How do you evaluate a non running clock movement?

[Steve Neul]

I recently purchased an old Seth Thomas kitchen clock which someone had removed the main springs. When I get replacement springs I will take the movement apart, clean it and install the springs. My question is how do I determine if it needs bushings? Looking at it I can take to toothpick and lift all of the gears maybe as much as 1/32". I'm not able to tell if the old bushings are oval until I take it apart. Then if I do need to replace the bushings what tools do I need for that?

 

[eemoore]

I recently purchased an old Seth Thomas kitchen clock which someone had removed the main springs. When I get replacement springs I will take the movement apart, clean it and install the springs. My question is how do I determine if it needs bushings? Looking at it I can take to toothpick and lift all of the gears maybe as much as 1/32". I'm not able to tell if the old bushings are oval until I take it apart. Then if I do need to replace the bushings what tools do I need for that?

Steve,you may want to start by reading about hand bushing in the Encyclopedia section. Under Forum,select Encyclopedia, the select Clock repair . You will see the Hand Bushing tutorial and other helpful items as well. There are many different opinions on how to do bushings, but this is a good place to start . Also under the Search heading you can look up the subject and find many different posts concerning bushings. Good luck. Ed

 

[wow]

You can find out which bushings are in need of replacement by rocking the wheels in each train and watching the pivots. Begin with the largest wheel and rock it in the direction it winds. Watch the pivots on the second wheel and see if they are sloppy and mark the direction of the wear with a permanent marker. Next rock the second wheel in the direction it turns watching the pivots of the third arbor pivots and mark them. Continue up the train until you reach the last wheel or fly. When you bush, center each new bushing according tho the marks you made.

 

[R. Croswell]

If you have "an old Seth Thomas kitchen clock", you can be pretty sure it will need bushings. Do the test WOW suggested and you will find the worst ones, but you really need to evaluate the pivot and the pivot's hole as a pair, and you can't do that until you have it apart. If the pivot is rough and has to be filed and polished/burnished it will be looser in the hole. Do the pivots first, they will all need to be polished/burnished, then repeat the test after everything is clean. Don't be surprised if you need upwards of a dozen bushings.

RC

 

[wow]

I just realized I made a mistake in my directions in the post above. Since it is a Seth Thomas kitchen clock movement, the large wheel in each train turns in the opposite direction of the wind. In barrel spring movements the barrels turn in the direction of the wind.

 

[Steve Neul]

I just realized I made a mistake in my directions in the post above. Since it is a Seth Thomas kitchen clock movement, the large wheel in each train turns in the opposite direction of the wind. In barrel spring movements the barrels turn in the direction of the wind.

I have manually turned the barrel springs and it seems to work without slipping. I haven't had a chance to try the method you posted.

 

[Rob M]

Not to "assume" too much here but your question may indicate a knowledge gap on other things beside bushings. Do you know how to safely install the new springs when you get them? Very important... Regardless, reviewing the written and video materials here (on bushing and lots of other stuff) will make a world of difference in what you are trying to do. Which ST movement do you have? Pictures help more than you can imagine. The NAWCC members who frequent these forum pages can see things you might miss and help by sharing tips and techniques as well as their observations. Leave lots of pictures and ask!

 

[wow]

I have manually turned the barrel springs and it seems to work without slipping. I haven't had a chance to try the method you posted.

Your movement should not have barrel springs. Please post photos.

 

[Rob M]

I assume your movement is a ST 89. Which version you have?

 

[R. Croswell]

I assume your movement is a ST 89. Which version you have?

You may be assuming too much here. We really need to see pictures of the clock we are discussing. "Kitchen clock" doesn't always mean the same thing to everyone and sometimes "parlor" clocks are confused with kitchen clocks. The OP's clock might have a ST# 89 movement, or perhaps a ST "shoulder" movement, or a ST "Lyre" movement, or we could be looking at a marriage clock that has a movement by an entirely different maker.

Please lets see some pictures of this clock.

