How long does it take you to fit 20 bushings (in a hermle 0451 or 1151) using a bushing machine or milling machine? Please let me know?

[NEW65]

I feel as if it's taking me way too long to overhaul a movement. The average Hermle 0451 and 1151 which requires at least 20 bushings , is taking me the best part of 6- 10 hours to complete (that is, a max of 10 hours to overhaul and have the movement up and running on a test stand ) And as I'm in business, time is money!
I would like you all to give me an idea of how long it takes you to overhaul a movement that requires at least 20 bushings? Im specifically talking about weight driven movements. I can then make some decisions and changes if needed.
It's just not cost effective, there's so much work to do to get them fit for purpose!
Thanks chaps

 

[Willie X]

I can (usually) do 3 or 4 per hour.

If all the bushings take the same size hole, it will be about 5 per hour. Not including any take-apart and reassembly, except what is needed to fit the pivots.

That's using a Bergeon bushing machine and usually KWM bushings.

Willie

 

[wow]

It takes me too long to set up using my mill. I use a KWM bushing machine. I hardly ever put more than five or six bushings in each plate even on a three train. I don’t think I have ever put 20 bushings in a clock. It takes me from five to fifteen minutes for each bushing. I use a pivot gauge which speeds things up. That’s just the bushing itself. That doesn’t include finding and marking sloppy bushings.

 

[R. Croswell]

I feel as if it's taking me way too long to overhaul a movement. The average Hermle 0451 and 1151 which requires at least 20 bushings , is taking me the best part of 6- 10 hours to complete (that is, a max of 10 hours to overhaul and have the movement up and running on a test stand ) And as I'm in business, time is money!
I would like you all to give me an idea of how long it takes you to overhaul a movement that requires at least 20 bushings? Im specifically talking about weight driven movements. I can then make some decisions and changes if needed.
It's just not cost effective, there's so much work to do to get them fit for purpose!
Thanks chaps

All I can say is If you can overhaul a movement like this in 6 - 10 hours including properly locating, installing, and fitting 20 bushings, I sure don't want to come up against you in a race!

RC

 

[NEW65]

Thanks. RC , you made me smile. And answered my query too. I thought up to 10 hours was a long time. I bush by hand.
A friend of mine does 3 hermle 1151s per day, fitting over 18 bushings in each movement. That is why I thought I was slow

 

[roughbarked]

Maybe his is a longer day than yours?

 

[NEW65]

My day is very short due to my current circumstances. If I could start at 8am and finish at 6pm I would be able to get through so much work. I am seriously considering fitting new movements only and to just stick to floor clocks with Hermle movements only. I just don't have the time to spend hours dealing with worn movements. Some days I only manage 4 hours work time.

 

[R. Croswell]

A friend of mine does 3 hermle 1151s per day, fitting over 18 bushings in each movement. That is why I thought I was slow

I don't know about the work your friend does, but at some point, too much emphasis on production speed has to result in lack of attention to details and a lower quality finished product. I believe that for most people, 3 Hermle 1151s per day is beyond that point. I wonder if he does anything at all to the pivots?

RC

 

[J. A. Olson]

A friend of mine does 3 hermle 1151s per day, fitting over 18 bushings in each movement.

Dick Feldman would be proud of such an achievement.

 

[John P]

If a 451/1161 movement needs 20 bushings in our shop, it goes to the scrap pile because that condition would indicate too much wear overall. Not a good candidate for an overhaul and a one-year warranty.
The average rebuild would require around 6 to 8 bushings.
It takes us about 6 hours to completely rebuild one of those. and that includes wheel prep and assembly.

The movement shortage and quality of new movements has driven us to the rebuild bench.
We buy used movements at NAWCC regionals for 5 or 10 dollars.


johnp

 

[NEW65]

John, do you use the bushing machine or a mill or do you handbush your movements?

TBH I find that even the newer worn hermle movements require many bushings to make them relaible and long lasting. I overhauled an 1151 just 8 years of age and I finished up fitting 17 bushings in that one! I just couldn't let it go with so much play in the pivots. Even the chainwheels had wobbly pivots esp in the front plate which always seems to be the case. It takes a long time for me to do them. And you can take a safe bet that the plates will have to be opened again before its fit for purpose!

I was looking at the new Hermle 0451's x 50 to keep the price of each movement right down to a minimum. Life would be so much easier, I would save hours and hours of my time just by fitting a new movement. I can use the time i save doing something else!

I have loads of used floor clocks - nearly all of them have the Hermle 0451 and 1151 movements installed. The Hermle 0451-050 will fit nearly all these floor clocks. Oddly the hermle 0451-053 is a movement that I rarely need/run into and yet most suppliers now only offer Hermle 0451-053 units, the 050's now obsolete!! I do not understand this. Of course, Hermle are always happy to supply the shorter reach handshaft length if requested.

Regarding the quality of their new movements, yes, without any doubt, they are not great. However, the last lot of new Hermle floor clocks that I bought and sold , which had the 0451 with side hammers, were all fine... all played the quarters at a very good rate. Also, my last batch of new Hermle movements which all went out about 3 - 4 years ago, were also fine. They all had wobbly pivots but all worked okay. No returns.

On the odd occasion, I had a few defective ones which I was able to correct myself... eg GP pin not reaching the Racks (easy fix by pushing rack inwards slightly), one had a bent GP arbor which was a straightforward repair, one had excess end play in chime barrel which was also easy to fix. One had the verge set too close to the escape wheel and one had insufficient chime lift which caused the quarter -to -hour chime to fail. They were all small faults and easily rectified. Of course I was disappointed that I had to spend time 'fixing' a new movement but it was much easier to fix rather than return back to Germany, especially as I always have to pay the return shipping fees!

