How to attach new dial feet??

[Alan G]

I recently bought a dial for an 18s Waltham Model 1892. You can see pictures here--

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Not until after I purchased it did I notice that the ad plainly said it was missing two of the three dial feet. (NOT BLAMING THE SELLER--I just didn't read the complete description, which clearly stated that two of the feet were missing). The face of the dial is perfect. I can see where the missing feet used to be attached. I'm wondering if I could solder new feet in the proper locations without the heat damaging the front. Has anyone tried this? Don't know whether to use soft (tin-lead) solder and a soldering iron, or silver solder and a propane torch.

I've also heard that "glue-on" replacement feet used to be available. Does anyone still make these? Did they work?

Any suggestions greatly appreciated.

 

[gmorse]

Hi Alan G,

Definitely not silver solder on an enamel dial! I think you can still buy replacement dial feet with a flat end, like a nail head, which can be soft soldered or glued in place. The problem with any soldering is getting the copper substrate hot enough without damaging the front enamel; the feet would have been soldered on originally before it was enamelled.

Regards,

Graham

 

[Skutt50]

Hi Graham

Are you sure the original dial feet were soldered?
Wouldn't the solder melt during the enembling process. Enembel as I know it, melts at higer temperature than solder......

I have soft soldered replacement dial feet on enembled dials and had no problem with the enembel. I use a heat gun and heat the dial until the solder melts. The problem I have encountered is to get the dial feet in exactly the correct position. It does not take much before the dial willnot fit.

 

[gmorse]

Hi Skutt,

Are you sure the original dial feet were soldered?

I see what you mean, but I suspect that they were hard soldered; I agree that the enamelling process would melt soft solder. This is a typical example and it was clearly attached before enamelling.



The feet on Alan's dial may have been spot-welded, which would be impractical now it's been enamelled.

Regards,

Graham

 

[viclip]

FYI my watchmaker has successfully replaced enamel dial feet using his jeweller's laser welder. I don't know whether he placed the dial onto a wet rag or something to help dissipate the heat (or even whether that's necessary with the laser welder). As Skutt50 posted above the biggest headache was precisely postioning the feet.

 

[Appa69]

You need a low temperature solder.

Solder is usually made in the eutectic proportions, or in the nearly eutectic form of 60% tin, 40% lead. But some solder is available in the opposite ratio -- 60% lead, and 40% tin. This is the form we need (unless you can obtain your lead and tin as separate items).

The eutectic form of the bismuth-lead-tin alloy is 52.53% bismuth, 32.55% lead, and 14.92% tin, by weight. The compound is Bi8Pb5Sn4.

If you have the separate metals, you can weigh them out and melt them together, and you will have an alloy that melts at 203° Fahrenheit (95° Celcius).

If you have the 40/60 tin/lead solder, you can weigh out equal parts of the solder and the bismuth, and melt them together. This gives you a mixture that is not eutectic, so the melting point is a range from 203° F (95° C) to 219° F (103.8° C). This will still melt in near boiling water.

Bismuth can be found at sporting goods stores in the form of shot for use in shotguns. It is preferred to lead shot because it is not toxic, and doesn't pollute the water where duck hunters shoot.

 

[gmorse]

Hi viclip,

I don't know whether he placed the dial onto a wet rag or something to help dissipate the heat (or even whether that's necessary with the laser welder)

I'm not sure about laser welders, but it isn't necessary with pulse arc types such as the Orion. It could be a problem if the enamel is very close around the foot, as it is in the example in my post #4.

Regards,

Graham

 

[roughbarked]

Borax.
Amazing stuff.
I used it a lot when doing resizing of people's rings. Coat their sensitive gemstones in a borax paste and heat their ring up without damaging the stones.
Is also used to make insulation both rodent and fireproof(to a degree).

 

[Skutt50]

In the post 4 the dial foot is sourounded by enamel. When I replaced missing dial feet I used the type with a flat head. To make them fit I had to grind away the enamel around the original dial foot to make the head of the new dial foot to get a good grip of the cupper/brass dial base material.

A few times I tried making new dial feet with a piece of electric cupper wire and to solder them into the old hole, without removing any enamel. Those experiments did not go well. The new dial foot came loose very easily.

One thing to consider is when there are counter sunk areas of the dial, Specially the seconds dial area tends to come loose if too much heat is used. It appears to be soft soldered, at least in some dials, or is it possibly old repairs?

 

[roughbarked]

Look to make the engineering principles clear, this is why rivets have endured for so long.
I've told countless wristwatch owners; "Look, you could pay this much for a new dial or, you could put up with a couple of spots on your dial that I'll do my best to hide but you will still be able to see them if you angle the light right".