 

[Steve Neul]

Not to "assume" too much here but your question may indicate a knowledge gap on other things beside bushings. Do you know how to safely install the new springs when you get them? Very important... Regardless, reviewing the written and video materials here (on bushing and lots of other stuff) will make a world of difference in what you are trying to do. Which ST movement do you have? Pictures help more than you can imagine. The NAWCC members who frequent these forum pages can see things you might miss and help by sharing tips and techniques as well as their observations. Leave lots of pictures and ask!

I thought I could do it. The springs come wound and bound. Then last night I had a main spring break on another clock so I thought I would take the back off the movement and remove the broken spring and see if I could determine the length. When I did the spring kicked half the gears out on the table. I was planning to photograph the guts of the movement so I could take it further apart and clean it while I was waiting on a replacement spring. I tinkered with it all day and think I have the gears in place but there is still the rod with the warning and left lever.

The pictures and other questions I had on the clock are on this thread. Movement for Seth Thomas wall clock

The movement I have is marked 5 7/8 with 1/2 below it.

 

[Steve Neul]

I assume your movement is a ST 89. Which version you have?

Everybody says it's close to a ST 89. The number it has on it is 5 7/8 with 1/2 below it.

 

[Steve Neul]

You may be assuming too much here. We really need to see pictures of the clock we are discussing. "Kitchen clock" doesn't always mean the same thing to everyone and sometimes "parlor" clocks are confused with kitchen clocks. The OP's clock might have a ST# 89 movement, or perhaps a ST "shoulder" movement, or a ST "Lyre" movement, or we could be looking at a marriage clock that has a movement by an entirely different maker.

Please lets see some pictures of this clock.

Sorry, I had been discussing the clock on another thread and started a new thread about the bushings. I began to worry I would get springs and install them and movement would run erratic and discover then the bushings were bad and have to take the movement back apart and replace bushings. I just now watched a video on how to replace bushings. I think if it comes to that I better have it done.

 

[Willie X]

That's a #44 S-T. It's not like a #89 S-T, just made by the same company. Split thread warning ... Willie X

 

[R. Croswell]

Sorry, I had been discussing the clock on another thread and started a new thread about the bushings.

It is confusing when the same clock is discussed more than one thread. One of the administrators can combine the threads if you like.

I just now watched a video on how to replace bushings. I think if it comes to that I better have it done.

A red flag warning here!!!!! I don't know what video you watched, but many of the clock repair videos on YouTube are posted by amateurs and hacks that often demonstrate wrong methods.

You have already learned the hard way that even rundown springs can still have a lot of stored energy. When your new springs arrive, they will be tied with wire. You will need safely unwind them and clean them to remove the rust preventative coating. You will need to rewind them and retie them (not with the same wire) before installing them. How do you propose to do that? Steven Conover published a series of books on clock repair, Clock Repair Basics is a good starter book. Instructional materials and videos published by Dave LaBounty About Time - David LaBounty can also be trusted.

Yes, if you are not sure, better to have it done, done right, and done safely. That's a nice clock and not a difficult movement to work with if you are serious about learning how to do it right.

 

[Rob M]

Steve, NAWCC has a video section of the library that had some good training videos in the past. I watched them and they helped. At least one was by Steven Conover. I am not sure what is up there now but it might be worth checking it and requesting the ones you want from the library. I recall some were also available for viewing on line. You can look through the titles the way they are displayed on the WWW site but in my opinion getting a list and choosing from that might be the best way, if that is an option.

Bottom Line -- Does anyone know how we can get a list of the videos that are currently on the WWW site? Again, the library has a way you can see the titles along with the opening screen of the video but reviewing only the part of the title that is visible makes it a difficult process. I am sure there is a better way but I dont know what that way is. Any suggestions?

 

[Steve Neul]

It is confusing when the same clock is discussed more than one thread. One of the administrators can combine the threads if you like.

A red flag warning here!!!!! I don't know what video you watched, but many of the clock repair videos on YouTube are posted by amateurs and hacks that often demonstrate wrong methods.

