Help hour strike off by 1 at 1,2 & 3 oclock only

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by Clockinit, Nov 13, 2019.

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  1. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

    Nov 4, 2019
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    I inherited a GF clock from My Pop-In-Law..It was an EMPEROR Kit Clock he built in 1969..It has a Erhart Jauch movement. I have 2 questions...It seems to keep good time. the tic-toc look and sound correct. But note the crutch adjustment, how off center it is...Is this OK? 2nd, and the main reason for this post is..The hour strikes are all correct except at 1 oclock it strike 2, 2 oclock strikes 3 and 3 ocklock strikes 4...all other hour strike are correct...any thoughts?..I'm new at this and don't want to dive in and satrt tearing things apart. Dad showed me how to take dials off, remove movements, where to oil etc... but he never showed me how to disassemble a movement..

    movement1.jpg movement2.jpg
     
  2. JimmyOz

    JimmyOz Registered User

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    Since you know how to take off the dial, take it off and post a photo of the front of the clock movement, it could just be a case of moving the snail one leaf on the cog.

    As for the crutch, it is fine as it is, the pallets are a bit off compared to the crutch, however till it is in place you will be wasting your time messing with it.
     
  3. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    Yep, we need to see the strike stuff on the front plate.

    BTW, Welcome to the Message Board! :)
     
  4. Dick Feldman

    Dick Feldman Registered User

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    Welcome to the message board.
    The problem with the the beat adjuster not being centered.
    From your photo of the rear of the movement.
    There are two silver colored posts, one on either side of the pendulum leader. These are stops and are threaded into the movement plate even though it does not look like it. These posts prevent the pendulum from swinging too far right or left and knocking the movement out of beat. The adjustment wheel with the peg that fits into the keyhole slot in the pendulum leader is for fine adjustment of the beat on the clock.
    Do this to set the beat on the clock:
    1. Set the clock case level on a stable surface. The case must be stable as if it is not, the case will rock from sympathetic vibration and cause problems.
    2. Center the adjustment wheel with the peg that passes through the keyhole slot in the pendulum leader. It should be centered with the peg at the bottom.
    3. Remove the two stop posts from the rear plate. Put them in your pocket.
    4. Set the beat by holding the verge stable and rotating the pendulum leader on the verge arbor. (At least get it close)
    5. Replace the two threaded stop posts in the rear of the movement. Those are in your pocket.
    6. Fine adjust the beat using the wheel with the peg on the crutch. If you have done a good job, the adjuster wheel should be nearly centered. If not, start over at #1 above.
    Good luck with that,
    Dick
     
  5. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    OK will do and get photos for ya...Thanks...I'll do that tomorrow....
     
  6. JimmyOz

    JimmyOz Registered User

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    As Dick said to set the beat, however I would go and check the floor where you are going to set it up 1st as if this is not level you will have to do this all again.
     
  7. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    Guys is it possible on this Kit Clock that the trim board does not come off and everything comes out the back? It really feels permanent...It has no movement whatsoever.I'm a little reluctant to give it a 'firm' whack. I'm inclined to take the chime block out, removing the movement and then the dial...some photos are attached...We never took his clock apart...so I'm not sure... DadsclockA.jpg DadsclockB.jpg DadsclockC.jpg DadsclockD.jpg
     
  8. JimmyOz

    JimmyOz Registered User

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    Normally the movement comes out the back, however I can't see a photo of the outside of the back, look for a few screws as the top section must come out or how else did they get the movement in?
     
  9. Dick Feldman

    Dick Feldman Registered User

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    #9 Dick Feldman, Nov 14, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
    I think you are correct.
    There should be a wooden back on the case that is held in by what I would call window screen latches.
    The chime block comes out by taking 4 counter sunk screws out of the board that the chime block is mounted to.
    No need to separate the cast iron chime block from the wood. That piece of wood may be a tight fit in the case but it will come out.
    Chime rods are very brittle so take extra care.
    Once that is out of the way, you should be able to take the movement out the back with the dial attached.
    The movement is mounted to the dial (face) with clips.
    Those "fork" over a groove in the dial posts.
    A picture of the clips is in the next post.
    Once the dial is removed from the movement, you should have access to the rack and snail on the front of the movement, which is probably where your strike problem is.
    D
     
  10. Dick Feldman

    Dick Feldman Registered User

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    Here is a picture of the dial mounting clips.
    D

