How does ebay verify a watch? this one seems wrong.

[musicguy]

How does ebay verify a watch? this one seems wrong.

The listing has an Authenticity Guarantee from eBay, the watch is authentic but
the listing says 14k and the watch is gold filled?

Elgin 14K TRi-COLOR GOLD Pocket Watch | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Elgin 14K TRi-COLOR GOLD Pocket Watch at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

and no movement photos(which is sellers prerogative but strange).



Rob

 

[Steven Thornberry]

the listing says 14k and the watch is gold filled?

Well, on the case its does say "Guaranteed/14K/25 years." I guess you gotta know what that indicates. Caveat emptor!

 

[musicguy]

yes, my question is

does ebay guarantee the listing is correct?

I guess it does not matter because it's not.

Rob

 

[roughbarked]

It does surprise me when I seem to know more about how American law works than actual Americans.

It is actually all there in the fine print, before you sign up as a believer.

 

[darrahg]

Don't rely on anyone, and that includes eBay, but yourself to obtain facts about an item. If they (facts) are missing then don't bid. You can always contact the seller and hope for more info. DA

 

[Bernhard J.]

I can only speak of Germany.

Here all wrist watches over 1,800 € run through this "verification" process, you have no choice, neither seller nor buyer. When the auction has ended the seller gets shipping information saying "Bernhard J. c/o Clinton MM ...", i.e. my adress is not communicated to the seller. "Clinton MM" is a company not registered in Germany, but located in the vicinity of a Clinton Wholesale Limited near Berlin. Clinton Wholesale Limited is a logistic center for mainly clothings.

Ebay says that an (existing) company "Stoll" looks at the watches with a hoard of specialized watchmakers and either verifies a watch or returns it to the seller as "fake".

This raises questions:
- from where the heck did they get the hoard of specialists, in particular considering the throughput?
- watches typically spend less than 24 h at "Clinton MM", i.e. this hoard of experts must reside in the clothing logistic center
- what is, if one of the experts does harm to a watch
- does eBay step into the seller warranty (business sellers in the EC must provide warranty by law, but only if the watch is not messed around with by others)

I once bought a wristwatch from a professional via eBay, a Vacheron & Constantin, wherein the movement was made in 1930, which was cased or recased in the US a couple of years later. Both, the seller and I, were aware of this and had agreed about a relaticely low price in view of this. When I received the watch it had a nice looking eBay "certificate", stating that the watch is genuine and completely original. If I would resell it, and if I had fraudulent intentions, I would use this certificate to achieve a higher price.

By the way, the seller had thought that "Bernhard J. c/o Clinton MM" were my business adress and was completely baffeled that this is not so. We had after sale contact, because eBay tracking had marked the watch as "delivered", but nothing had arrived here. Somewhat upset I had begun to investigate with the tracking number received by the seller, and finally found out that it had been "delivered" to "Clinton MM" ...

I do not want to think about one of these "experts" opening a brand new Rolex Daytona for verification and the resulting troubles for all parties, if something goes wrong thereby, be it only a scratch on the screwback ....

P.S.: When having bought another watch over 1,800 € somewhat later I had contacted the professional seller via email (i.e. NOT eBay messenger) and provided my real adress and we both agreed to sh... on this "verification". Thanks to EC imprint legal obligations professional seller´s contact details must be provided in eBay listings (eBay like to hide it more or less, for obvious reasons). By this occassion this seller complained that he had gotten returned by eBay a fully authentic watch and just professionally serviced by his watchmaker as "not working" and in parts. And was forced to return the payment. Of course, I do not know whether this is a fairy tale, but I tend to believe that it is true because of subsequent private contacts.

 

[musicguy]

Rob

 

[MrRoundel]

I think one could easily argue that Ebay's guarantee should cover a buyer who buys thinking, quite reasonably to the non watch-person, that it is 14K. Whether Ebay does so, and how quickly they do so, could be at the whims of Ebay alone, at least for a while This is always a bad position to put oneself in, especially if an unscrupulous seller tells Ebay that it is indeed an authentic Elgin. And that they sold a watch, not a watch case, etc. Still, I think the buyer would ultimately prevail because of the multiple claims of 14k purity. But what a hassle.