Going back to rebuilding used movements that require numerous bushings and the fact that it takes me up to 10 hours or sometimes longer to complete a movement, I could not charge per hour for my time and labour! My partner earns £40 per hour in her job! Need I say more! As much as I enjoy what I do, I find it is a job were its not really possible to have a fixed 'decent' hourly rate cos nobody would be able to afford to use me LOL Or perhaps its just me, I speak for myself!

You mentioned movement shortage? I am not sure whether you are implying new or used? I have so many used hermle 1151's and 0451's that I have problems entering my workshop ! Not joking!

Thanks John for your message.

 

[John P]

New...we bush by hand. No fancy equipment on earth will get to all the things that need bushing work. Hand bushing will and any clock repairman must, learn to do it right if he expects to be successful. There are rules one must follow.
I do 3 or 4 movements per week and have rebuilt hundreds in the past 20 years.
That much work has required thousands of bushings. All done by hand and eye. You do something every day; you get good at it.

We have a Sherline mill and all the tooling but use it mostly for spring barrels, caps and winding arbor building.
I tried a bushing a machine but could not keep consistent accuracy.

my 2 cents
johnp

 

[NEW65]

Thanks John. I agree about the bushing by hand method , I find it much quicker. I may not find the exact centres every time but I'm near enough as my work always turns out to be good and reliable. I had thought about a milling machine but I think I would lose too much time setting it up for a movement that requires numerous bushings.

 

[roughbarked]

True indeed that many bushings have to be done by hand. However the bushing tool is also quick and easy to get the holes reamed out.

 

[R. Croswell]

I find it much quicker. I may not find the exact centres every time but I'm near enough as my work always turns out to be good and reliable.

The question is, how good is good enough? Check out this, Pinion and Wheel Engagement Every time a bushing is installed not exactly centered on center there is more rotating friction and the clock takes more power to keep it running. The effect is cumulative; what might be "good enough" if one or two bushings are installed, but when a dozen bushings are installed, or it is a French clock that's a lor more fussy than an old Hermle that was sloppy from the factory, good enough may not be good enough.

RC

 

[shutterbug]

I can usually turn a movement around in about four hours. However, it's more important to do the job once. If you hurry and have to take it apart again, you're going to spend even more time.

 

[John P]

New, here is the tool used to find and scribe perfect center

 

[shutterbug]

Some here use those. Personally I don't find them helpful. You are still using "eye ball" centering, which can cause big problems with smaller pivots.

 

[Nitrous]

New, here is the tool used to find and scribe perfect center
View attachment 761808 View attachment 761809

what is this tool called?

 

[Willie X]

I've written about these several times. You may want to search the word 'scribe' or 'concentric circle'. These are a big help on badly worn over holes. I always make the circle about 1/2mm larger than the bushing hole will be. This way the mark is always left for future reference. Willie X

 

[R. Croswell]

I agree with Shutterbug, I personally would not use these (scribes) and would not find them helpful, but I do my bushings with a Bergeon bushing machine. I can see how they may be helpful to someone who bushes by hand, especially for larger pivot holes. I have doubts how well they may work on tiny pivot holes like those in many French clocks.

RC

 

[NEW65]

New...we bush by hand. No fancy equipment on earth will get to all the things that need bushing work. Hand bushing will and any clock repairman must, learn to do it right if he expects to be successful. There are rules one must follow.
I do 3 or 4 movements per week and have rebuilt hundreds in the past 20 years.
That much work has required thousands of bushings. All done by hand and eye. You do something every day; you get good at it.

We have a Sherline mill and all the tooling but use it mostly for spring barrels, caps and winding arbor building.
I tried a bushing a machine but could not keep consistent accuracy.

my 2 cents
johnp

John, I meant to ask you... you mentioned that you usually fit a max of less than 10 bushings per movement that you overhaul. Obviously all the movements that you do are used and probably over 10 years of age.
Do you just do the worst of the sloppy pivot holes?
TBH I find that all the used Hermle movements need numerous bushings fitting. I average over 18 bushings per movement now and get a great result everytime. If however I could fit less and get the same good result, I definitely would. May be I am fitting too many? Makes me wonder at time! cheers John

 

[John P]

I think it's a good idea to examine a movement before taking it apart, including the verge.
This will determine whether or not to rebuild. I don't like rebuilding any movement with too much overall wear. Especially on the main wheels.
Most clock movements, especially Hermle, wear more on the front plate where all the work is done and the output shafts are located ( chime disks, gathering pallets etc.)

I might add that Hermle plate swapping will work fine if you know what you are doing.

After cleaning, place each wheel, one at a time, in the plates and check them that way.
If the pivot flops around in the bushing, it needs service and any wheel that tilts too far should be bushed regardless.

my 2 cents
johp

 

[NEW65]

Thanks John. As you say it's hard to see what needs attention unless the pivots and holes are cleaned beforehand. In fact it takes me a while to prepare the movement to see which holes need bushing. Then further time is needed to mark the holes up etc its quite a time consuming job. I've just fitter 22 bushings in an 1151. Code S. I wasn't going to bother with that movement but I didn't have another 1151 with the long handshaft! I've got a crazy amount of short reach handshafts! That movement works like new now. However not very cost effective when you're in the trade!
And yes you're right about the wear in the front plates! You can take a safe bet that the later hermles 0451 etc have excessive play in the front centre arbors including some degree of play in all the chain wheel pivots in the front plate. I always do the chime stop and chime count wheels even if there's only minimal play there. I think they should always be included.
Thanks again , John

 

[TEACLOCKS]

I put in 32 bushings in a Hermle 1161-853 114cm
10 or 15 years ago
The work is on this forum somewhere.
Found it 2008
All of them are not here.
And this is why a buy new movements NOW.