You have already learned the hard way that even rundown springs can still have a lot of stored energy. When your new springs arrive, they will be tied with wire. You will need safely unwind them and clean them to remove the rust preventative coating. You will need to rewind them and retie them (not with the same wire) before installing them. How do you propose to do that? Steven Conover published a series of books on clock repair, Clock Repair Basics is a good starter book. Instructional materials and videos published by Dave LaBounty About Time - David LaBounty can also be trusted.

Yes, if you are not sure, better to have it done, done right, and done safely. That's a nice clock and not a difficult movement to work with if you are serious about learning how to do it right.

The video looked like they knew what they were doing. They went through a selection of bushing and selected a bushing that fit the clock gear well and used like a small hand cranked drill press to remove the old bushing and installed the new bushing. Too much for me to get into with one clock movement. It was interesting to see anyway.

OK, I thought the main spring was ready to install. I knew the spring needed to be oiled but didn't know it had a rust preventative on it. The one I have just seems to have a light oil on it. It's a Roshan spring.

 

[Steve Neul]

I was just wanting to find information on how to evaluate a clock bushing. I didn't think it was necessary to link it with a particular brand clock or the other thread.

 

[R. Croswell]

The video looked like they knew what they were doing. They went through a selection of bushing and selected a bushing that fit the clock gear well and used like a small hand cranked drill press to remove the old bushing and installed the new bushing. Too much for me to get into with one clock movement. It was interesting to see anyway.

Sounds like he was using a "bushing machine", which is OK, but the real question is what method did he use to make sure the new bushing was exactly centered over the original hole. Anyone can ream a hole and insert a bushing, not everyone has mastered a technique properly center and align abushing.

OK, I thought the main spring was ready to install. I knew the spring needed to be oiled but didn't know it had a rust preventative on it. The one I have just seems to have a light oil on it. It's a Roshan spring.

Getting a new spring is something of a crap shoot. Unless you have Timewise build a custom spring you really can't be sure just what's on it, where it was made, or even how much power it will be able to produce. Time was when springs came with a very obvious protective coating. Most of the ones I have received lately were bright and appear to have a light coating of God only knows what, but to me they seem a bit sticky. Best practice is to unwind the spring and clean it and oil it, then you know exactly what's on it and that it was clean when you oiled it.

RC

 

[Steve Neul]

Sounds like he was using a "bushing machine", which is OK, but the real question is what method did he use to make sure the new bushing was exactly centered over the original hole. Anyone can ream a hole and insert a bushing, not everyone has mastered a technique properly center and align abushing.

Getting a new spring is something of a crap shoot. Unless you have Timewise build a custom spring you really can't be sure just what's on it, where it was made, or even how much power it will be able to produce. Time was when springs came with a very obvious protective coating. Most of the ones I have received lately were bright and appear to have a light coating of God only knows what, but to me they seem a bit sticky. Best practice is to unwind the spring and clean it and oil it, then you know exactly what's on it and that it was clean when you oiled it.

RC

This is a link for the video I was referring to. I missed the part where he used a cone shape tool to align the bushing hole with the bushing machine.

The play in the bushing he shows at the first of the video is probably double what the Seth Thomas clock I have does.

 

[shutterbug]

When you take the clock apart to bush it, don't be stingy with the bushings. If there is any straight line movement of the pivots when you rock the main wheel back and forth, it needs to be bushed. You have it apart anyway, so it shouldn't take too much longer to do everything that is questionable.

 

[R. Croswell]

This is a link for the video I was referring to. I missed the part where he used a cone shape tool to align the bushing hole with the bushing machine.

The play in the bushing he shows at the first of the video is probably double what the Seth Thomas clock I have does.

Steve, the video shows the operation pretty much as described in the directions for the Bergeon bushing machine that he is using, but his technique leaves several opportunities for the bushing to end up not well centered. I hope this will be taken as constructive criticism and not nit picking.

First, he says the movement has a loose "bushing" when in fact it does not have bushings. It has a loose pivot hole. The Bergeon machine has a long quill that is supported by a small bearing sleeve at the end of the arm. Such machines usually have a bit of side-to-side movement at the end of the reamer (it is not a broach) and cannot hold the reamer on true center in an egg-shaped hole. He shows the proper use of the centering cone to center the quill over the original pivot hole location within the limitations of this machine, from that point on I have to disagree with his method.

