how to attach

tkmc37

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I have a Friedrich Mauthe box clock from the mid thirties that has the first gear seperated from the arbor, ( spins on top of pinion leaves), and am having trouble figuring out how to reattach.. could someone please guide me to a solution...

thanks in advance

Tim
 

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harold bain

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I've had this problem before, and found the best way to re-attach it is with solder, if you have good skill in that direction.
 

harold bain

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I used Stay-brite on the last one I did. Very little solder needed, and with proper preparation, and heat, it wicks into the joint leaving no signs of it externally.
 

Tinker Dwight

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If it is wicking into the pinion leaves, you are using way to much
solder. The idea as Harold says is to have it wick into the joint,
not make useless blobs on the outside.
Tinker Dwight
 

bangster

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Flux the joint. Snip small bits of solder and put them next to the joint. Apply heat away from the joint, until the heat conducts down to the joint and melts the solder so's it wicks into the joint.
 

R&A

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Stake it back on the proper way.
 

R. Croswell

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Stake it back on the proper way.
I agree. Problem here being the wheel has already 'spun' on the arbor so I believe the first step would be to remove the wheel "close" the hole slightly to a good press fit, then stake between the pinion leaves to lock it from rotating. Personally, I would not object to bedding it in a little JB-Weld for good measure (along with the staking). The main compromising element I see is if the hole in the wheel is at all "wallowed out" - does not have parallel sides - it will be harder to get a good tight fit. The wheel must also be pressed on perpendicular to the arbor like in a drill press.

Not saying that solder won't work but it wouldn't be my first choice.

RC
 

harold bain

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The one I worked on came back again after staking it. Hasn't come back a third time after fixing it with solder.
 

harold bain

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My thought is that it may have been designed to fail when a spring lets go to save the clock from worse damage. At any rate, I've seen at least a couple of these fail
 

R&A

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I've never had a problem with restaking a wheel back in place. I guess it all depends on how you approach a situation. Your tooling and experience and knowledge will always be challenged in the trade.
 

tkmc37

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Admittedly, I am quite new to this, that being said I have been in a highly technical field for my entire adult life, so some things come naturally.. of the things that don't I will generally do a great deal of research before attempting.. clocks have always interested me as I have collected them for around 30 years, deciding to advance my hobby is in my mind a natural progression... I thank all of yall for the timely advice, as I believe the only dumb question is the one not asked..... I will update you guys after my repair!

Thanks ... Tim
 

Jerry Kieffer

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Admittedly, I am quite new to this, that being said I have been in a highly technical field for my entire adult life, so some things come naturally.. of the things that don't I will generally do a great deal of research before attempting.. clocks have always interested me as I have collected them for around 30 years, deciding to advance my hobby is in my mind a natural progression... I thank all of yall for the timely advice, as I believe the only dumb question is the one not asked..... I will update you guys after my repair!

Thanks ... Tim

Tim

I do not often encounter slipping wheels on pinions as the manufactures generally do a good job of mounting the wheels, but nothing will be perfect.
Most of what I encounter have been repaired with soft solder as most have suggested in this thread.
However, as a collector, only you can determine what goes through your mind when you see this type of repair before purchasing a clock.

My personal method of repair is as follows.

(1) Soft solder only has surface adhesion, so in my personal opinion it is not a proper or sound repair even though it may hold for some time if properly applied. Most that I encounter that have been soldered, have a good degree of corrosion since this type of repair is very difficult to clean properly.

(2) I first press off the wheel and remove any soft solder if previously repaired in this manner. If a previous soft solder job is holding, I remove the solder and utilize the original method of securing the wheel per approval/request of the owner.

(3) When a Wheel comes loose the hole is enlarged requiring slightly more metal on the pinion to take up the space. For this, I generally machine the pinion pocket about .005" deeper with a base step that is about .005" larger diameter than the wheel hole per the attached sketch.

(4) Typically with pinion mounting, a groove is either stamped or machined just below the tooth pocket to allow the top of the tooth to more easily tip/mushroom up into the wheel locking it in place during the stamping process. This can also be seen in the attached sketch. I also machine this groove if it exists an additional .005" or so.

(5) when crimping the wheel in place I press press it in a machine vise per the attached photo since it offers a high degree of uniformity and control. To do this, a steel piece of scrap stock is machined per the sketch to properly hold in place for maximum effect. Durning this process, both the front and rear of the wheel are indented by the steel pinion rigidly and permanently locking the wheel in place.

Jerry Kieffer 300310.jpg 300311.jpg
 

harold bain

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A well done solder repair will not show itself on inspection, being invisible.
 

harold bain

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French movements commonly have soldered wheels to arbors. Were they all done wrong??
 

David S

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I am sure I have seen some alarm clocks that appeared to have the large centre wheel/ shaft attached and centred with what looks like lead or solder.

