how are the hands secured on a centre seconds longcase?

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by novicetimekeeper, Mar 19, 2017.

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  1. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User
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    I have a centre seconds longcase without the second hand. The hour hand fits on a square as usual the minute hand fits over a hollow tube and is pinned.

    I assume the idea is that the second hand would have a pipe fitted to it and would push onto the end of the escapewheel arbour as it would have done with a conventional second hand but how would the minute hand be secured then?

    There are also two dogs sticking out, not sure what they do, originally I thought that was another pin going all the way through but they are separate pieces leaving the middle clear.


    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  2. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    Not sure about the minute hand, but do the dogs work the calendar?

     
  3. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User
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    no, far too far in for the date ring which is a 31 tooth internal tooth. The post for that wheel is seen under the snail but the wheel is missing. It would engage with the teeth under the snail and have one of those cantilever flags to clear the snail when rotating.

    The date wheel itself is present and the rollers, I've just finished resilvering and cleaning the dial. I'll put it back together as is and get it running, it will have to wait in the queue to get finished properly and have the second hand back. Not in my skillset but just wondered how it worked.
     
  4. BLKBEARD

    BLKBEARD Registered User
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  5. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User
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    Don't think so, he has a pic of a centre sweep date but I can't expand the pic.

    Will go take some more shots for you
     
  6. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User
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    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
     

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  7. Ralph

    Ralph Registered User
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    Nick,

    I've seen a variety of methods of securing the hands. C-shaped clips, square rings(?) pins, ... If I see your pictures right, yours uses pins for both the hour and the minute.

    The second hand sometimes has a thread in the tube/arbor. The mass of the second hand is hard to control with the constant starting/stopping. The thread's intent is to ensure keeping the hand secured instead of it working itself loose.

    The other choice, would be a well fitted tapered tube to tapered arbor, using its friction to secure it, as morse tapers or other tapers are used.

    Ralph
     
  8. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User
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    This currently has a square for the hour and a pin to retain the minute, but the latter is a modification as there is no method to attach the second hand.

    That was why I asked, because whatever was used originally is no longer present so I don't know how it would have looked, nor how the second hand was attached. All I know is that without the pin there is a clear tube down to the end of the escape wheel arbour which is why I assumed it had a pipe like a normal second hand. ( I will see if there is a thread)

    I have seen them in use, they do wobble alarmingly especially on a recoil escapement as with this one. I never expected to own one so didn't take much notice of the attachment method.

    I will put it all back together as is and it can go off to somebody else's house where it will stay, my collection is now too big for one house!
     
  9. RJSoftware

    RJSoftware Registered User

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    Is the dial original you think? I'm thinking the two dogs where to push a lever action to advance the moon portion that yours does not have.

    RJ
     
  10. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User
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    no, I don't think it is, but then if not there is no way of knowing if it were an arched dial originally.

    I've never seen this as a way of advancing a subsidiary, and I don't think it would work very well. It would need very precise alignment, and it would mean giving the subsidiary a push every 6 hours.
     
  11. Ralph

    Ralph Registered User
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    What retains the hour hand... I thought I saw pin holes at the corner of the square boss.?? The same with the minute. ??

    Some clocks have a bushing that screws in the minute tube and the seconds arbor is supported coming through it... but I don't even see your seconds arbor.

    Ralph
     
  12. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User
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    The hour hand is held on by the minute hand being fixed above it.
     
  13. RJSoftware

    RJSoftware Registered User

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    I've seen similar for a moon dial on very old Grandfather clock I restored. The dial had a lever with a paw like finger at the top so that when the lever was swung out (you could do it by finger) it advanced the moon dial one click of a ratchet gear.

    I was going to say an AM PM flag but more like 4 clicks per day for moon advancement.

    My National Time Recorder (old punch in/out work time-clock) is suppose to have an AM/PM and day of the week. Someone stripped it out but I plan to make one. (Thanks to Tom Tanner for supplying pics of his).

    On my grandfather it does 1 time every twelve hours. I suppose 2 times per 12 hours might be possible.

    RJ
     
  14. Ralph

    Ralph Registered User
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    That's strange. Is it my imagination on seeing a tiny pin holes in the corners of the square??

    [​IMG]

    Ralph
     

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  15. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User
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    definitely imagination. Just had a close look under a bright light just a standard square to take the hour. The pin for the minute is a mod to my mind, can't see it being anything else it prevents any sort of second hand working. Clearly it is a centre seconds movement, or else the escape wheel wouldn't be where it is so the fixing for the minute is a modification.
     
  16. RJSoftware

    RJSoftware Registered User

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    So, I'm curious as to what the steps would be to restore this clock back to original.

    I think I would keep the dial and do more research but restoring the center second hand would be worth while. It looks like a square for the hour, a smaller square for the minute, then a nut and center second hand probably friction fits in a tube or vise versa.

    If there is issue with weight on some minute hands for quartz movement I balance them by adding weight underneath the opposite end of pointer. On large quartz clocks with minute hands exceedingly large I super glue a dime on the underside so to balance the hand at the arbor. This trick prevents the replacement quartz movement (I guess they make them weaker now) from having to strain to lift the hand when going upward past 6 o'clock. Your clock being of more significant value could be modified nicer by a layer of solder if the weight is issue. Otherwise I would hope the friction fit or possible threading would hold.

    It does seem as though you have threading to hold on the minute hand with a nut.

