Highly damage clock received in the post

[binman]

I could have cried, This clock was one i had sold, but was returned to me for adjustment, properly beat adjustment.I will never know. Case is fine, Now to get damaged like this it must have been thrown to the ground, back facing down. the force has pulled the arbor straight through the dial, hands have fallen off and the dial has come away from the movement.The cardboard box had no marks on it and the clock case is fine, the fragile sticker was all around the carton. the clock case was wrapped several times in a special lined bubble wrap. It was sent Parcel force. The glass has remained unbroken. See Photos.

 

[binman]

Why was this Thread moved? I chose the General section, It won't get read much here.

 

[Steven Thornberry]

It's more of a peripheral issue, and has nothing to do with the clock specifically. I'm not sure what you expect of this thread. This sort of damage happens from time to time.

 

[nicksey]

I have to say that I agree with binman here. There is no valid reason to move this thread, if it was about pocket watches, for example, then yes it should be moved to that section. As it is this thread should remain where the OP wanted it to be as it is about clocks in general.

Mods

 

[dAz57]

well these sort of things should be double boxed, clock in the smaller box with foam padding, specially inside the case to support the movement, and inside a large box with packing peanuts, and putting fragile stickers on is just asking for trouble.

 

[Scottie-TX]

Well first BIN, it WILL be read here. I'm reading it. This is a VERY popular read here. I do understand the move. No question was asked nor advice sought. I read and re-read your opening statement. Are you seeking counsel on litigation or recompense? Do you seek counsel on repair of the damage? See, unless a question is asked or counsel sought it becomes a thread of general interest which generally fits, "HORO MISC". My fondest commiserations. I feel your pain. Do you have a question?

 

[nicksey]

Scottie, I'm sorry but I think the point is being missed here.

Clocks General is described as "A generalist area to gather and share information related to collecting, identifying and general care and feeding of your clock." It does not say that it is for questions to be asked, merely information to be gathered and shared.

Binman, therefore, does not need to ask a question to post here and the thread should not have been moved, he is sharing information and the fact that the post has been created invites comment from others regarding their experiences and advice on the matter.

If the OP felt that Clocks General is where he wanted to post, and the post is within the definition of Clocks General, which it is, then it should not be moved on the basis of the personal preference of a moderator.

If the post had been outside of the given definition then yes it should have been moved, but it clearly wasn't.

 

[Scottie-TX]

Moderators have that license. That's their job and they do it well. They got th' tuff job of making these decisions and I concur with this one. Over a hundred have already read this.

 

[nicksey]

Absolutely, moderators do a great job - Agreed. However they cannot get it right all the time, and if they are mistaken then there is nothing wrong with pointing that out.

So far I have seen nothing in this thread from anyone to justify the move and if a mod moves a thread then there has to be adequate justification to do so, not just a personal preference, that is not what moderators are here for.

A moderator does NOT have a blanket licence to do just as they please, they too must operate within the guidelines, rules and definitions of the message board, if the post is not in contravention to the definition of the area it is placed in and does not contravene the general rules of the message board then it should be left where it is, where the OP wanted it to be.

 

[harold bain]

I think you will find that any other threads relating to shipping problems will be found in this forum. See this thread for one of many examples. Problems with shipping are not at all limited to clocks, as just about anyone reading the message board has at some time had a bad experience related to shipping items.

 

[nicksey]

Actually no, threads relating to shipping issues/queries do appear in 'Clocks General' as well see

https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?104528-Delivery-Service&highlight=shipping

and also in Clock Repair, see

https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?100745-Tragedy-in-Real-Life&highlight=shipping+problems

If other posts relating to shipping are left in their original category then so should this one as there is no definitive necessity or justification to move it. Unless a post specifically contravenes the purpose of that category (eg a pocket watch question in a clock category) or contravenes MB rules, then it should stay where the OP intended it to be seen.

Regarding "Problems with shipping are not at all limited to clocks", true but this specific post was specifically related to a clock and should be reinstated back to where the OP posted it to, again there is no logical or legitimate justification for moving it.