The listing states that "Metal Purity" is 14K in the top description. It is not. It also says so in the blurb. I would say yes, that Ebay's guarantee would be triggered if the buyer buys, but figures out later that it's not what they thought it was. Then again, Ebay surely has a short time limit on when such a claim must be filed, so there would be no fun in dealing with them. And the window closes quickly in most cases.

JMHO.

 

[Bernhard J.]

You can always contact the seller and hope for more info.

Hope dies last

 

[roughbarked]

I think one could easily argue that Ebay's guarantee should cover a buyer who buys thinking, quite reasonably to the non watch-person, that it is 14K. Whether Ebay does so, and how quickly they do so, could be at the whims of Ebay alone, at least for a while This is always a bad position to put oneself in, especially if an unscrupulous seller tells Ebay that it is indeed an authentic Elgin. And that they sold a watch, not a watch case, etc. Still, I think the buyer would ultimately prevail because of the multiple claims of 14k purity. But what a hassle.

The listing states that "Metal Purity" is 14K in the top description. It is not. It also says so in the blurb. I would say yes, that Ebay's guarantee would be triggered if the buyer buys, but figures out later that it's not what they thought it was. Then again, Ebay surely has a short time limit on when such a claim must be filed, so there would be no fun in dealing with them. And the window closes quickly in most cases.

JMHO.

Now you all know why I don't get involved in these games.

 

[musicguy]

It does surprise me when I seem to know more about how American law works than actual Americans.

It is actually all there in the fine print, before you sign up as a believer.

I actually understand the law quite well, I was just thinking it was
funny that ebay has an authenticity guarantee on a very misleading
auction(to non watch or non gold experts).



Rob

 

[Bernhard J.]

I just had a look at the link (the Elgin watch). I do not see anything like an authenticity garantee. In contrast, as displayed here, it says " Seller assumes all responsibility for this listing."

 

[musicguy]

I just had a look at the link (the Elgin watch). I do not see anything like an authenticity garantee. In contrast, as displayed here, it says " Seller assumes all responsibility for this listing."

I'd post a screen shot but that is probably against our rules


Rob

 

[Bernhard J.]

Here a screen shot for a listing here (only for German sellers and buyers):

The marked part is obligatory (!) and translates to: "With authentication, The authenticity of this item is confirmed by an authenticator before delivery. Free of charge for a limited time."

****Screen Shot removed by Moderator.***

P.S.: Why should such an clearly informational/educational screen shot be against Rules?

P.P.S.: all what I see here in the Elgin listing is the usual "eBay Money Back Guarantee". That does not cover the claimed case material, but just that you get what you see in the photos. And not just a brick, or nothing.

 

[roughbarked]

I actually understand the law quite well, I was just thinking it was
funny that ebay has an authenticity guarantee on a very misleading
auction(to non watch or non gold experts).



Rob

In Australia we refer to that as arse covering or covering your arse.
Which in no way implies correctness.

 

[musicguy]

P.S.: Why should such an clearly informational/educational screen shot be against Rules?

We do allow links to live auctions and we can discuss them
but we stay away from full page screen shots of other websites
with content that inculdes photos and descriptions of someones
item.

Thank you for understanding



Rob

 

[Bernhard J.]

Here a translation of some of the related faq for modern and vintage wrist watches, effective for Germany:


Is there a confirmation of authenticity?

Yes. All items that have been authenticated will be provided with a card listing the details of the item, such as brand, model, movement, case material, bracelet type, and reference number.

Can I also choose not to have an authenticity check on my item?

No, the eBay Authenticity Check is a service designed to protect the proper processing of sales completed on eBay.

 

[grtnev]

Due to my rural location in northwest Nevada (USA), eBay has been my main source of watches for over 20 yrs - and I have never had an issue with any eBay purchase. Not because of eBay or their policies or guarantees per se, but because I live by the statement “Caveat Emptor”; i.e. “the principle that the buyer alone is responsible for checking the quality and suitability of goods before a purchase is made”.

I have my own set of “Caveat Emptor” buying guidelines that I religiously adhere to, and if an eBay listing violates any of those guidelines I don’t bid - I simply move on.

The reality is that common sense dictates that there is no way eBay or any other similar online auction site dealing with the volume of total listings that eBay has could ever verify that every submitted listing is 100% correct. On source states that: “There are at least 1.7 billion eBay listings active on the site.”