The next step after location the center of the original part of the hole is to select the smallest reamer from the set that will go in the hole and not just fall through. During the original inspection it should have been determined in which direction the hole was worn. It will almost always be egg-shaped. The first cuts with the small reamer will be just a 1/2 turn and lift reaming just the large end of the egg. This is continued until the hole is round. (This is sometimes called nibbling) Then the reamer is rotated 360 degrees until the full size of that first reamer is reached. I personally like to step up through each size reamer until I reach the reamer that is correct for the selected bushing. However, once the hole is nibbled and you are sure it is round, you can jump to the final reamer. If the hole has not been rounded up and reamed with that smaller reamer, attempting to force the final reamer into the egg-shaped hole and crank and crank until it goes through almost guarantees that the reamer will walk off center by some amount.

Once the hole is reamed to size, the opening should be deburred using the Bergeon chamfer tool. (The video omitted that step). Attempting to press a bushing into a hole that is not deburred can start the bushing in crooked and damage the precision dimension of the hole potentially leading to a lose bushing fit.

Unfortunately, the video did not show the front side of the plate after the bushing was in place. He said place the oil sink in the reamed hole so it will be on the front (which is correct), but this movement does not have oil sinks. He did not say what the thickness of the plate is or the length of the bushing, so we have no way of knowing his way of dealing with this. If the bushing length is the same as the plate thickness, a shorter section of the pivot will be supported. In my opinion, the preferred option is to use a longer bushing and trim it flush with the front plate eliminating the oil sink as the clock was originally. Some would select a longer bushing and leave it proud raising the oil sink above the plate which is OK but doesn't look the best. Some would just use the short bushing arguing that the reduced pivot contact area won't affect how the clock runs even if the bushing life is a little shortened.

I complement the demonstrator on stressing that the pivots should be smoothed and polished before addressing the bushings. I don't normally use those clamp-on assembly posts. Unless you place a piece of scrap metal between the plate and the screw they will leave a little divot in the brass plate - not very professional to mar someone else's clock movement.

As I was saying, the videos available range from awful, to bad, to fair, to good, to better, to excellent. I won't rate this one, but I think the gentleman might be able to improve his technique a bit. When one is searching for videos to learn how to do something that is unknown to them, it's difficult to know if the video is appropriate or not.

RC

 

[Steve Neul]

Steve, the video shows the operation pretty much as described in the directions for the Bergeon bushing machine that he is using, but his technique leaves several opportunities for the bushing to end up not well centered. I hope this will be taken as constructive criticism and not nit picking.

First, he says the movement has a loose "bushing" when in fact it does not have bushings. It has a loose pivot hole. The Bergeon machine has a long quill that is supported by a small bearing sleeve at the end of the arm. Such machines usually have a bit of side-to-side movement at the end of the reamer (it is not a broach) and cannot hold the reamer on true center in an egg-shaped hole. He shows the proper use of the centering cone to center the quill over the original pivot hole location within the limitations of this machine, from that point on I have to disagree with his method.

The next step after location the center of the original part of the hole is to select the smallest reamer from the set that will go in the hole and not just fall through. During the original inspection it should have been determined in which direction the hole was worn. It will almost always be egg-shaped. The first cuts with the small reamer will be just a 1/2 turn and lift reaming just the large end of the egg. This is continued until the hole is round. (This is sometimes called nibbling) Then the reamer is rotated 360 degrees until the full size of that first reamer is reached. I personally like to step up through each size reamer until I reach the reamer that is correct for the selected bushing. However, once the hole is nibbled and you are sure it is round, you can jump to the final reamer. If the hole has not been rounded up and reamed with that smaller reamer, attempting to force the final reamer into the egg-shaped hole and crank and crank until it goes through almost guarantees that the reamer will walk off center by some amount.

Once the hole is reamed to size, the opening should be deburred using the Bergeon chamfer tool. (The video omitted that step). Attempting to press a bushing into a hole that is not deburred can start the bushing in crooked and damage the precision dimension of the hole potentially leading to a lose bushing fit.

