Holding a wheel to polish pivot

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by rodlloyd, Jul 23, 2017.

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  1. rodlloyd

    rodlloyd Registered User
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    I need help Holding a wheel to polish pivot where the wheel is right next to the pivot and there is nothing to hold on to except the pivot itself and I am not going to do that. I have tried to use a steady-rest and make a jacot tool with no success. I look forward to a good discussion on this.

    311352.jpg
     

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  2. Bruce Alexander

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  3. AJSBSA

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    #3 AJSBSA, Jul 24, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2017
    This design (turns) works with any type and much easier to control I only use the lathe for pivots over 5mm now
    311360.jpg 242055.jpg 311360.jpg
     

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  4. R&A

    R&A Registered User

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    You can use a steady rest and put the pivot in a collet. Make sure the pivot doesn't turn on the collet or it will score it. If the collet is to loose the piece will spin out when you go to polish. So be extremely careful with this operation. Plus your pivot looks to be scored pretty bad and not true.
     
  5. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Yep, unless you want to take the wheel off, you have no choice but to either chuck on the pivot or not polish it. Just be sure that it's supported at the other end somehow.
     
  6. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Please don't try this with small hardened pivots or you will be looking at a repivoting job. If the pivot just needs to be "polished" (not burnished, filed, or turned to remove damage) then another option is a small felt buffing wheel 'charged' with your polishing compound in a Dremel tool. Still risky for fine pivots that are easily broken or bent but works OK for most 'ordinary' American clock pivots.

    RC
     
  7. R&A

    R&A Registered User

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    #7 R&A, Jul 24, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2017
    I've done this with both and have had good success. But you have to be so careful. If you don't know what your doing, you will damage the pivot. Has to run very true. Plus his pivot is not true and needs to be reworked. When pivots get down into the .035 and lower I don't do this. Like you said it will cause problems.
     
  8. MARK A. BUTTERWORTH

    MARK A. BUTTERWORTH Registered User
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    311379.png
    This situation is exactly why the Rollimat is without equal when it comes to pivot polishing. Shown is the Hand Rollimat polishing the pivots of a fly. The polishing head turns instead of the wheel. As a result, if a pivot or a wheel is close to an end, it makes no difference at all. We have since connected ours to a small lathe motor.
     

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  9. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    I was going to suggest a lathe dog but RJ's post in the
    page TAT posted shows what I had in mind.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  10. wow

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    Here I go again. I use Mark' s polishing wheels in my lathe. The polishing wheel turns and you slowly turn the wheel/pivot. Works great for me.
     
  11. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    I believe that's fine except when the pivot has deep grooves that have to be ground out. I'm not sure you can keep the filing stage even.
     
  12. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    I use lathe dogs, similar to the ones in TAT's thread.

    You might also want to look into This.
     
  13. wow

    wow Registered User
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    I start with the coursest wheel, which has squared edges, and cut the groves out, then follow up with the finer wheels till it is smooth. Love my polishing wheels. Mark gives me no discount for this.
     
  14. RJSoftware

    RJSoftware Registered User

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    #14 RJSoftware, Jul 24, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2017
    I love me a turns. Sorry 4 the mush. :)

    Eventually, in all probability, for the practicality, for the efficiency and for the dang good feel of it, you all will have to get use to using a turns.

    If you do not know, the turns is the absolute best of the best. I can hear angry knees banging on bench bottoms from the sheer shock.

    But yes, it is so.

    When and if you decide to tackle watch repair, you might want to do some micro drilling. When you think about it you say to yourself, ah heck, I can do that with my lathe in regular collets any day of the week, you sorry ol RJ...!

    Hmmmm, nope. For example, where talking about drilling a .4 mm hole in a .8 mm arbor. A typical watch lever arbor.

    Think about that for a moment. Let it soak in for a while. Think about inserting a regular drill bit in a Jacobs chuck, with the fat fiddly fingers trying to center up. Now imagine a thin brittle drill bit, thinner than a cat's whisker and if the drill bit rolls off the table it's toast.