(And before someone mentions Jones & Horan, they handle a very small volume of listings compared to eBay (435 in their current on-line auction) as compared to eBay).

I personally am very glad that eBay exists - otherwise I’d have over 100 fewer watches than I do.

I am the only one responsible for my eBay activity, bidding, and purchases. If a listing violates one of my “Caveat Emptor” bidding guidelines, I simply don’t bid - I walk.

This philosophy has kept me out of trouble since my first eBay purchase in 2002.

Richard

 

[Bernhard J.]

We do allow links to live auctions and we can discuss them
but we stay away from full page screen shots of other websites
with content that inculdes photos and descriptions of someones
item.

Thank you for understanding



Rob

Would this be OK? If not, please remove also. If so, could you provide a similar screen shot of the Elgin listing as displayed in the US?

 

[musicguy]

Would this be OK? If not, please remove also.

View attachment 757873

That is OK, and that is how the listing looks on the American web site to us.
It has the same Guarantee..


Rob

 

[Bernhard J.]

And this is the related part displayed in the Elgin case here. No confirmation of authenticity, only the usual money back guarantee. Perhaps, like in Germany, only effective in case of sellers AND buyers both residing in the US?

 

[musicguy]

Due to my rural location in northwest Nevada (USA), eBay has been my main source of watches for over 20 yrs - and I have never had an issue with any eBay purchase.

I buy the majority of my watches on eBay.
I also have my own strict eBay rules, and interestingly I really do like
buying on eBay. It's not like holding one
in your hand at a show, but finding them in the "wild" is always fun.





Rob

 

[MrRoundel]

Here's a snip of the "Authenticity Guarantee" box checked in the linked auction.

 

[musicguy]

I should add that I have never seen this guarantee before on an American PW
on eBay or never noticed it before.



Rob

 

[FreetzGrün]

I have found a way to circumvent every single one of my watches that have qualified for eBays "authenticity guarantee" from being sent to God knows where.. And I will continue to do so.

 

[brg404]

The listing in question has been ended by the seller and the watch was re-listed without the "14K" in the description (the title still has "14K" in it.)

The authenticity guarantee implemented by ebay is:

"Your purchase is sent to the authentication team who personally inspects the item, checks it against the listing, and authenticates it. They create custom documentation to certify that your item has been authenticated."

In other words, it is an after-the-fact check for watches selling for $2000 or more, not any kind of verification of the listing itself. Guessing this process is in place to prevent sales of fake modern wristwatches.

 

[musicguy]

I am going to move this thread to the Horological Misc | NAWCC Forums



Rob

 

[Bila]

Appears to be a bit of a play on words with that watch (with omissions by the Seller), Seller says 14K, it is marked as such, does not mention the "Gold Filled", but nor does he say Solid Gold, so it would probably qualify as being described correctly by eBay's loose interpretations So, just as Steve said in Post 2 of this thread, buyer beware

 

[Bila]

The listing in question has been ended by the seller and the watch was re-listed without the "14K" in the description (the title still has "14K" in it.)

I just checked that listing Bruce over this side of the pond, it still shows the 14K in the title of the Auction ad, also in Items specifics and the item description Also has a much cheaper price attached, it is Auction format still, but now also with a Bin.

 

[musicguy]

but he did lower his price by more than half.



Rob

 

[roughbarked]

I was aways taught to treat any mark that used K rather than ct, as fake.

 

[Bila]

I was aways taught to treat any mark that used K rather than ct, as fake.

On American watches in Solid Gold & Gold Filled as well as on a lot of the Swiss Solid Gold cases the "K" was used

 

[roughbarked]

Yeah but I'm not American and have nil desire to be. The law in Australia defies the K. For a start, you have just proved how inaccurate the K is.
The word is carat and not Karat.
I don't recall any Karob seeds. They were always known a Carob.

 

[Bila]

Different strokes for different folks.

 

[roughbarked]

No. Americans are simply pig headed about the English language.

 

[FreetzGrün]

Yikes.

 

[Bila]

No. Americans are simply pig headed about the English language.

Poor Form

 

[Bernhard J.]

Well, as an example, in this Omega watch with gold case it does say "18K" (aside the Swiss mark for solid gold).