Not sure why it is better to modify a part that wasn't originally made that way, than to use some invisible solder to repair apart that has failed for some reason. We are talking repair, not remanufacturing.

David
 

harold bain

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My first instinct was to re-stake it. I suspect there may be a softer than ideal steel involved with the pinion/arbor, as it just didn't last, back a bit more than a year later with the same problem. Hasn't been back since I soldered it.
 

Jerry Kieffer

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French movements commonly have soldered wheels to arbors. Were they all done wrong??
Harold
I have stated many times that I have no issue replacing soft solder when repairing a movement where it was utilized by the manufacturer.

In this specific type application, I do not use it for three main reasons.

Strength, chance of corrosion and maintaining the value of my own or a customers movement no matter how little its value. Again in this case, the method used was identical to the way it was manufactured.

Jerry Kieffer
 

harold bain

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Jerry, it is different when you are correcting a manufacturing flaw. This repair seldom is needed, but when it is, you have to think, what would be better than as made, which obviously failed.
 

David S

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Jerry,

You mention corrosion. With the correct flux and cleaning this is not an issue for any soldering that I have done. Yes leaving Zinc chloride is not nice or appropriate for these repairs. There are fluxes that can be removed and will not affect the part.

By machining the factory part to less than the original factory specs is not the way that it was originally made. The method is perhaps similar but the part is indeed not to the original spec. I have had many examples where the original...as manufactured ... parts failed due to manufacturing variation.

When I do repairs I discuss the options with my clients. All of my clock customers are willing to go with my recommendations.

When a broken clock comes to me...it doesn't have its original value...when it leaves it has its original function.

But I think this is more about preferences, rather than absolutes. Many of our members are starting out and don't have all the fancy tooling and equipment that some of us do. So as long as they know what might be the "ultimate" solution, I see no reason to not encourage alternate, reliable and fully functional repairs. Again I must stress REPAIR.

Respectfully,

David
 

Jerry Kieffer

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Jerry, it is different when you are correcting a manufacturing flaw. This repair seldom is needed, but when it is, you have to think, what would be better than as made, which obviously failed.
Harold
You are correct in that this type repair is seldom needed. This proves that the design is sufficient except that stamping of the pinion was probably not in this particular part.
I see no reason not to correctly attach the part to the pinion in the same manner as those that did not fail.

David
I have seen all types of soft solder and flux cause corrosion on steel over the years. Some more than others but enough to cause long term concern. Setting that aside, strength is an issue for myself personally and what is an issue for myself will not be passed on to my customers.

In this case I suggested that I typically remove about .005" when restaking a pinion typical to the one shown in the OP`s photo. When you consider the type of movement we are discussing, .005" is well within the manufacturing tolerance of the parts themselves since they have a variance greater than that from part to part not to mention assembly tolerance. .005" for those not familiar is about twice the thickness of a hair.

In the early years I performed as many "Fix it" repairs as anyone. It simply lead to even worse "Fix it" repairs that I now repair free of charge to the original customer explaining the original and new repair in detail.

Now that I have been on both sides of the fence, there is no comparison, believe me.

Jerry Kieffer
 

sdowney717

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I would likely solder it, using plumbing flux and electrical solder.

Perhaps it could be superglued with cyanoacrylate ? that will not show and it will hold.

Clean it well with alcohol or some good solvent.
 

Tinker Dwight

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You need to be careful about mixing fluxes. Rosin flux is a base and
plumbing flux is an acid.
Also, mixing any kind of fluxe makes it harder to clean.
If you expect to use something like super glue you should
use loctite instead.
Tinker Dwight
 

sdowney717

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You need to be careful about mixing fluxes. Rosin flux is a base and
plumbing flux is an acid.
Also, mixing any kind of fluxe makes it harder to clean.
If you expect to use something like super glue you should
use loctite instead.
Tinker Dwight
About the fluxes, what works well and cleans off well is the new water based flux you buy in the plastic white round small container at Home Depot in plumbing department.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Oatey-H-20-1-7-oz-Water-Soluble-Solder-Paste-Flux-301302/100177185
Done plenty of solder jobs using it on various projects. Not enough rosin in the thin electric solder to affect anything I have noticed. And electric solder that actually has some lead in it is best, flows easily.
There is a new kind of electric solder without lead, and that is hard to use.

One advantage of the superglue, it flows well into small spaces, but yes Loctite is also good idea, if you slide the gear up or off to expose the interface and get the glue in there.
 
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R&A

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Super glue and loctite on this job. Seriously< Wow
 

R. Croswell

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........One advantage of the superglue, it flows well into small spaces, but yes Loctite is also good idea, if you slide the gear up or off to expose the interface and get the glue in there.
Loctite isn't just a single product but dozens of different formulas for different uses. Likewise "Super Glue" is a term applied to several different formulations. These are great for their intended purpose but I'm skeptical whether attaching a second wheel to a pinion and arbor is such a purpose.