    Clips 11-13-19.JPG
     
  11. Dick Feldman

    Dick Feldman Registered User

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    Now the bad news-----That clock movement is 50+/- years old and is likely worn to the point that it can no longer give good service.
    If you get it to perform, good luck but it is probably in the last stages of its life.
    Clock movements are machines and will wear like any machine.
    A normal expected life span on one of those movements is 20-30 years but they can be rebuilt, extending the life.
    I rebuilt one of those movements within the last two weeks and installed 30+ bushings to compensate for the wear.
    Dick
     
  12. JimmyOz

    JimmyOz Registered User

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    Dick, Clockinit said it seems to keep good time, however I take where you are coming from, therefore, Clockinit, set it ticking and listen to it, if it has a strong tick toc and then goes a little quiet and strong again there is a chance it is on its last legs, however if it keeps a constant tick toc there maybe some good life left in it.
     
  13. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    it seems to keep good time, and it has a strong tic & toc sound...pendulum moves both ways past the tic & toc, seeming to be even both ways...chimes and strikes don't seem slow either..
    I will take everything out via the rear....will update in a bit with photos of the front of the movement.....Thanks guys...:cuckoo:
     
  14. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    I don't particularly like the crutch position. I think you'd do better with a shorter suspension spring. Right now, the crutch is operating in the hole. It should operate in the slot - lower on the pendulum holder. That will give you more impulse to the pendulum and improve how the clock runs. The beat adjuster is designed to move, so it's not a huge issue … but I like them to be at center position also.
    Many of those kit clocks are only accessible from the back. They are my least favorite to work on.
     
  15. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    Thanks Shutterbug...do you think a shorter suspension spring would reduce the pendulum wobble I'm seeing?
     
  16. Dick Feldman

    Dick Feldman Registered User

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    Failure in these clocks, as with most, will usually be with the chime train. That takes the most energy to run and usually will fail first. The symptoms will be sequences that will not finish or are skipped, stopping with hammers in the raised position, etc. Often, the time train will continue to operate long after the chime train has been overcome by wear.
    Many or most times, those clocks have more worth than their monetary value.
    I hope the movement can offer a long period of being dependable.
    Proper rebuild of that movement is not a small item and will be expensive. If faced with the situation, I would urge you to have the job done properly because a “patch” job will only result in disappointment and early failure.
    The design of Emperor Clocks many times makes them a bit difficult to work on. I do not feel that makes them bad. It is just a matter of where one puts priorities. Once the clock is retired to the land fill, it will mean nothing to anyone.

    Best of luck,

    Dick
     
  17. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    Guys...all replies are heeded as sound advice...I'm moving on in the 'Lets assume all is good' mode..Photos are attached...I'm not sure what you're seeing....?
    check out the seat board (front to rear) as opposed to left to right. The R/S (looking from the front) is stressed, sagging & cracked.... ALSO...from previous photos, there are some cardboard 'shims'....something i would not have expected from Dad....but he was a 30 year Navy Man...."improvise & a torndown1.jpg Torndown3.jpg torndown4.jpg dapt" torndown2.jpg torndown5.jpg
     
  18. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    I'm already in the '''Got to fix this seat board issue mode" ....want to correct the chime strike issue first...unless you think it's a balance issue?
     
  19. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    When the rack falls, the tail should hit the center of the step it's falling on. Adjust it at the 11:00 step. Get it centered there, and the others will be right. You'll have to raise the snail off the hour wheel and turn it. Set it back down and lock it in.
     
  20. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    Huh? Can you send me pictures:???: Don't mean to sound thick.....
     
  21. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    should I have the chime block back in during this process?
     
  22. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    The rack is the thing with teeth on the front of the movement. You can see it in your 1st pic pretty clearly. It falls as the strike is setting up for it's run. The snail kind of looks like one, and it's what the rack tail hits when it falls. That's the part that you lift and turn to adjust the strike. It doesn't matter if the chime block is in or not.
     
  23. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    Shutterbug....where exactly is the adjustment made?...the snail has 2 screws holding it in place....
     
  24. JimmyOz

    JimmyOz Registered User

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    Do not touch those screws, that is not what Shutterburg said.
    Just below the snail is another smaller wheel with a small clip holding it on, take off that clip, and the washer, now the snail will come off, lift it clear of the teeth of the small wheel and move it till the rack leaver pin is in the centre of 11.00 and put it back into the small wheel, put the washer and clip back on and if you got it in the centre it should strike the right number of hours.
     
  25. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    Are you saying, remove the E- clip nd washer on the wheel below the hour wheel?....and then what? I just want to get this right.....
     
