Horolovar and thousands of suspension springs

[kinsler33]

Horolovar is still viable, run mostly by John Gordon and Lori Nimon. Natalie keeps in contact with John.

The other day John told us that Horolovar had just received an order for 400 12-packs of 0.005" springs. Nobody orders this many springs of a single size, and the customer is in Honduras. (His website says that he's a manufacturer of heavy machinery and also has facilities in Haiti and Ghana.)

What I told him is that most shippers won't ship packages to these countries anyway, and that I'm concerned that these tiny springs might be used in making bomb fuses or the like, which means trouble for all concerned. He's putting the order together, but everyone is somewhat uncomfortable about this.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Mark Kinsler

 

[KurtinSA]

Mark -

Definitely weird. Also, that size of a spring is hardly ever used in clocks...definitely a rare requirement. I wonder if there's any State Department guidelines about shipping to those countries. Haiti is certainly in the news, but I'm not sure about Ghana. I'd be inclined to run it up the flagpole to get some guidance.

Kurt

 

[shutterbug]

I suppose they could be used to make electrical cut-off fuses for machinery too. The purchaser might enlighten him if he asked.

 

[Schatznut]

I assume Horolovar regulary sends torsion springs outside the US and should have an Export Administration Regulations classification for them, probably EAR99. EAR is primarily concerned with "dual-use" items, i.e. commercial articles that could be repurposed for military use. Highly unlikely they would be subject to ITAR (International Traffic in Arms Regulations; 22CFR 120-130). Honduras is not mentioned under General Prohibition 8 of the Export Administration Regulations. There are certain entities in Honduras that are on the Consolidated Screening List (see https://www.trade.gov/consolidated-screening-list ).

 

[kinsler33]

I assume Horolovar regulary sends torsion springs outside the US and should have an Export Administration Regulations classification for them, probably EAR99. EAR is primarily concerned with "dual-use" items, i.e. commercial articles that could be repurposed for military use. Highly unlikely they would be subject to ITAR (International Traffic in Arms Regulations; 22CFR 120-130). Honduras is not mentioned under General Prohibition 8 of the Export Administration Regulations. There are certain entities in Honduras that are on the Consolidated Screening List (see https://www.trade.gov/consolidated-screening-list ).

Thank you x 10. I will relay all these to Horolovar. More later.

 

[Berry Greene]

Is there a use for torsion held weights (pendulums?) in earthquake detection? I can say, as as I'm sure many of you can, that 400 day clocks are very susceptible to subsonic vibration even when mounted on the sturdiest shelf. Seismic Motion - is that the term? Sounds painful eh!

 

[Schatznut]

Is there a use for torsion held weights (pendulums?) in earthquake detection? I can say, as as I'm sure many of you can, that 400 day clocks are very susceptible to subsonic vibration even when mounted on the sturdiest shelf. Seismic Motion - is that the term? Sounds painful eh!

As torsional devices, probably not because seismic waves are primarily linear phenomena, traveling out radially from the epicenter. As simple pendulums, possibly if a noninterfering means could be devised to detect their motion.

 

[kinsler33]

You'd hang a really heavy pendulum bob, say a lead-filled brake drum, from the finest piano wire that'll support it.

I don't believe that John ever shipped anything at all to whoever sent in the order for a zillion suspension springs. Just what everyone needed, just then.

M Kinsler

 

[Tim Orr]

Good evening, all!

I'm going to watch this one. Sounds to me like something akin to one of those classic Craigslist scams.

Best regards!

Tim Orr

 

[kinsler33]

What's more, the "ship to"address was to someplace we're sanctioning in Africa. Nothing has been shipped, or will be.

 

[Tim Orr]

Good evening, Mark!

Did the "customer" pay yet? Did they send a "Cashier's" check? Was it for more than the shipment is worth – because of a "mistake" by someone on their staff? Did they ask for a refund of the difference via wire transfer, while allowing seller to keep part of the difference "for your trouble"? Did the bank originally say the check is good, but that it will have to go through the complete clearance process before the funds can be released?

Or, another way to go is for the "customer" to cancel the order, then ask for a full refund – via wire transfer, of course! Then, when the original check doesn't clear ...

Experience can be a hard teacher! This is one it's better to avoid!

Best regards!

