Some probably consider it a waste of time and money. I like the added insurance.

Regards,

Bruce
 
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bikerclockguy

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You might consider using retaining compound on your bushings just to make sure they'll stay put. If your bushings are loose, something is probably wrong with either your tooling or technique, but the retaining compound is kind of like a belt and suspenders approach to me.

I like Loctite 680 but I imagine that any thread/sleeve retaining compound will do just fine. They have a limited shelf life, so I use mine routinely rather than throw it away.

Some probably consider it a waste of time and money. I like the added insurance.

Regards,

Bruce
Sounds like a good fix if you had one that was loose in the bore after pressing it in, but on a “good” installation where the bushing has a tight pressed fit, I would have to wonder how much(if any)of the compound actually winds up between the outer bushing wall and the bore...
 

Bruce Alexander

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Sounds like a good fix if you had one that was loose in the bore after pressing it in, but on a “good” installation where the bushing has a tight pressed fit, I would have to wonder how much(if any)of the compound actually winds up between the outer bushing wall and the bore...
Hello Biker,

That's a fair point.

It's not really a "fix" because there's usually nothing wrong with my bushing preps. However, some bushings fit tighter than others as there are manufacturing tolerances involved. If the fit is too tight even for the low viscosity retainer to remain in contact, no harm done. If any of the retainer remains in contact with the reamed hole and OD of the bushing, I don't have to worry about it and can keep on trucking. As mentioned, it's insurance.

I am convinced that I am able to attain better retention. In applications to bushings which are in the rear plate supporting a gathering pallet, I've never had one push out even when seating a very tight fit GP..

It's just a suggestion, especially if you like to routinely seat your bushings from the front surface of the plate and can not benefit from the compression dynamics that Shutterbug outlined above.

I'm happy with my results and will continue to use it. YMMV.

Regards,

Bruce
 

Mike Phelan

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Right or wrong, I make the bush the same length as the plate thickness, press it in with alloy chops on the vice from the inside edge of the plate, then finally countersink the outside edge.
 

shutterbug

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Right or wrong, I make the bush the same length as the plate thickness, press it in with alloy chops on the vice from the inside edge of the plate, then finally countersink the outside edge.
There is wisdom in doing any length adjustments before inserting ;)
 

Dave T

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There is wisdom in doing any length adjustments before inserting ;)
Right or wrong, I make the bush the same length as the plate thickness, press it in with alloy chops on the vice from the inside edge of the plate, then finally countersink the outside edge.
But that option is only available to those who "roll their own". Otherwise folks like me have to buy them. And then there's the question of which ones to buy. So I tend to buy them thick enough for more than one application.
 

Mike Phelan

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But that option is only available to those who "roll their own". Otherwise folks like me have to buy them. And then there's the question of which ones to buy. So I tend to buy them thick enough for more than one application.
True, Dave. For me I probably only bush four pivots in a year, so if I bought a pile of them I'd probably lose them! :^
 
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shutterbug

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If you have a drill press, you could put your bushing on the lower plate, open the jaws, lower the drill and capture the pivot. Then raise it up, put your favorite emery paper on the lower plate and lower the pivot to grind it down. Use your inventive powers to make an alternative method. I'm sure you will come up with something better than manipulating the pivot length after it's been mounted in the plate :)
 
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Clockinit

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If you have a drill press, you could put your bushing on the lower plate, open the jaws, lower the drill and capture the pivot. Then raise it up, put your favorite emery paper on the lower plate and lower the pivot to grind it down. Use your inventive powers to make an alternative method. I'm sure you will come up with something better than manipulating the pivot length after it's been mounted in the plate :)
'Bugsy I like the sound of that!! I'll get to experimenting with that..making the 'adjustment' before inserting does sound wise :D
 

Jim DuBois

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what's money to a guy like me? oh, yeah... i remember now! :)

i'm thinking about how i might construct a bulls foot file with just a sherline lathe.... maybe Jerry Kieffer can suggest a method for those of us who have lathes but not mills?

think i should have both on hand as this is something i have to deal with regularly.
I milled a slot using a 1/2" mill, about .200" deep. I cut off a no. 4 file and a no. 6 file into 1" lengths. I put a piece of .001" feeler gauge under the file pieces and then bedded the file pieces using epoxy. The feeler gauge holds the file piece up in the housing just enough to give a bit of clearance on the bushings when working the bushing to height. It works ok for me. And the slot could be milled on a lathe if necessary.


20210614_132320.jpg 20210614_132332.jpg
 

shutterbug

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'Bugsy I like the sound of that!! I'll get to experimenting with that..making the 'adjustment' before inserting does sound wise :D
Reading back through it, I kept saying "pivot" when I meant "bushing". Glad you knew what I was talking about anyway ;)
 

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