Unfortunately, the video did not show the front side of the plate after the bushing was in place. He said place the oil sink in the reamed hole so it will be on the front (which is correct), but this movement does not have oil sinks. He did not say what the thickness of the plate is or the length of the bushing, so we have no way of knowing his way of dealing with this. If the bushing length is the same as the plate thickness, a shorter section of the pivot will be supported. In my opinion, the preferred option is to use a longer bushing and trim it flush with the front plate eliminating the oil sink as the clock was originally. Some would select a longer bushing and leave it proud raising the oil sink above the plate which is OK but doesn't look the best. Some would just use the short bushing arguing that the reduced pivot contact area won't affect how the clock runs even if the bushing life is a little shortened.

I complement the demonstrator on stressing that the pivots should be smoothed and polished before addressing the bushings. I don't normally use those clamp-on assembly posts. Unless you place a piece of scrap metal between the plate and the screw they will leave a little divot in the brass plate - not very professional to mar someone else's clock movement.

As I was saying, the videos available range from awful, to bad, to fair, to good, to better, to excellent. I won't rate this one, but I think the gentleman might be able to improve his technique a bit. When one is searching for videos to learn how to do something that is unknown to them, it's difficult to know if the video is appropriate or not.

RC

I did wonder about how he determined the correct position of the bushing if the old bushing hole was egg shaped. It also appeared the bushing he used was more than double the thickness of the plate and was wondering how to address that. In any case I found out the basics of replacing a bushing enough to know it's over my head at this point and will have it done if I need it. Never knew there was so much to repairing a movement.

 

[R. Croswell]

I did wonder about how he determined the correct position of the bushing if the old bushing hole was egg shaped. It also appeared the bushing he used was more than double the thickness of the plate and was wondering how to address that. In any case I found out the basics of replacing a bushing enough to know it's over my head at this point and will have it done if I need it. Never knew there was so much to repairing a movement.

Just a point of clarification, the cone shaped centering piece, when pressed into an egg-shaped hole before the plate is clamped down, will position itself in the big end of the egg, which is the unworn original part of the hole. The unclamped plat will shift as required and the quill of the machine will be centered over the original hole location and the clamps tightened. One then would then raise the centering cone and slowly lower it while watching the light around it to make sure the cone makes contact all around and is not being forced to one side. Remember there is typically a bit of play in the quill in a machine like this. If you view the video carefully you will see the demonstrator doing this, but he didn't mention what he was doing.

To be sure there are other methods that are sometimes used to install bushings, and other ways to locate the center. The importance of centering the bushing is often overlooked. Used properly, that Bergeon machine can do a pretty good job. A alternate procedure using a small milling machine is a bit more involved but potentially more accurate. Most "hand bushing" methods using files and broaches rely more on "eyeball" locating centers and are potentially less accurate.

RC

 

[Steve Neul]

Just a point of clarification, the cone shaped centering piece, when pressed into an egg-shaped hole before the plate is clamped down, will position itself in the big end of the egg, which is the unworn original part of the hole. The unclamped plat will shift as required and the quill of the machine will be centered over the original hole location and the clamps tightened. One then would then raise the centering cone and slowly lower it while watching the light around it to make sure the cone makes contact all around and is not being forced to one side. Remember there is typically a bit of play in the quill in a machine like this. If you view the video carefully you will see the demonstrator doing this, but he didn't mention what he was doing.

To be sure there are other methods that are sometimes used to install bushings, and other ways to locate the center. The importance of centering the bushing is often overlooked. Used properly, that Bergeon machine can do a pretty good job. A alternate procedure using a small milling machine is a bit more involved but potentially more accurate. Most "hand bushing" methods using files and broaches rely more on "eyeball" locating centers and are potentially less accurate.

RC

I appreciate all the info. It's been very interesting. Without the intent to start repairing clocks the equipment is too expensive for me. If though someday I started making clocks to sell I can picture purchasing old movements to use in the new cases. Then it would justify getting the equipment.