Tim

 

[kinsler33]

Insofar as I know neither springs nor money changed hands. Nobody felt like going into production of that weird size without some further enlightenment from the customer, and it never did. Springs are cut from the reel by hand except when the machine is working, which it occasionally does.

 

[Ibehooved]

Insofar as I know neither springs nor money changed hands. Nobody felt like going into production of that weird size without some further enlightenment from the customer, and it never did. Springs are cut from the reel by hand except when the machine is working, which it occasionally does.

This thread gets close to something I have been wondering about. Clearly Horolovar is vital to our hobby and businesses. I was wondering if at some point they run out of stock? But from this thread, it sounds like they are still manufacturing torsion springs. I wonder if the same is true for some of the other items they sell, like top and bottom blocks.

 

[kinsler33]

This thread gets close to something I have been wondering about. Clearly Horolovar is vital to our hobby and businesses. I was wondering if at some point they run out of stock? But from this thread, it sounds like they are still manufacturing torsion springs. I wonder if the same is true for some of the other items they sell, like top and bottom blocks.

Well, John Gordon is certainly doing his best. He was stamping out said blocks the other day, and every so often he and Lori will make up packages of suspension springs, which is about the way things worked when Chris was alive.

Chris used to build the aluminum battery adapters, so I guess John is doing those now. Other stuff was presumably made elsewhere, like the pins and that godawful beat-setting tool that I used to harangue Chris about.

In other news, I don't think there's been much progress toward settling the estate: COVID has slowed our local courts to a crawl. There might be some changes once things are probated.

M Kinsler

 

[Ken M]

"godawful beat-setting tool" Totally agree. $30?

 

[Ibehooved]

I have one. I agree it is not the greatest, but better than my ham fisted hands. Is there something better out there?

 

[KurtinSA]

On the clocks where there is space above the top block and below the top support of the suspension bracket, there's usually enough space to stick a screwdriver or ice pick or some other thin strong item. That then gives me the advantage of levering on the adjustment on the bracket...easier to make fine turns either direction. This doesn't work if the top block fits tight up against the suspension bracket, leaving the only space below the top block but the suspension spring drops through that space. Herr and Kern clocks are examples of the former; Schatz and Kundo are examples of the latter.

Kurt

 

[Schatznut]

The weakness of the Horolovar beat-setting tool is that it is an attempt to be universal and fit every possible saddle arrangement. As a result it seems to fit few of them very well. Certainly a good idea and a laudable goal, but it tries to be too many things at once.

 

[Ibehooved]

On the clocks where there is space above the top block and below the top support of the suspension bracket, there's usually enough space to stick a screwdriver or ice pick or some other thin strong item. That then gives me the advantage of levering on the adjustment on the bracket...easier to make fine turns either direction. This doesn't work if the top block fits tight up against the suspension bracket, leaving the only space below the top block but the suspension spring drops through that space. Herr and Kern clocks are examples of the former; Schatz and Kundo are examples of the latter.

Kurt

Almost all my work to date has been on Schatz and Kundo. I’m going to get some rubber tubing to slip over the Horolover tool’s “jaws” and see how that works.

 

[KurtinSA]

I guess we're getting a bit off track here. It's clear we all have had "issues" with setting the beat with incredibly small adjustments. It seems sometimes I adjust too far one way, then adjust back the other only a little bit too much, then adjust back enough and it lands where I wanted it to. Often times, though, I do that 5-6 times while getting frustrated.

The Schatz clocks can actually be easy but frustrating at the same time. The screw at the top creates the tension. Too tight, and no tool you can find it going to move that. Too loose, and then just looking at it cause it to change. But if you can find the right friction, then using your fingers and the screw through the block on the side, you have something to leverage with. I think the top block for some Kundos have a small "tab" that sticks out the back as well as the screw through the block...again, something to lever against. The problem is that the Kundos are completely friction fit. If they're tight or corroded, it's going to be hard. I typically fail to even check how the adjustment is going to go while I have the saddle off the back of the clock.

But I too frankly didn't see how anything about the beat setting tool could grab the adjustment of the saddle tight enough to work. It has to be soft-jaws, but I think you need to have more pressure otherwise it will just twist.

I've found a few tricks, one of which I mentioned. The others, I just use whatever things that jut out to work with my fingers. It's hard, but obviously doable.

