Hot "Fudging" a Balance Staff with Henry Fried.

[MrRoundel]

Here's an interesting one that I had never heard about before. Being that I have a few balances that have holes that are too big for the standard fitting staffs, I sought help various places.

I have a few copies of the AWI, today's AWCI, Horological Times from the late seventies and early eighties. In a section for presenting questions on watch-work, someone wrote about the problem of oversized balance holes. Mr. Fried mentioned that just annealing the balance hub would allow for a larger, or at least softer and enabled to get larger, rivet when the staff is riveted.

He said something about using the leads from a "dry cell" and touching either end of the staff would accomplish this targeted annealing. I'm not entirely sure what he's talking about, or how this would work, but it sounds interesting. Has anyone heard of such a thing, or perhaps tried it? Either way, what do you think of its possibilities of working? Thanks, all.

 

[darrahg]

Mr. Fried mentioned that just annealing the balance hub would allow for a larger, or at least softer and enabled to get larger, rivet when the staff is riveted.

I believe what he is stating that by heating the balance "staff" hub area it will soften and permit it to spread easier when riveting it using a staking set. I have done it a couple of times but with a micro torch but don't know about a battery setup. It is sooooo much easier getting a staff for a proper fit and having less chance of damaging pivot strength.

 

[MrRoundel]

Thanks, darrahg . I figured that he meant that, but was unsure of using the battery to do the job. And yes, finding a staff with a larger shoulder would be optimal, but that doesn't seem very probable. Buying a bunch to measure up would be cost-prohibitive, to say the least.

BTW, Fried started off his response by mentioning the "old days" when staffs could be purchased with slightly oversized balance shoulders. I think it would take one heck of a stroke of luck to find such staff today. Unless, of course, as my old friend neighmond always said, I found one dangling at the end of a piece of wire. I will say that I am open to suggestions for sources of pre-made staffs so dimensioned. Thanks again. Cheers.

 

[gmorse]

Hi MrR,

This sounds like one of Henry's bright ideas which should never have been committed to paper; he seems to have had a good many of these, which could be described more accurately as 'bodges'. Doing this to a staff isn't easily controllable and will result in softened pivots, an undesirable outcome.

If you can't find a replacement staff that fits, perhaps because an earlier bodge has altered the wheel hub, the way to go is to make a staff from scratch or turn down one that's oversized, although as you say, finding such an article isn't going to be easy. If the hole in the balance has been damaged and made oversized, it may also have become eccentric, and correcting that presents another problem.

Regards,

Graham

 

[Skutt50]

I'm not entirely sure what he's talking about, or how this would work, but it sounds interesting. Has anyone heard of such a thing, or perhaps tried it?

I think the idea is that by using a battery, the current rushing through the staff will heat it to red hot, which is similar to anneling a piece of steel. The battery must be e.g. a 12 V motorcycle battery or similar. A small AA cell will not be enough. Any one who by accident shortened a car battery with a wrench will know what I am talking about.......

The idea to only heat part of the staff this way is not likely to work. As Graham pointed out the complete staff is likely to soften and you do not want to harden it again once the balance wheel is mounted.......

 

[DeweyC]

Hi MrR,

This sounds like one of Henry's bright ideas which should never have been committed to paper; he seems to have had a good many of these, which could be described more accurately as 'bodges'. Doing this to a staff isn't easily controllable and will result in softened pivots, an undesirable outcome.

If you can't find a replacement staff that fits, perhaps because an earlier bodge has altered the wheel hub, the way to go is to make a staff from scratch or turn down one that's oversized, although as you say, finding such an article isn't going to be easy. If the hole in the balance has been damaged and made oversized, it may also have become eccentric, and correcting that presents another problem.

Regards,

Graham

Graham,

My only edit is that you left out the word "another" of Henry's bright ideas......

 

[Al J]

Hi MrR,

This sounds like one of Henry's bright ideas which should never have been committed to paper; he seems to have had a good many of these, which could be described more accurately as 'bodges'. Doing this to a staff isn't easily controllable and will result in softened pivots, an undesirable outcome.

If you can't find a replacement staff that fits, perhaps because an earlier bodge has altered the wheel hub, the way to go is to make a staff from scratch or turn down one that's oversized, although as you say, finding such an article isn't going to be easy. If the hole in the balance has been damaged and made oversized, it may also have become eccentric, and correcting that presents another problem.

Regards,

Graham

I wonder if these things are a product of the times. I am assuming these were stated back when everyone owned a mechanical watch, there were watchmakers all over the place, and prices were cut throat cheap. So getting the job done quickly was priority #1, because anything else would mean you go out of business.

None of that makes these things good ideas of course...and unfortunately people read these books now and think that this is the "proper" way to do things.

Cheers, Al

 

[MrRoundel]

Thanks, gents. One of the reasons I posted this is because I seem to remember someone remarking about Mr. Fried's "bodgey" ideas. I couldn't for the life of me figure out how that heating could be controlled by most humans.

As far as the softened pivots go, I can't help but wonder just how much such a treatment would shorten the lives of the pivots. I do understand that a professional watchmaker would have a hard time justifying/excusing this. But for one who just wants a watch to run during an occasional wind, and qualify as a running watch in a collection I might be happy to put such a staff in a watch providing it would last say, 25% as long as a non-treated staff.

While I suppose there is a problem where if the watch is dropped the soft pivot actually bends over, making if very difficult to remove from the hole jewel, if a watch is not being carried, is it such a bad thing?