 

[gmorse]

Hi Skutt,

A few times I tried making new dial feet with a piece of electric cupper wire and to solder them into the old hole, without removing any enamel. Those experiments did not go well. The new dial foot came loose very easily.

One thing to consider is when there are counter sunk areas of the dial, Specially the seconds dial area tends to come loose if too much heat is used. It appears to be soft soldered, at least in some dials, or is it possibly old repairs?

The solder joint probably failed because the copper substrate didn't get hot enough for the solder to flow properly; getting it hot enough for conventional soldering isn't easy. Electric spot welding or one of the micro-welding techniques are much more likely to stay firm.

The separate parts of sunk dials were often soldered in place originally but you do see all sorts of adhesive used in repairs.

Regards,

Graham

 

[Alan G]

Thanks to everyone who replied.

Skutt, you said that you used a "heat gun" to soft solder feet to a dial. Can you elaborate a bit? When I look at heat guns on the web, I see some (like a Wagner 0 that have two temperature settings--750 and 1000 degrees F. A more expensive Wagner has 121 settings, from 150 to 1200 degrees. I also see smaller heat guns that go from about 350 to 650. I would have thought a soldering iron would be better, although heating up the dial back could be a problem.

I have 60/40 solder--when I look to buy 40/60, I see that it is available (according to the web), but the label also says "not sold in Indiana or Pennsylvania' (and I'm in Indiana). It also says it melts at 360 to 460 degrees. Don't know if that's too hot for the enamel.

l might ask a jeweler about using a laser welder, but I figure that charge will be almost as much as the price of a dial.


Alan Goebes

 

[gmorse]

Hi Alan,

If you search online for 'rework station' you'll find a range of hot air soldering machines that have precise temperature controls; these aren't paint strippers!

Regards,

Graham

 

[Skutt50]

Skutt, you said that you used a "heat gun" to soft solder feet to a dial. Can you elaborate a bit?

Sure. I have a heat gun that can be set at different temperatures from no heat to some 400degrees centigrade. I use it for many things. Drying watch parts comming out from a rinse, heat roller tables or pallet forks to shellac jewels, melt plastic enamel during dial repair or to soft solder parts. I also use it to blue screws and on occation a minute, hour or seconds hand.

What I do is to fit the dial in a holder and fix the new dial foot in its place with a second holder with a small piece of soft solder between the dial and dial foot. I then heat up the dial with the heat gun until the solder melts. I usually blow heat from the back side (dial feet side). Sometimes I have to add some solder depending on the situation.

I use solder with built in flux but sometimes I add some additional flux. (Can't really say when. It depends on the situation and how well the solder bites.....)

I have only done this on enameled dials and have so far not have any issues with the enamel. Just be careful with decorated dials of if there are counter sunk parts. You could give it a try on a junk dial before you go live.....

The difficult question to answer is which temperature I use. I can't say. I turn the temperature dial on the heat gun all the time but I try to test with low temperature and if it does not work I increase the temperature slightly until the solder melts. I would guess the setting is about 6 or 7 on a scale ranging from 0 to 10.

EDIT: I would consider my heat gun a paint stripper but of a more fancy type.

EDIT 2: The dial foot is fitted loosly so it can "fall down on the dial" when the solder melts.

 

[Brunod]

I just use a cooper wire and tin. This machine works perfectly. It's named a "dial feet soldering machine", there were some modern ones on ebay to sell.
Our ancestors used flame but it's harder to use.
The explanation with fire is written in the book from Schultz, Der Uhrmacher am Werktisch. (See under).
It must heat very fast locally to avoid spreading the heat on the whole dial. So faster is better.
The wire touches the clean backside of the dial. A little chip of tin is placed with flux. The carbon rod wich makes the arc touches the cooper wire as close as possible to the tin. Heating the wire, the tin melts in place without really heating the dial.
Then let cool, cut the wire and shape it's end.

 

[Brunod]

Screencopy with url of the book :

 

[Brunod]

A youtube video of the use of a modern one (and advertisement):

 

[Brunod]

Also :

Replacement dial feet

Is there a source for replacement dial feet? I seem to recall some available that had the foot mounted on a square pad. That pad would help cement or solder the foot to the back of the dial because it provides more surface area for contact. I looked but couldn't find anything, but then I've...

mb.nawcc.org

 

[praezis]

The Schultz method works well with 40/60 tin solder. The trick is to equally heat the whole dial, not just a spot. It also helps to grind off the back enamel on a small spot to reveal the copper and give room for the solder cone (round the dial foot).

Frank