  26. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    I think I got it...BUT it's hard to say...as I was puting the E clip back on, the R/S seat board gave way and the movement almost collapsed into the case...I guess i have to square this away first...WTH!!
    Oh well. this is how things go....Stay Tuned BAT FANS!!!...Thanks for your patience peoples....;)
     
  27. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    For clarity purposes please...which is the rsck lever pin...?
     
  28. JimmyOz

    JimmyOz Registered User

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    The pin I am talking about is resting on the snail in photo 1 (your latest photos), directly below it is the small wheel with the e-clip. Take the clip and washer off, pull the snail toward you and when the pin is about centre of the 11.00 push the snail back on. As I said if you are resting in the middle of that flat part it should be right for all the strikes , 11 at 11, 12 at 12, 1 at 1, and so on.
     
  29. chimeclockfan

    chimeclockfan Registered User
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    This would have been among the first Emperor clock kits outshopped in 1969 as this was the same year the company was founded by George Fowler of Fairhope, Alabama. Your clock is a Model 300 which was their only 'big' clock during the early years. It was most commonly offered in solid black Walnut.

    Movements were made under contract by Erhard Jauch Uhrenfabrik of Germany. The Model 300 originally used the large Jauch 110 CM movement which was derived from a 1930's proprietary design. It isn't a bad design but one point to watch out for are the chime hammer leaf springs losing tension which results in the chimes going at breakneck speed. This may be amended by simply adjusting the leaf springs to suit - steady tempo, not erratic or sluggish. The chimes do sound nice when in top form.

    Beyond that comes the typical wear & tear with any moderate-sized weight driven chime movement. If the movement is really worn out then it should be serviced by a professional. Costs and value are subjective but it always boils down to if you really want your clock to run again. Cardboard shimming would not have been factory-advised or original to the design. The older Emperor case outlines tend to be solid albeit somewhat difficult for maintenance access. Those that were built up individually vary considerately in regards to how they hold up over the years. Emperor prided making case kits that were accessible for those unfamiliar with professional woodworking.

    In the meantime, here's a nice advertisement showing a Model 300.
    PMDec1971.jpg
     
  30. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    Jimmy..Thanks for the clarity...I appreciate it...I have to fabricate a new seat board, as the R/S collapsed completely..I will put your advise to use when I get this thing sured up... What a lousy design...
    Chimeclockfan...Thank You for the History..That's Cool!!
     
  31. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    ok...I moved the pin to the center of the 11 step on the snail.....the pin on the rack hook still falls on top of the tooth just behind where its supposed to land only for 1,2 & 3 oclock...so 1 strikes 2, 2 strikes 3 and 3 strikes 4...and then at 4 oclock it falls into the correct tooth and strikes 4 again.....
     
  32. JimmyOz

    JimmyOz Registered User

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    Okay, post a photo or better a vid of the setup when the clock is supposed to strike 1 o'clock.
     
  33. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    took me a while to figure out, but here's a video
     
  34. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    here's another video chiming 4 at 3...I missed the 2 oclock hour it took me so long to figure it out...YEESH!
     
  35. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    That didn't work out....WTH!!
     
  36. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    here we go again...striking 4 at 3
     
  37. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    OK, I think you have an issue with your rack tail. It is allowing the rack to fall just a fraction too far, so sometimes it over strikes. It should be friction fit, and can be moved. You'll have to move it just a tiny bit closer to the snail, meaning you'll lessen the angle. Use a vise or something that gives you precise control. You don't want to go too far. Move a fraction, test, repeat ;)
     
  38. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    Thanks Shutterbug, but which one is the rack tail?...above the rack? or the lever attached to the bhottom that hits the snail?
     
  39. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    ....and could you be more specific as to what action I am going to do...., please?
     
  40. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    Shutterbug....Thank You, Thank You!!! I figured it out...that was a lot of trial and error, because in order for the rack to fall in line for 1,2 & 3...it fell a little bit forward of all the others. so I split the difference ever so slightly and all the strikes, seem to be working correctly... I guess final assy will tell for sure...
    Want to say thanks to everyone for their input AND MOST OF ALL....PATIENCE with this novice!!!
     
  41. JimmyOz

    JimmyOz Registered User

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    You have learned fair bit to start you on the road if you want to do more clocks, well done and when you hear it chiming you will have some satifaction that you did that:D
     
  42. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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    I Know!! I can't wait!!! Thanks again to everyone!!
     
  43. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Glad you got it. That's not a real common problem, but you will probably run into it again some time in the future. Good job! :thumb:
     
  44. Clockinit

    Clockinit Registered User

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