hora box clock

[bruce linde]

a neighbor reached out for help with a german tall case clock she and her husband had purchased that wasn't striking consistently... and offered me this clock to fix or dispose of. i put her tall case clock in beat and swapped the weights so the heavier one was on the strike side and am-scrayed.

i couldn't figure out how to get the movement out of the case until i noticed a locking mechanism for the bayonet mounting... cool! fortunately i had extra weights sitting on the entry hall bureau, supposedly on their way out to my garage shop (for over a month... ahem). the clock runs and strikes, and will get a good going-through in the next week or so. not totally my style, but the quality is excellent.

 

[S_Owsley]

Bruce, I'm laughing at the single rod chime. It's not exactly my style either but I think it's cool you got such an interesting odd bird for free.

 

[bruce linde]

never laugh at 'free', my son!

i do like the mounting set up and movement....

 

[tracerjack]

That single rod may surprise you. The best sounding clock I have is a single rod striker. Sounds like a cathedral bell tolling in the distance.

 

[Salsagev]

I thought this was Horo instead of Hora brand. Ive seen a few "Horo" clocks lately. Some in Florida.

 

[Steven Thornberry]

I thought this was Horo instead of Hora brand. Ive seen a few "Horo" clocks lately. Some in Florida.

Did you read the name on the movement of this clock?

 

[bruce linde]

and she just came up with the original weights... i will post photos of the movement when i go through it (hopefully) later this week....

 

[Salsagev]

Did you read the name on the movement of this clock?

Sorry if I confused. I was just relating to my recent sighting of Horo distributer named clocks.

 

[bruce linde]

Sorry if I confused. I was just relating to my recent sighting of Horo distributer named clocks.

if everyone apologized every time they were confused on this board we wouldn't have any horological posts.

apparently there was a late 1800s hora, and then another one starting in 1921. it would be cool to collect (or have) more info about the company if anyone has such?

 

[Salsagev]

That single rod may surprise you. The best sounding clock I have is a single rod striker. Sounds like a cathedral bell tolling in the distance.

I agree. I have a Morbier that sounds on a rod and sounds absolutely amazing. Also have a two rod striker grand sonnerie on a Gustav Becker.

 

[bruce linde]

my franke (discussed in another thread somewhere) also strikes on a single, longer rod... sounds like a ship coming into san francisco bay under the golden gate bridge in the fog....

 

[JTD]

apparently there was a late 1800s hora, and then another one starting in 1921.

Karl-Max Müller, in Leipzig, registered the trade name Hora in 1921. However, little is known about this company, which seems to have been a wholesaler of clocks and clock parts, according to Schmid.

The date would seem to be about right for the OP's clock, and it may have been sold by Müller, but who made it is another question. I have seen that 'scribbling' on the back plate before, but I can't remember where.

Others may be able to identify it.

JTD

 

[jmclaugh]

An interesting clock being weight driven with keyhole mount and a nice glass door, free as well! Kochmann has similar info to what JTD posted with an address of Koenigsplatz 5, two 1921 tradename registrations for Hora and notes of "manufacturer of timepieces, wholesale/retail, clock factory, parts for the trade".

 

[Salsagev]

Plenty of clocks in California to work with!

Would this not be considered a Vienna Regulator?

 

[JTD]

Would this not be considered a Vienna Regulator?
[/QUOTE]

If you mean the OP's clock, then no, I would not describe it as a Vienna Regulator.

JTD

 

[bruce linde]

well, it is an austrian regulator, yes?

 

[JTD]

well, it is an austrian regulator, yes?

Why might it be Austrian?

JTD

 

[bruce linde]

guess i meant 'in the austrian style'... bayonet mount, etc. my clock mentor sees it as a later austrian 'vienna' regulator because of the mounting, the way the crutch rod is set up, the two weights, etc.

but i think i would still describe it as 'a later two-weight time and strike austrian vienna regulator that looks like a german box clock'... i see it as more in that direction than just 'german box clock' for the reasons offered above.

 

[new2clocks]

guess i meant 'in the austrian style'... bayonet mount, etc.

yes?

The bayonet mounts were used quite a bit by Austrian makers, but also a few German makers.

The owner of tradename, Karl-Max Müller, as JTD stated, was a wholesaler located in Leipzig. Leipzig is located close to the Czech Republic, which was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. So Müller as a distributor of Austrian made clocks is not all that far fetched. German makers also had a market in the current Czech Republic.

Just a thought. I am interested in what JTD thinks.