Kurt

 

[Dells]

This is what I use to set the beat modified pliers.
The inside has a rubber solution brushed in to protect the brass.

 

[David Provan]

I've just found a marvelous multi - purpose beat setting tool for $5. Not only does it set the beat easily, but you can also work on your quartz clock repairs. The red crimp jaw is just the right radius.

 

[Berry Greene]

I've just found a marvelous multi - purpose beat setting tool for $5. Not only does it set the beat easily, but you can also work on your quartz clock repairs. The red crimp jaw is just the right radius.

View attachment 688602

Ha! Ha! That's a crimping tool yeah? Useless for crimping but as a beat setting tool absolutely the dogs B. !!
Is that a Kundo or Schatz Miniature in your picture? I think I see an anchor with solid pallets. Have you any experience of beat setting a Kern & Sohne Midget variety? They have pin pallets. The adjustment is so absolutely fine its almost impossible to lock it. I listen with a stethoscope and watch the minute hand movement while also assessing the the pendulum overswing and indeed its total rotation with my third eye...! Now they run but will it keep any sort of solar time? Which sun is that then? It ain't ours! Rgds BerryG

 

[Berry Greene]

I guess we're getting a bit off track here. It's clear we all have had "issues" with setting the beat with incredibly small adjustments. It seems sometimes I adjust too far one way, then adjust back the other only a little bit too much, then adjust back enough and it lands where I wanted it to. Often times, though, I do that 5-6 times while getting frustrated.

The Schatz clocks can actually be easy but frustrating at the same time. The screw at the top creates the tension. Too tight, and no tool you can find it going to move that. Too loose, and then just looking at it cause it to change. But if you can find the right friction, then using your fingers and the screw through the block on the side, you have something to leverage with. I think the top block for some Kundos have a small "tab" that sticks out the back as well as the screw through the block...again, something to lever against. The problem is that the Kundos are completely friction fit. If they're tight or corroded, it's going to be hard. I typically fail to even check how the adjustment is going to go while I have the saddle off the back of the clock.

But I too frankly didn't see how anything about the beat setting tool could grab the adjustment of the saddle tight enough to work. It has to be soft-jaws, but I think you need to have more pressure otherwise it will just twist.

I've found a few tricks, one of which I mentioned. The others, I just use whatever things that jut out to work with my fingers. It's hard, but obviously doable.

Kurt

Love your post expressing that same old agony I feel myself. I especially like your adapted quote on insanity...... It fits the bill on every level. Ga! Ga! Rgds, BerryG

 

[David Provan]

Berry, it's a pin pallet Koma Midget. Luckily it's so small you can see the pallet engagement from the top, with a magnifying glass to your right eye, and use the left to watch for overswing. I'm still very much a learner on 400 Days - this is my first- and I found beat adjustment difficult. More HERE.

 

[Berry Greene]

Berry, it's a pin pallet Koma Midget. Luckily it's so small you can see the pallet engagement from the top, with a magnifying glass to your right eye, and use the left to watch for overswing. I'm still very much a learner on 400 Days - this is my first- and I found beat adjustment difficult. More HERE.