Of course if one could find a non-treated "right-sized" staff without herculean efforts, that would be the way to go. Or if there were more sit-down classes where one could learn how to make a staff under the tutelage of a professional, that would be optimal. But alas, not much of that going on anywhere that I can find. I'm a slow, stubborn learner, and I'm running out of time.

Al J , for fairness' sake, I must add that Mr. Fried's article did say that it wasn't the best way to go about things. He pretty much advised against it unless absolutely necessary being that a staff wasn't available. I didn't want to post Fried's entire response because of possible issues with copyrights and such.

Cheers, all.

 

[Dr. Jon]

I tried it and it worked although it was a long time ago.

The trick is to fix wires to the battery and touch the ends them to just the area that is to be annealed. It is on either side of the seat so you can selectively heat just that region.

 

[MrRoundel]

I tried it and it worked although it was a long time ago.

The trick is to fix wires to the battery and touch the ends them to just the area that is to be annealed. It is on either side of the seat so you can selectively heat just that region.

That does make more sense. Thanks, Dr. Jon.

 

[darrahg]

It might even be better to fit a staff with a tight fitting collar and then turn it down to a proper size. It is a pain in the buxx but works out better than using heat. I had to do this one time for a larger swiss(?) watch. What a pain though.

 

[DeweyC]

I wonder if these things are a product of the times. I am assuming these were stated back when everyone owned a mechanical watch, there were watchmakers all over the place, and prices were cut throat cheap. So getting the job done quickly was priority #1, because anything else would mean you go out of business.

None of that makes these things good ideas of course...and unfortunately people read these books now and think that this is the "proper" way to do things.

Cheers, Al

Al,

I think you make a very good point. You gotta know the history of your trade!

But I simply cannot let Henry off the hook that easily. I had several interactions with him and he was not interested in the "good of the trade". He only wanted to make money by writing rather than working.

Now compare this with two contemporaries: Archie Perkins and Marvin Whitney. Same ages, same AWI associations, all three authors of columns in HT.

I hope less experienced watchmakers do take your advice and learn which sources to trust.

To readers, buy every one of Archie's books; maybe find Gribi's writings from 1900 on Google books, and for those st starting out : "Chicago School of Watchmaking". Hopefully, Al and Graham (and others) can add to this list.

 

[Al J]

Al,

I think you make a very good point. You gotta know the history of your trade!

But I simply cannot let Henry off the hook that easily. I had several interactions with him and he was not interested in the "good of the trade". He only wanted to make money by writing rather than working.

Now compare this with two contemporaries: Archie Perkins and Marvin Whitney. Same ages, same AWI associations, all three authors of columns in HT.

I hope less experienced watchmakers do take your advice and learn which sources to trust.

To readers, buy every one of Archie's books; maybe find Gribi's writings from 1900 on Google books, and for those st starting out : "Chicago School of Watchmaking". Hopefully, Al and Graham (and others) can add to this list.

Dewey,

That's a good point regarding contemporaries - I'm certainly familiar with Archie's writings, and they are of good quality certainly.

It is interesting that Fried gets the bulk of praise and recommendations I see around forums, mainly by non-watchmakers. Similar in the way lots of non-watchmakers think anything made by Bergeon must be good...

Cheers, Al

 

[everydaycats]

Hi MrR,

This sounds like one of Henry's bright ideas which should never have been committed to paper; he seems to have had a good many of these, which could be described more accurately as 'bodges'. Doing this to a staff isn't easily controllable and will result in softened pivots, an undesirable outcome.

If you can't find a replacement staff that fits, perhaps because an earlier bodge has altered the wheel hub, the way to go is to make a staff from scratch or turn down one that's oversized, although as you say, finding such an article isn't going to be easy. If the hole in the balance has been damaged and made oversized, it may also have become eccentric, and correcting that presents another problem.

Regards,

Graham

How could one attach wire leads to the ends of a Staff anyway? I guess tiny alligator clamps will work, but overall this is—IMHO—awful advice. Find a staff or make one seems to be the best answer.

 

[gmorse]

Hi everydaycats,

Most staffs are so tiny that only a brief touch with the wires would be enough to make it red-hot, and I think the pivots would be affected even if the wires were close to the hub. More than a few seconds from a car battery would probably melt it in a flash, (literally)!

Regards,

Graham

 

[MrRoundel]

It is interesting that Fried gets the bulk of praise and recommendations I see around forums, mainly by non-watchmakers. Similar in the way lots of non-watchmakers think anything made by Bergeon must be good...

Al J , I think the reason for this is that in Fried's book, "The Watch Repairer's Manual" was one of the easiest to read and understand for non engineer types. At least this non engineer type found it so. I think that any bad habits I've learned, I've learned on my own. As far as the staff shock-treatment to anneal the shoulder, well, it may not be a recommended technique, but it may be at least somewhat effective, even if not perfect. That's why I asked the question to begin with, to find out if people have tried and succeeded, tried and failed, etc. I can tell you that I have tried and failed at finding staffs with over-sized shoulders, as well as turning a staff that would work. And at $10+ per staff, going through dozens of them is not feasible or practical, is it?

FWIW, I do think that Archie Perkins' writings are fantastic, but they seem to take you from a slightly more advanced place to even more advanced places, which, of course, is where most want to be. His works are generous with great information and technique. I also have the Chicago Watchmaking School's course and it is fabulous for starting pocket watch repair.

As far as Bergeon goes, I like their screwdrivers very much. I also find that, on balance, their stuff is pretty high quality. Is the price to quality ratio justified? It's certainly arguable that in many cases it's not.

Cheers, all.