 

[Steven Thornberry]

Actually no, threads relating to shipping issues/queries do appear in 'Clocks General' as well see

https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?104528-Delivery-Service&highlight=shipping

and also in Clock Repair, see

https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?100745-Tragedy-in-Real-Life&highlight=shipping+problems

If other posts relating to shipping are left in their original category then so should this one as there is no definitive necessity or justification to move it. Unless a post specifically contravenes the purpose of that category (eg a pocket watch question in a clock category) or contravenes MB rules, then it should stay where the OP intended it to be seen.

Regarding "Problems with shipping are not at all limited to clocks", true but this specific post was specifically related to a clock and should be reinstated back to where the OP posted it to, again there is no logical or legitimate justification for moving it.

Thanks for pointing out the additional threads. I've moved them to Horo. Misc. I suggest we return the discussion to the original issue posted (damage in shipping) or go on to something else.

 

[nicksey]

Steven, May I suggest that before we move on or return to the original discussion that you let visitors to the forum know why it is that you feel it necessary, in your capacity as moderator, to move quite legitimate posts that do not contravene either the description of the category that it is in, nor contravene the MB rules.

Your proposal that it is a peripheral issue not relevant to the clock in question, is itself not relevant, as the forum category description is ""A generalist area to gather and share information related to collecting, identifying and general care and feeding of your clock".

Problems that arise from shipping a clock is most definitely related to clock collecting and has every right to be discussed in this area, personally I would prefer it if you left new threads in the area the OP wanted them to be seen rather than move them to suit your own personal preferences.

 

[Douglas Ballard]

Damage in shipping . . . I have experienced this all too many times and I think the OP's post serves to remind us of the necessity of careful packing. Whenever I ship a clock I double box it and use crumpled newspaper to cushion (it does not shift and compresses very little). When I buy a clock on line I send specific instructions to the seller about double boxing, using saran wrap around the bezel, etc etc. I have found many on line sellers know little to nothing about shipping clocks and many times will stick the pendulum and key loose inside the body of the clock. Oh well . . . .

 

[Steven Thornberry]

Steven, May I suggest that before we move on or return to the original discussion that you let visitors to the forum know why it is that you feel it necessary, in your capacity as moderator, to move quite legitimate posts that do not contravene either the description of the category that it is in, nor contravene the MB rules.

Your proposal that it is a peripheral issue not relevant to the clock in question, is itself not relevant, as the forum category description is ""A generalist area to gather and share information related to collecting, identifying and general care and feeding of your clock".

Problems that arise from shipping a clock is most definitely related to clock collecting and has every right to be discussed in this area, personally I would prefer it if you left new threads in the area the OP wanted them to be seen rather than move them to suit your own personal preferences.

You are making a mountain out of a molehill. The thread is easily accessible from the Clocks General forum. I left in its place a redirect that will last 30 days. It will follow the natural course that the original thread would have followed.

 

[nicksey]

You are making a mountain out of a molehill. The thread is easily accessible from the Clocks General forum. I left in its place a redirect that will last 30 days. It will follow the natural course that the original thread would have followed.

You appear to be avoiding the question.

It's quite a simple question that as moderator you should be more than willing to answer.

 

[Steven Thornberry]

You appear to be avoiding the question.

It's quite a simple question that as moderator you should be more than willing to answer.

Quite simply, I used my judgment and determined that the issue was not a discussion of the clock itself, but a discussion of damage that can occur from the shipping. Since you obviously disagree with my judgment, you can appeal to Harold Bain or John Hubby to reverse my action.

 

[nicksey]

Thanks for that.

The issue here is that it should not have to be a discussion about the clock itself to be allowed to reside within this category.

The category is "A generalist area to gather and share information related to collecting, identifying and general care and feeding of your clock" it is not described as "an area to discuss a specific clock", but even if it had been the post was actually referring to damage caused to a specific clock anyway.