Hi David, - Thanks for the response. Be very careful with those pin-pallets. They snap off like carrots if you're at all heavy handed!
I am certainly not an "expert" but over these last few years I have had hands on with many of the post-war "novelty" variety that were a favourite amongst our forces posted in Germany to bring home as gifts. That places the dates of mechanical manufacture up to the mid 70's. I don't doubt they always had a strange relationship with real-time. Thus, - what with the advance of quartz accuracy, - were they viewed with less favour and I'm sure that's why I have gained my collection so cheaply. Indeed Victor Miranda, a most generous man of this Forum, (you'll find him on here), even sent me a sample Schatz 53 and it has proved to be a much better performer than all the rest in my collection. (10 off now).
I have had a recent "second coming" to these clocks after being somewhat interrupted by illness. I have studied the advice of Kurt, Mark, Bill, Victor, Harry, Martin. Tinker, (many more), and John Hubby who posted a full account of his procedures wrt these Torsion clocks and is a mine of superb information on a wide range of Horological matters.
A goodly part of this from a collector/hobbyist vantage is that 400 day examples are challenging in respect of getting an acceptable result. I have all sorts of other genres in my collection including strikers, chimers, and Vienna Regulators plus several watches. Nothing of high value - mainly because I wanted to be hands on. I have surprised myself on nearly every other mechanism but I constantly come back to the Torsion variety acting silly! Aside from clean & very smooth so necessary with their high gear up ratio and tiny amounts of energy applied to the largest of balances, there is the ever present threat of flutter. This phenomenon is peculiar to the torsion clock and causes the escapement to oscillate in time with the upper (above the fork) portion of the suspension. Thus does it gain spasmodic jumps in time. Conventional wisdom has it that you raise the fork by tiny fractions until it just disappears. On these Midget & Miniature examples that can mean a very small amount indeed and its not that easy to do either. To the person that comes up with the absolute eradication of this trait will go a very large putty medal!
I have many notes on the various procedures but you won't be likely to beat John Hubby's approach to it. He has the very best of methods. (Thanks John!).
From there its mainly time and patience. For a hobbyist, well we can afford that, and maybe even enjoy it. From the professional's position these clocks must be a nightmare. Clever on a different level are those guys. Give 'em your money!
I'd end this little discourse by saying "be grateful if your balls swing and don't mind so much about the accuracy!" :<)) That said, I have 3 different examples that stand out from the crowd. Its just to demonstrate that yes it can be done.... and to tantalise you!
AN ASIDE
I recently researched the Jaegaer LeCoutre ATMOS which can cost thousands of Pounds/Dollars then! I asked the question of accuracy and they quoted 30 to 60 seconds per month. It is finely engineered and has a disc pendulum with firm adjustable weights, and a fine tune mechanism by alteration of the suspension length. It also, very tellingly, has a remontoire keeping the power very even.
Best regards and good luck. BerryG

 

[Schatznut]

I've just found a marvelous multi - purpose beat setting tool for $5. Not only does it set the beat easily, but you can also work on your quartz clock repairs. The red crimp jaw is just the right radius.

View attachment 688602

I've got a pair of these and consider them worthless for their purported use. Little did I realize that they were just mislabeled. Thanks for setting me straight!

 

[David Provan]

Berry, I winced at the thought of an ATMOS with 30 - 60 seconds a month accuracy. I get that from my fake Regulator, whose movement is an earthquake damaged Hermle with strike and chime removed and plates cut down - about ten seconds a week.

 

[kinsler33]

Berry, I winced at the thought of an ATMOS with 30 - 60 seconds a month accuracy. I get that from my fake Regulator, whose movement is an earthquake damaged Hermle with strike and chime removed and plates cut down - about ten seconds a week.

I have read that the accuracy of any 'time base'---say, a pendulum or balance wheel/hairspring assembly--is roughly proportional to its frequency. Thus quartz clocks (32,768 bps) tend to be more accurate than torsion-pendulum timepieces (0.25 bps.) I think that there was a trend toward speeding up bps rates of the last mechanical watches to improve their accuracy.

M Kinsler

 

[David Provan]

Thanks, Kinsler. That makes a lot of sense.

 

[Schatznut]

I have read that the accuracy of any 'time base'---say, a pendulum or balance wheel/hairspring assembly--is roughly proportional to its frequency. Thus quartz clocks (32,768 bps) tend to be more accurate than torsion-pendulum timepieces (0.25 bps.) I think that there was a trend toward speeding up bps rates of the last mechanical watches to improve their accuracy.

M Kinsler

I'm having a tough time wrapping my brain around that one, Mark - if that were the case, then Atmos clocks would be crummy time keepers. Mine is within half a minute every time I change it for Daylight Savings Time. If you've got a link I'd appreciate looking at it. Quartz clocks are inherently more stable than mechanical clocks because they have no time base variability brought about by moving parts (except for the crystal itself!). They're sensitive to many environmental factors, most notably changes in temperature, hence the existence of TCXOs (Temperature-Compensated Crystal Oscillators) and OCXOs (Oven-Controlled Crystal Oscillators). But even without extraneous compensation or temperature control, they're still pretty darn stable - +/- 20ppm per degree C over a range of 120C is a pretty typical temperature stability spec. There are cuts of crystals that are more stable than that - say +/- 3ppm, and in some cases even better. And of course, most of our clocks live in an environment that is within +/- 10C of nominal, which helps.