How many wheels like this have you successfully mounted using Loctite or Super Glue? How long have they held up? How many using 'electrical solder'?

RC
 

matthiasi

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I have used the staking method, solder and Super glue methods successfully on various clocks.
There are literally hundreds of different Loctite formulations, and these are very specific.
I only use ZAP glues. In this case, I would go for ONE drop of the medium thickness (green) bottle, applied with their Z-end nozzle. This stuff is amazing and will stand up to years of service, incl. most oils and even cleaning solutions. Both sides must be cleaned, oil free and dry before gluing. I glued my wife's fav. tea pot with it, coffee cup handles or even broken plates. They all go in a dishwasher and are exposed to high temperatures.

If you can readily stake the wheel, then that is my #1 method. Just depends on how much the wheel has worn. But you need a good staking set and know how to use one.
I'd try soldering 2nd, again, I do not use plumbers solder (that's for plumbers). I only use rosin and a great quality electronic solder that flows very nicely. (I still have rolls of the stuff from a previous life...) Again, you need to know how to solder, either with a torch or a high wattage iron (I have 100 and 200W irons for this stuff). Forget the little irons. For a torch you want to get in and out quickly. As previously mentioned, cut a few strips and let it flow in. You don't want (nor need) globs and goobs of solder.
In some applications, I have used Stay-brite or an equivalent, but you must use the appropriate flux.

As mentioned, a good Superglue will do the trick as well. I've used it in Aerospace applications in areas you'd never think it would work...........
 

R. Croswell

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I have used the staking method, solder and Super glue methods successfully on various clocks....... I only use ZAP glues. In this case, I would go for ONE drop of the medium thickness (green) bottle, applied with their Z-end nozzle....... I glued my wife's fav. tea pot with it, coffee cup handles or even broken plates............
No question that modern adhesives and retaining compounds are great for many applications. But there is a great deal of difference between a teapot or broken plate and the second wheel of an 8-day clock which has a small contact area and forces in several directions simultaneously, including shear forces. Its interesting that you would go for a drop of ZAP green for this repair, but have you ever used it to mount a second wheel of an 8-day clock like this one and if so how many and how long have the repairs lasted? Forgive me for questioning but I'm bothered that no one else has reported using a "super Glue" for this specific repair, and several seem to disagree that it is an appropriate method. Always looking for a better way, but needing a bit more assurance that gluing gears onto arbors is really a practical alternative.

I do not use plumbers solder (that's for plumbers). I only use rosin and a great quality electronic solder that flows very nicely. (I still have rolls of the stuff from a previous life...) Again, you need to know how to solder, either with a torch or a high wattage iron (I have 100 and 200W irons for this stuff).
There really is no such thing as "plumber's solder". Plumbers have a number of available choices. 50/50 tin-lead solder has frequently been called plumber's solder but the product is now banned for plumbing use. Among the lead-free solders used by plumbers is the 95/5 solder. If I had to resort to solder for this job that is one I would consider. It is much stronger than the typical rosin core solder used in electronics. It requires a good flux but flows well if, as you say, one knows how to solder. I find that the rosin flux usually does not do well on steel (repaired a clock last week where someone had attempted to solder a brass wheel to a steel arbor and failed). Rosin flux will burn and not a good choice when soldering with a flame. It is however easy to remove with alcohol if not burnt and is generally not corrosive.

Has anyone else out there successfully mounted a second wheel to a pinion arbor like this using "Super Glue" and had the repair last for several years?

RC
 

matthiasi

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RC- You took my answers from post 29 a little bit out of context.

No question that modern adhesives and retaining compounds are great for many applications. But there is a great deal of difference between a teapot or broken plate and the second wheel of an 8-day clock which has a small contact area and forces in several directions simultaneously, including shear forces. Its interesting that you would go for a drop of ZAP green for this repair, but have you ever used it to mount a second wheel of an 8-day clock like this one and if so how many and how long have the repairs lasted? Forgive me for questioning but I'm bothered that no one else has reported using a "super Glue" for this specific repair, and several seem to disagree that it is an appropriate method. Always looking for a better way, but needing a bit more assurance that gluing gears onto arbors is really a practical alternative.

There really is no such thing as "plumber's solder". Plumbers have a number of available choices. 50/50 tin-lead solder has frequently been called plumber's solder but the product is now banned for plumbing use. Among the lead-free solders used by plumbers is the 95/5 solder. If I had to resort to solder for this job that is one I would consider. It is much stronger than the typical rosin core solder used in electronics. It requires a good flux but flows well if, as you say, one knows how to solder. I find that the rosin flux usually does not do well on steel (repaired a clock last week where someone had attempted to solder a brass wheel to a steel arbor and failed). Rosin flux will burn and not a good choice when soldering with a flame. It is however easy to remove with alcohol if not burnt and is generally not corrosive.