I have seen that 'scribbling' on the back plate before, but I can't remember where.

I also remember seeing that pattern, but can not recall the maker.

Regards.

 

[Salsagev]

My Gustav Becker has the same bayonet mounting.
What is the reason for this not being a Vienna Regulator?

 

[new2clocks]

What is the reason for this not being a Vienna Regulator?

The following are my observations on what makes a clock a Vienna regulator.

The definition, based on technical components, depends on who is providing the definition. If you ask 10 highly regarded horologists, you will probably get ten different answers.

Most would probably say that a regulator needs to be weight driven, with a deadbeat escapement. Others would add time only, seconds beat, maintaining power and some would say a compensating pendulum.

Then, there is the issue of geography.

The purist definition requires the above components in a clock made in Vienna.

Others will argue that the clock could be made in Austria with the above components.

A more inclusive group will argue that a Vienna regulator is a weight driven clock with the case characteristics of late 1800's Austrian / German vintage.

My definition is middle of the road - a clock made in Austria, weight driven, with a deadbeat escapement.

And, with respect to your Becker, I have never considered a bayonet mounting as part of the requirement for a clock to be a Vienna regulator. This mounting style shows up quite often in Austrian clocks, but does not define a Vienna regulator.

Regards.

 

[Salsagev]

Looks like my post didn’t post yesterday and all the words disappeared...
In my opinion, Vienna Regulator must be weight driven, dead beat, thumbscrew beat regulation (what ever that’s called), beat plate, large tall case, multi way glass (this does not have), and solid movement plates.

When was the term “Vienna Regulator” Coined? I feel it should be considered one if the maker envisioned it to be.

 

[PatH]

There is an informative Bulletin article by Dr. Philip Rasch on the evolution of Vienna regulators in the June 1999 Bulletin. It may answer some of the questions raised here. NAWCC members can access the article online.
Log In

 

[bruce linde]

thanks, pat... according to that article (and david @ vienna-regulators.com), my clock is a 'jugendstil' vienna regulator... from the period of 1890-19920: simple case design, leaded/beveled glass, wood pendulum rod, steel-backed bob, spun bezel.

 

[new2clocks]

There is an informative Bulletin article by Dr. Philip Rasch on the evolution of Vienna regulators in the June 1999 Bulletin. It may answer some of the questions raised here. NAWCC members can access the article online.
Log In

Pat,

That is a very interesting article, but it focuses on the furniture aspect of the clock (case, dial) and not the engineering of the movement. Very little of that article analyzes the mechanics.

The article falls under what I described above as:

A more inclusive group will argue that a Vienna regulator is a weight driven clock with the case characteristics of late 1800's Austrian / German vintage.

The more technical aspects of a Vienna Regulator - the movement - is open for debate, as I mentioned in my previous post.

Regards.

 

[bruce linde]

according to a friend of mine:

A quick overview (going strictly from memory with no research) might be that most of the German factory clocks used the bayonet type movement until about the late 1800’s at which time the brass “slide in” type of mounting seems to have become more popular. Many of the Austrian clocks used the wooden seat board slide in movement mounting. If I see a clock and am not sure about the maker’s “nationality” but is has a wooded seat board, I would say it is most likely Austrian. Also, most German clocks have a trademark on the back plate of the movement, most Austrian clocks do not. Most, whether German or Austrian have the beat adjuster crutch mounted but again, I have several “older” clocks that do not. Maintaining power is rare in the Austrian week runners but pretty common in the longer runners. Quite a few of the later German clocks added maintaining power.

 

[new2clocks]

most of the German factory clocks used the bayonet type movement until about the late 1800’s at which time the brass “slide in” type of mounting seems to have become more popular. Many of the Austrian clocks used the wooden seat board slide in movement mounting.

I have two Lenzkirch clocks, one dated circa 1887 and one dated circa 1879. Neither used the bayonet mounting.

I have two Austrian Regulators, each circa 1865, and both used the bayonet mounting. Additionally, the vast majority of unmarked movements that have been identified (on these forums) as Austrian use the bayonet mounting system.

most Austrian clocks do not [have a trademark]

Other than Resch, I agree with this statement.

most German clocks have a trademark on the back plate of the movement

I disagree with this statement as written.

I would say the vast majority of German movement makers registered trademarks for their movements. However, it was a very common practice in the German clock industry for German movement makers to sell 'loose' movements to the trade without their trademarks embedded on the movements. We have seen many, many instances of this. How many times has Tatyana needed to check her huge database to identify unmarked German movements?

Regards.