At least here in Europe in some countries it is spelled "Karat" and not "Carat" (including Switzerland and Germany). Both is used in specifications, "18K" and "18ct", wherein it appears that "18K" is more common.



An european watch case with "18K" clearly is solid gold, i.e. through and through gold. If it were gold filled only, this would violate law and result in immediate prosecution.

For the above Omega watch I would suggest that "18K gold" would be be a proper description, both, with respect to facts and lingually.

One might rather discuss whether the stamp in the Elgin case is deceptive at least. It says "Garanteed", "18K" and "25 years", and no hint as to being gold filled only. Does the "Garanteed" refer to the "18K", or to the "25 years?" I personally regard the stamp in the case as deceptive, at least for less knowledgeable persons not being able to "decode" this as "gold filled" according to this strange American "practice", but used to European gold marks only.

So, the seller could claim that he simply reproduced 1:1 what Elgin had stamped ...

The Elgin marks make me think of imo fraudulent offers over here for coins advertized as "24K gold". If one reads the advert in detail, in particular the very small printed specification, it turns out that the coins are actually plated with a few µm of 24K gold (making the advert heading illegal). But who reads all this in these days, when texts being longer than the number of Twitter characters are read by nobody, not to speak of understanding what is read ...

 

[FreetzGrün]

To the original topic, eBays main "authenticator" is Stoll & Co in Ohio.
Looking at their Google reviews of their real customers confirms my worries about eBays so called "protection" are valid.

Even eBays own hype videos do not give me confidence.

Mr. Stoll:

"I've probably seen or touched more watches than any living human being"

Uh ok. I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous.

eBay Authenticity Guarantee for Watches || eBay.com

So the historic watch I purchased, with the caseback thats bonded to the case from crash into seawater, will not go to Stoll & Co to have them do... what exactly? Confirm a watch that I already know is genuine, is real? Would they try to open my caseback? Of course! And they'd potentially damage it further. I want my watch to remain untouched. I firmly believe that once paid for I should be able to dictate where my watch goes.

Sometimes the person buying the watch is the best person to verify and remember that the seller gets paid according to their payout schedule, not when it's delivered, or where the watch goes.

 

[FreetzGrün]

Keeps getting stranger the deeper I go. Mr Stoll is in fact the current North American president of Carl F. Bucherer.

And all the watches then qualify for eBay Authentication Guarantee, go through him. Wow.

In-Depth: Carl F. Bucherer’s New "Mastery Lab" Brings Pièce Unique To The Masses – If You Can Afford One

The minds behind the new individualization program believe that if you're ponying up for a watch, it should be distinctly yours.

www.hodinkee.com

 

[Bernhard J.]

Stoll is claimed to perform the authenication in Germany as well. But watches are sent by eBay to Clinton MM near Berlin and turned over to the buyer typically within 24 h. This excludes intermediate shipping to a Stoll residence, authenitication there, and shipping back to Clinton MM (the buyer receives the watch from Clinton MM).

And it is rather unlikely that a high number of Stoll employees have been relocated to Berlin. I would suggest that the number of Stoll employees (with watchmaking skills of whatever nature) at the premises of Clinton MM is ... exactly zero.

 

[FreetzGrün]

Stoll is claimed to perform the authenication in Germany as well. But watches are sent by eBay to Clinton MM near Berlin and turned over to the buyer typically within 24 h. This excludes intermediate shipping to a Stoll residence, authenitication there, and shipping back to Clinton MM (the buyer receives the watch from Clinton MM).

And it is rather unlikely that a high number of Stoll employees have been relocated to Berlin. I would suggest that the number of Stoll employees (with watchmaking skills of whatever nature) at the premises of Clinton MM is ... exactly zero.

Yes, with a few hours or even minutes of digging, anyone can confirm that "eBays authenticity guarantee" is an obvious racket. But after reading now dozens of real buyers accounts of actual counterfeit watches being "authenticated" by Stoll, my fear of "Would they try to open my caseback? Of course!" just may be unwarranted, as I am convinced now that in most cases they do not actually open it. How else can you explain so many obvious fakes being "authenticated" by Stoll/eBay.
The situation is even more dire than I first realized, there is no reason to have any confidence in this eBay policy.