    When you take a piece of stock that you are cutting out of a collet, you lose the center. On clock repair this is nothing. A variance of a fraction of a mm or so is nothing for the gears of a clock.

    What is the point of all this mush, RJ...?

    Well, I just want you to understand my appreciation of the tool. When you get to the point where you think, Oh my word, I can't take this. This is just too dang much...!!!

    But in the back of my mind I always know that nothing, no clock is gonna kick my !!!

    Because why? Because I drilled a .4mm hole in a .8mm arbor. That's why..!!! And if I can do that, I can do anything. I may have to do things over again a few times. Hey...

    The turns works by "centers" so it's dead on accurate. The micro drill I made uses the tiny pc carbide bits. Starting at .3mm. Some are smaller.

    It works a lot like the magic center finder. The drill bit is guided to center as the arbor is guided to center. The whole thing works like a turns so it's by centers. I made mine out of aluminum. Mine has a wheel to drive it.

    The point is I think you guys are avoiding the turns. You took a turns for the worse.
    When it's your turn, try the turns...!

    Some of you guys are waiting till you can purchase a lathe. But you can modify a turns to become a lathe. Drive with dogs/shellac.

    But the new shellac is hot glue. It works even better...!

    RJ
     
  15. dAz57

    dAz57 Registered User

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    Yeah I prefer to use turns for polishing pivots, turning the arbor between centres is safer for the pivots compared to holding one of the pivots in a chuck while polishing the other in a bed,
     
  16. AJSBSA

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    Glad there are a few of us still polishing pivots with a turns I have two clockmakers lathes and I made a Jacot attachment for the lathe but I still prefer the turns much safer too
     
  17. Hudson

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    #18 Hudson, Jul 25, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
    Still another way to hold such an arbor is with a faceplate chuck and a steady rest. I use a dial test indicatior to insure the arbor runs true. Works great.
    Pay attention to the other poster's warning about holding the pivot in a chuck collett. It is easy to score a nice pivot by chucking directly on it. (ask me how I know that!)

    Here is an arbor set up in a faceplate chuck and steady rest. This would work on your pictured arbor. 311517.jpg
     
  18. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    What! No one has mentioned their Plewes chuck yet? It's designed specially for this purpous by the late great clock-man John Plewes. It is well described in his book "Repairing & Restoring Pendulum Clocks", pages
    200 to 209. Anyone with a lathe and milling machine should be able to knock one out in a few weeks. ☺
    Willie X
     
  19. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    I guess nobody's interested in the door-hinge turns, referenced in post #12 above.
     
  20. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    Yeah well, I've done a lot of pivots with a pin vice but then I was taught to file a lot of pins in my time.
     
  21. RJSoftware

    RJSoftware Registered User

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    Where there is a will there is a way. Certainty such filing Is a needed skill. You may wonder my reply about the turns enthusiasm but a while back the subject was met with criticism. Unfounded. Then to find the absolute necessity of it...
     
  22. AJSBSA

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    #23 AJSBSA, Jul 26, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2017
    Here is a video of me using mine
    [video=youtube;Wk6xtCRF6-E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wk6xtCRF6-E[/video]

    There is another another video but you are only allowed to show one
     
  23. shutterbug

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    You didn't advertise it too well, bangster - but it certainly is something that anyone could make and find useful. I hope some followed your links ;)
     
  24. brutusamiga

    brutusamiga Registered User

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    I agree with Mark. The Rollimat is an absolute pleasure :)
     
  25. AJSBSA

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    Well Willie you piqued my interest so I bought a copy, a gem of a book well worth buying just dipped in so far but I am fascinated by the Plewes chuck seems much more complex than it need be especially since I have an adjustable back plate on my 3 jaw I will ponder on it some more.
     
  26. Jerry Kieffer

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    #27 Jerry Kieffer, Jul 31, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2017
    Rodloyd

    One method as suggested was to use a turns that of course will work.

    However, personally, I prefer to have both hands free to control a situation in the way I wish to control it. As such, I prefer the use of the Lathe utilizing machinable jaws to hold a wheel where required and a tailstock held runner. A typical setup (Junk wheel for illustration) can be seen in the attached photo.