The topic posted was "generalist.....related to collecting........your clock" and should remain where it was originally placed. It was not only relevant but it was doing no harm here and in my opinion was moved just for the sake of moving it.

So yes, can we have some input from Harold Bain and/or John Hubby here as I do think that, based on the post matching the clear description given to this category, the decision made was wrong and should be reversed.

 

[Robert Gary]

Problems that arise from shipping a clock is most definitely related to clock collecting and has every right to be discussed in this area, personally I would prefer it if you left new threads in the area the OP wanted them to be seen rather than move them to suit your own personal preferences.

Your preference is as valid as the moderator's, but he makes the decision. That is the rule. If you wish, you can volunteer to be a mod. They are always looking for moderators.

Now I agree, lets get back to the topic and avoid unnecessary arguments.

RobertH

 

[John Hubby]

Nicksey, moving the thread to Horological Miscellaneous was appropriate and it will not be returned. The two threads that you found that were subsequently moved also had been posted in the wrong forums.

Damage in shipment has nothing whatever to do with the definition given for clocks general that you keep quoting. Your redaction is incomplete, leaving out the KEY elements being collecting, identifying, and general care and feeding of your clock. In other words the Clocks General Forum is there for discussion of actual clocks and their characteristics, history, maker, and other information related to the actual clocks; not what happened to them in shipment.

We attempt to manage all forums to keep them on topic; our Moderators do review their assigned forums and make these decisions on a daily basis. Some items require a judgement call, others such as this one are obvious candidates to be moved.

With respect to off-topic posts and threads, our job is made much easier by those users who report them and I would like to thank them for their help. We do review and handle each report as they are brought to our attention.

 

[nicksey]

John, As Principal Administrator, your say is final and that is your choice. I do however find your response somewhat defensive and inaccurate. However having said that I respect that it is your baby and you can do with it as you see fit.

I will however make reference to your comment about my redaction of the definition, yes this was incomplete, but for the sake of brevity, as I had already repeated the full definition several times, as you indeed mentioned yourself, it did not leave out KEY elements to mislead readers as you appear to be falsely accusing me of.

Your own definition is described as 'in other words', if it's in other words then it's not the definition is it?

You cannot hide the fact that either the definition given is incorrect or the moderator is incorrect in moving the thread. If you would like to rewrite your definition to reflect your 'in other words' definition then that would correct the error. Until then I am afraid you are in the wrong. I don't actually understand why you are unable to take light criticism without being so defensive.

I did expect you to support your moderator but not in such a way as to attempt to discredit my argument by misleading and inaccurate comments.

 

[Scottie-TX]

Sort of difficult to have a discussion without a question STEVE.

. I suggest we return the discussion to the original issue posted (damage in shipping)

Unless the topic is something like a new acquisition and others commend and congratulate, etc., just posting a topic of, "my clock got busted in shipping" really doesn't generate discussion unless readers want to make comments of commiseration.

 

[David S]

Well I think the original Thread belongs right here. There have been similar Threads in the past that appear here. Agreed there wasn't really a question, just an observation I guess.

The discussion of where this Thread should ultimately be is not a man hood issue for me. There can't be hard rules for every single condition and judgement calls are made, and I happen to support this one. By now folks will have forgotten the original post and we probably won't get any useful comments on it. Over and OUT.

 

[binman]

Hi All.I put it in General as i didn't know where else to place it, not having seen a similair thread, but was still surprised to see it had been moved. Anyway thanks for your support Nicksey, Scottie i had more packing in the clock when i sent it, When they said the clock had stopped i went through what could be wrong, as i haddnt had any trouble with this clock prior, It was sent to a couple who had never owned a clock like this, with a mechanical movement, i gave instructions and pictures to show how to get the clock running, in the first place.I rung back after about 30 minutes as i hadn't mentioned that the clock might be out of beat, but by this time it was all packed up, they didn't want to unpack it. May be they dropped it who will knows. I have left it untouched until they contact me. i can see it will need a new dial, ebay job. the movement what i can make out will run I'm sure.if there claim is excepted, i do not know then who will claim it, maybe the shipper. i think i will include how to put a clock in beat in future.I had included a photo of the back with comments and arrows showing what to do, also the front. The key and pendulum was packed separately.