Has anyone else out there successfully mounted a second wheel to a pinion arbor like this using "Super Glue" and had the repair last for several years?

RC
1. In post 29, para. 2, I did mention the order of my preferences for doing this repair.

#1 was staking.
#2 was soft (electronic solder) or hard soldering (Staybrite).
#3 was ZAP Green CA glue aka Superglue.

Plumbers solder to me is a lead free (or nearly lead free) solder. I don't use the stuff except for plumbing work. The electronic solder that I have was used in my previous work as a contract Tech Specialist for the Canadian DND. It has been up to the task in all respects where I have used it (2nd wheels in some antiques, a few wheels in Junghans/Kienzle's (can't remember which ones at present)Various barrels, levers etc.). They have held up for quite a number of years. My general preference is hard soldering, but one has to know its' limitations, especially in respects to the higher heat required, metal annealing and compatibility of the various metals with the brazing material being used. Hence my using Staybrite or similar, low temp silver solders or brazing. I don't hard solder stuff on chromed or plated arbours etc. for obvious reasons.

2. My reference to the Teapot and broken dishes were to illustrate that this CA glue will hold, even at elevated temperatures. Note that applying higher heat with a torch or large soldering iron can break a CA bond.

Fom Post #29 -Quote: "I only use ZAP glues. In this case, I would go for ONE drop of the medium thickness (green) bottle, applied with their Z-end nozzle. This stuff is amazing and will stand up to years of service, incl. most oils and even cleaning solutions. Both sides must be cleaned, oil free and dry before gluing. "

This was meant to convey exactly what I stated: that it is not affected by the heated cleaning solution..s that I use in my Ultrasonic cleaner. The temperature of our dishwasher is much higher than that in my Ultrasonic cleaner. The parts have to date not fallen apart...

3. You'd be surprised at what can be (and is) glued using the proper CA glues. Caveat: aside from high heat scenarios, one has to watch out for shock or pulse loads, which can break the bond.

Again, all I have stated is what has worked for me, using the techniques that I employ. As the expression goes, YMMV.
 

R. Croswell

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Fom Post #29 -Quote: "I only use ZAP glues. In this case, I would go for ONE drop of the medium thickness (green) bottle, applied with their Z-end nozzle. This stuff is amazing and will stand up to years of service, incl. most oils and even cleaning solutions. Both sides must be cleaned, oil free and dry before gluing. "

This was meant to convey exactly what I stated: that it is not affected by the heated cleaning solution..s that I use in my Ultrasonic cleaner. The temperature of our dishwasher is much higher than that in my Ultrasonic cleaner. The parts have to date not fallen apart...
So if I understand correctly, you find Zap green to be an amazing product (I'm sure it is) that you have used for various purposes and that it is your third choice of method for the repair that's the subject of this thread, but apparently you haven't actually used it to mount a loose brass second wheel to a pinion on an arbor like this. If that is correct, then your 3rd choice recommendation must based only on your assumption that because this product has worked well for you in other applications that it would also be adequate for this repair.

Please don't take this the wrong way, I just wouldn't want anyone reading this to come away with the idea that gluing loose wheels to pinions at the power level of the 2nd. wheel in an 8-day clock is a proven and acceptable repair without actual examples of demonstrated success over time for this specific application.

RC
 

matthiasi

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Yes, I have used it on brass wheels to steel arbours.

It has been up to the task in all respects where I have used it (2nd wheels in some antiques, a few wheels in Junghans/Kienzle's (can't remember which ones at present)Various barrels, levers etc.). They have held up for quite a number of years.
I have also used the medium (Green) and thin (Pink) to stabilize brittle gears in antique's, where the gear itself has become cracked due to embrittlement (either through incorrect cleaning fluids, Ultrasonic cleaners and/or manufacturing techniques). These have been limited to the upper, lower stressed wheels. This technique was only employed where the client did not want to pay for the expense of having a new gear blank manufactured, yet still wanted to try this type of repair. I've had a 100% success rate in the applications where I have employed it, with a track record greater than 15 years in service.

I have not had any success in staking, soldering or brazing a gear to an arbour that is so brittle that it is literally disintegrating. The only correct method of repair for one of these is to manufacture a new blank and stake it.

Hope this helps.

FYI- if it were my own clock that is the subject of this thread, and if the fit of the gear blank on the arbour was quite good (or be meade this way), then I would stake it and then run a drop (or two, on opposite sides) at the base of the pinion onto the blank, so that it does not run into the pinion leaves. Come to think of it, I still have a run-out Mauthe 3-spring that I purchased a couple of years ago to use for parts in a clients clock.
 

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