    RJ
     
  17. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User
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    It does look like the remnants of a thread though the whole part would need to be remade I think. I paid very little for it and only bought it for the name which now appears to be just that as I'm pretty sure he did not make the movement.

    The movement is quality, with some very nice detailing and originally 5 pillar, whether I ever get to restore it to centre second I don't know, it will depend on how much work is required. As it is a marriage there is a limit to how much can be justified.
     
  18. RJSoftware

    RJSoftware Registered User

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    #18 RJSoftware, Mar 21, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017
    Here is the thing.

    What you have there is a clock that probably most of us lust for. Some of us may never get so lucky.

    Look at the age of the brass plates. I think the pitting indicates that it's hammered brass and not more modern stock of some rolled sheet or something. But thing is you know it when you see it. That's the real old -real thing.

    I would check out in more detail what was going on with the ew and it's second hand arbor expectations. I'd take a bunch of pictures of the movement and start researching best I could on the maker of the movement.

    If you can get a name of maker for the movement then I think your in business. I hope for you the case is same maker. Some of these guys here really know their stuff and can identify movements by certain attributes known of a maker.

    I think it is a good chance that only the dial was replaced. Or maybe I am wishful thinking. But since you say the dial name is not same (a lot is uncertain and even marriage is uncertain -because makers installed movements across different models.) you suspect it to be a marriage. First guess is yes but really I don't know. I only think that because of the two dogs.

    Point of this being is the only thing you can be certain as of yet is that the movement was designed to have a center second hand.

    What I would do after taking the pics and exploring the ew to see exactly what was expected is to re-install everything as was. Then time to do the mega research.

    You can fish slowly that way. I know there is a tendency to just "get use to it". But you really have a nice clock movement. Some information comes and who knows you might land an appropriate maker dial or even a suitable reproduction.

    A reproduction dial is really not so bad as long as it gives you all the functions the clock was suppose to have. You can even keep fishing and with enough determination...

    Honestly, an English tall case is certainly worth fixing and a clock to be proud of.

    When you can post a pic of the case or whole thing assembled.

    RJ
     
  19. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User
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    #19 novicetimekeeper, Mar 22, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2017
    The case is much later, from a painted dial clock, as I said I only bought it for the name. The movement has cast plates, that's a given for the clocks I collect. It is, as you say, a quality movement, the 5 pillars gives testament to that but there are lots of little flourishes you can see in the pictures already of carving and turning that you only get on better quality pieces.

    As it isn't original it will have to move to the back of the queue for a bit. I have somebody who will house it for me if it is a runner so my first job is to get it going. I've never had a centre seconds before hence my enquiry, but there is plenty here to show it is a marriage, probably to capitalise on the local name.

    At some point in the future I might get the centre seconds restored, I was trying to get a feel for what is involved.

    (there is another thread showing pictures of the case I took at the auction, thread is called Thos Phippard poole)

    http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?140935-Thomas-Phippard-Poole-Mid-18thC-Centre-seconds-8-day&highlight=phippard
     
  20. RJSoftware

    RJSoftware Registered User

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    How about the case, anything indicate it might be made by Phippard poole or did he just do movements? Find any good historical information indicating what he did, where and how etc. and indicators of his style/methods?

    I'd get as much historical information before I declared a marriage. At one time I thought one of my lathes was a makeshift marriage An older Lorch watchmaker lathe. A lot of criticism of it. But then low and behold an advertisement with one identical vindicating it. Experts do err and tend to disagree.

    Even so I think it would be nice to find that the dial and case where Phippard poole.

    Good luck.
    RJ
     
  21. Ralph

    Ralph Registered User
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    Here are a couple of examples of one way they retained the minute hand on English style bell strike movements. These are American, late 8th and early 19th century....shown with the second hand removed. A square holed washer of a proper size, when rotated, catches grooves at the corners of the minute hand square.

    The third picture is an hour hand retained with two tiny pins through holes at the corners of the hour tube square.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Ralph
     

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  22. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User
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    The dial plate is latter part of the first half of the 18th century, the movement date is hard to say, but probably much the same, the case is without doubt late 18th century at the earliest, but also the side cheeks have been modified to align the movement with the mask in the hood.

    I haven't yet seen a Phippard case (he would not have made the cases but would have specified them for his clients, all clocks would be made to order. I know of another, later, Phippard for sale but that is not in the correct case either.

    When you see enough of these you get to spot the marriages, at least the more obvious ones.

    As this isn't my first Phippard I have tried to find his premises in Poole before but nothing in the Poole archives seemed to help.

    He was prolific I think and well known which is why somebody might want to marry a dial with his name to a movement and a case.

    As you can see from the other thread the dial itself looks a bit dubious, that chapter ring doesn't appear to have started life on that plate, and it is quite possible the only bit of the whole ensemble which involved Mr Phippard was having the roundel engraved with his name. The roundel itself could well be married to the dialplate.
     
  23. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User
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    Is the painted dial centre seconds Ralph? The brass dial seems to have a date and second subsidiary.
     
  24. Ralph

    Ralph Registered User
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    Both painted dials are center sweep. The brass dial example was only trying to show another method of securing the hour hand.

    Note that one of the painted dials examples is 4 hands on center.... includes a calendar hand.

    Ralph
     
  25. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User
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    yes it wasn't till I got this one I realised how clever four hand clocks were!
     
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