 

[Scottie-TX]

Well sending or just even giving a clock to another not knowledgeable about clocks is always a crapshoot - whether they can master the concept. I had the experience many years ago when a neighbor at the apts. wanted a mechanical tambour. I musta visited her and the clock five or six times before she finally "got it". Others can tell endless stories of the same experience.

 

[nicksey]

As it happens I am right in the middle of a similar situation myself.

Most of us buy and even sell clocks and it is not often the case that buyer and seller are close enough to each other to use anything other than some form of delivery/shipping/carriage/courier service. We are then faced with how to pack this fragile item, that even in our own care needs tweaking and adjusting to run correctly, in such a way as to survive a journey in the hands of those who may not give any thought or consideration to what is inside.

Do we plaster it with 'Fragile' 'This way up' stickers, or is that just going to provoke even more abuse in transit?.

I very recently received a, shall I say 'vienna' style, american wall clock that I was looking forward to receiving. I had a place ready for it and at last it arrived. It had been packed in a polystyrene case. The sender had used polystyrene peanuts and those pre inflated air bag things to completely encase the clock in a thick surrounding of packaging. The inside of the clack had been packed out thoroughly and the clock case wrapped in many layers of bubble wrap.

However on carefully unwrapping it I was horrified to find that it had been thrown around with such force that the wooden mask or panel that the dial is mounted on had split in two. This had caused one half to snap upwards ripping of the dial surround taking one hand clean off in the process. The central section of the dial had also become separated from the main part. This could only have happened as a result of a massive shock to the parcel, it had probably been thrown or dropped out of the back of a vehicle to cause such damage.

A great shame to see this happen to a lovely old clock but other than delivering or collecting them ourselves from often a great distance it is a risk we take whenever we place our precious clocks into the hands of others.

 

[Tom McIntyre]

Clearly, if you want to safely send a clock to a distant location, you need to completely disassemble it and place the parts in separate containers. Then you ship it to a reliable clockmaker who lives near the client and can assemble, deliver and set up the clock.

Florists gave up on long distance deliveries long ago. The FTD service only ships a description of the arrangement to the local florist who actually makes the delivery.

This is another good reason to collect watches. They are much sturdier than clocks.

 

[tom427cid]

Well I think the original Thread belongs right here. There have been similar Threads in the past that appear here. Agreed there wasn't really a question, just an observation I guess.

The discussion of where this Thread should ultimately be is not a man hood issue for me. There can't be hard rules for every single condition and judgement calls are made, and I happen to support this one. By now folks will have forgotten the original post and we probably won't get any useful comments on it. Over and OUT.

ditto for me,and quite frankly IMHO if there was a question as to the logic and validity of moving the post I think that it would have been better handled via PM.
just my .02
tom

 

[Firegriff]

I never put fragile on my boxes( haven't you seen the beginning of the movie" Ace Ventura Pet Detective") it is a sure way to get your box ran over by the truck as it is loaded. and make sure it is insured for the actual value of the object the Post office will only give you the actual value of the item and it is up to you to prove the value with a receipt or a proper expert value estimate. also never put electronic on the outside it will vanish in transit. Ive even had tracked items vanish and the post office will just shrug their shoulders and give you a form to fill out.

 

[Scottie-TX]

Yeah; Sad, this post office system; sorry and getting worse recently it seems. In two recent cases of non-receipt I presented the main branch with a printout of the tracking showing, "delivered". Both times the response was, "sorry; nothing we can do." The second offered an 800 no. for a postal inspector.
This tracking service that at first seemed to be a very useful tool now makes me think it only confirms our belief of how poorly mail is handled and how futile retrieval is.

 

[Firegriff]

If the package looks like it contains something valuable it will probably be smashed or poof from existence. I have had good luck with e-bay returning my money on non deliverys.