    The radius/pocket is touched up for each use or different OD with a boring bar providing maximum accuracy and protection of the wheel. Tension is only finger tight and the perfect fitting pocket protects even the most delicate wheel. In this case the manufacturer provides machinable jaws in plastic, aluminum, and soft steel (12L14) as shown. In addition, all materials can be supplied in pie shaped jaws. A set of jaws will generally except about 50-100 modifications before they are discarded.

    Jerry Kieffer
    312145.jpg
     
  27. Bruce Alexander

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    Me too, but my copy hasn't been delivered yet. :(

    I'm no machinist so it sounds like the Plewes Chuck will be a little over my head but I'm gonna look at it anyway. If nothing else, just to see what Willie is talking about. :)
     
  28. David S

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    HI Stephen.

    The Plewes chuck is not so much about centring, but rather how to handle complex arbor / wheel combinations when you want to get close to the end of the pivot to say replace a pivot and you need more than a light hold, but a large wheel is in the way and can't be held in a conventional chuck. In one of the posts here there was a link to another thread where a number of options were discussed including reference to the Plewes chuck I believe.

    David
     
  29. Bruce Alexander

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    #30 Bruce Alexander, Jul 31, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2017
    David S,

    Did you post photos of some special tool(s), or chuck(s) you fabricated for holding wheels in situations like these?

    I have recently tried RC's "dog" approach. I think that it was relatively easy to set up and it has worked well on the few wheels I tried it on thus far. Thanks RC!
     
  30. David S

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  31. Bruce Alexander

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    That's it! That was a neat solution you came up with there. It's harder to get "stumped" when you have multiple approaches to a problem. Thanks David.
     
  32. TEACLOCKS

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    When it will not fit.


    312227.jpg 312228.jpg 312229.jpg 312230.jpg
     

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  33. Allan Wolff

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    Recently had to replace the flaking pivots on the 2nd wheels of a Hermle 1161-853 movement. These have the wheel on one end of the arbor and a large pinion gear on the other end. To hold the assembly a 1/2" thick brass disc was drilled to the size of the arbor and then sawed in half. The disc is then placed around the arbor and gripped in the lathe chuck as shown. An independent 4-jaw chuck allows the runout to be adjusted to zero.
    This provided a very firm grip and was easy to set up. It will get used again on future repairs, since Hermle 2nd arbors are the same size. 312319.jpg 312320.jpg 312321.jpg
     
  34. David S

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    Allan another good work around.

    David
     
  35. Bruce Alexander

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    Yeah, I agree, it is and that looks like a pretty tough wheel to work with.
    I only have a SC 3-Jaw (I know...rank Newbie) but when I grow up, I hope to get one of those Independent 4-Jaws :rolleyes:
     
  36. AJSBSA

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    Talking of tough wheels to work on this a French wheel I had to re pivot last year, the customer was told by one repairer it was impossible they told me after I delivered the serviced clock back to them, the Plewes chuck might of been useful for this wheel.

    attachment.jpg attachment.jpg attachment.jpg attachment.jpg attachment.jpg
     

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  37. David S

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    Lots of good methods being shown Stephen. I like that adjustable 3-jaw set up.

    David
     
  38. David S

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    Bruce when I started way back then I didn't have much $$ so my first "big" chuck was a 4 jaw independent. I have found it to be extremely versatile and once you get used to it, it hardly takes any time to centre stuff in it, and in fact you can dial it in closer than the typical 3 jaw. I never got a 3 jaw chuck.

    As shown in Stephen's set up you can hold a pin vise in a 4 jaw and centre it if you don't have an adjustable back plate like he does.

    David
     
  39. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    That's the trouble with this job, AJSBSA. You don't always know a thing is impossible until after you get it done! :chuckling:
     
  40. Bruce Alexander

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    Well, they weren't lying to the owner. In their shop, it was not possible to repair the wheel. A good Collet set might have come in handy on this wheel as well...with either end chucked. Small diameter Leaf Pinions like that can be handled very well with the right Collet
     

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