Hide Glue 101

Discussion in 'Clock Case Restoration and Repair' started by craig, Jan 5, 2005.

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  1. craig

    craig Registered User

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    Why use hide glue?
    Hide glue is a protein-type adhesive that was used on all clocks and furniture until the 1950’s, and in some cases, even to the present day. Most are made from processed cow hides. You can buy it in two different forms. The dry form comes as crystals or pearls that you have to mix yourself in a heated container. The liquid version comes pre-mixed in a squeeze bottle. Either of these is reversible, which is a primary reason restorers and conservators of antiques exclusively use hide glue. Historically, animal hide glue has been successfully used for millennia. Many examples of furniture dating back hundreds of years testify to the holding power of this adhesive. Many industries, including piano and luthier manufacturing and repair, and antique conservationists, will use nothing else but hot hide glue, as it has some wonderful properties that make it especially well suited to woodworking.

    1) As previously stated, hide glue is reversible. This is very important because all wood is affected by seasonal humidity. As time goes on, wood will contract and expand and occasionally these forces can loosen the glue bond line that holds them together. So the repair made today on a 100 year old clock will likely have to be repaired again. The fact that the glue can be redissolved lends itself well to the fact that new hide glue can be applied directly over old hide glue and is 100% compatible.

    2) Hot hide glue will quickly transition to a gel. This initial tack is one of the benefits in the industry that makes hot hide glue so well suited for wood working. It greatly speeds up assembly time. Glue blocks and veneering are both good examples of why hot hide glue should be used. Hot hide glue has the advantage of gelling quickly and holding glue blocks in place almost immediately. By simply using hot hide glue, you can apply glue to a block of wood, known as a glue block, and hold it in place until the glue gels. As the glue quickly cools it gels and holds the glue block in place. No clamping is necessary, although the glued pieces should be set aside to dry.

    3) Hot hide glue doesn’t shrink when the water content dissipates by evaporation. This is a common problem with other water-based adhesives that shrink when they evaporate.

    4) New hide glue is compatible with old hide glue. This is a wonderful characteristic of hide glue. Although it is wise to clean off any excess old glue when repairing a joint, the new hide glue will reactivate and mix with the old hide glue for a sound bond line. This is not the case with modern adhesives. To loosen an old hide glue joint, use some warm water, or a hair dryer and the glue will release its hold. It can take a few hours for it to release with water, so be patient. A hot steam iron can be used to loosen hide glue under veneer. Once the joint has been debonded, an application of 140 degree F water will reactivate the joints and the pieces can be rejoined. Removing the shellac finish from the veneer will hasten the reactivation of the hide glue when a steam iron is used.

    To make hot hide glue, you’ll need glue, water, and a heat source to keep the mixture warm. If you decide to use hot hide glue, you’ll need a means to keep it hot. Glue pots specifically made for this application sell for approximately $100. However, a thermostatically-controlled electric kettle will do the same for about $15 and are available at the grocery store. The electric kettle makes for a double-boiler set up and is very efficient.
    Dry hide glue granules can be purchased in varying gram strengths ranging from 30 to 600. The most popular gram strengths for typical wood working range from 150 to 250. The higher gram strength glues will gel faster. I prefer the granules over the hide glue pearls, because the granules dissolve much quicker.
    To make hot hide glue, mix equal parts of dry hide glue granules with water in a glass container. Allow the glue to soak up the water. This may take 10-15 minutes if warm water is used. Heat the glue to 140°F to 145°F, while stirring it occasionally. It should be a thin creamy consistency like hot maple syrup. Heat it until all the clumps have dissolved, and the liquid is homogenous. Use a brush such as a 1/2” wide cheap paint brush to spread the glue. Since hide glue gels within a couple of minutes, clamps and cauls should be pre-set and ready for use. When clamping, the squeeze-out should be evident on all sides of the joint. If a little extra working time is required, mix in about 10% urea in the glue mixture. Also, the wood to be glued can be pre-warmed to delay the liquid-to-gel conversion. When gluing small parts, apply the glue, mate the pieces together, and hold the joint until the glue gels. Depending on conditions, the glue should gel in one to two minutes. Clamping is usually required, but not a necessity in all cases. Remember, once the hot hide glue gels, it is too late to try to bond the two pieces of wood together. If gelling occurs scrape it off, or just add a little more hot glue to the gelled glue to reheat the entire bond line. Excess glue can be removed after a couple of minutes after it gels, so squeeze-out is easy to clean up. Allow the bond line to cure overnight.

    An electric kettle as shown in the attached picture is an economic route to make hot hide glue. After the water in the electric kettle has been heated, monitor the temperature with a cooking thermometer to sustain a 145°F temperature.

    Modern Glues Are Not That Bad Are They?
    I must admit that it’s easy to pick up a bottle of carpenter’s glue when I need to glue a couple pieces of wood together. But the problem with modern glues such as carpenter’s glue, contact cement, white glue (polyvinyl acetate), yellow glue (aliphatic resin), polyurethane glues, etc. is that they will not adhere to themselves or to old hide glue. (When I refer to modern glues, liquid hide glue is not a part of that group, even though it was invented in the 1950’s). Modern glues have more disadvantages for both short term and long term use.

    1) For modern glues to bond the joint back together, the old hide glue must be scraped away, and usually the wood needs to be dampened and heavily scraped to remove any residual hide glue from the surface. In these circumstances, the newly bonded joint will not be nearly as strong as before, because residual incompatible glues don't bond together well. Further, it is difficult to get all of the old hide glue out of mortise and tenon joints or holes, making a sound bond line nearly impossible.

    2) Modern glues will not take a stain. When modern glues, even a thin film, are left on the surface of the wood they will show through on subsequent finishes as a lighter spot.

    3) Modern glues take longer to set up than hot hide glue. They need to cure overnight with a clamping force applied to the joint to hold it together. Hot hide glue gels within a few minutes, but modern glues do not gel like this.

    4) It cannot be emphasized enough that any of the modern glues, which are just a cured plastic, are not considered reversible. This attribute makes subsequent repairs very well near impossible without damaging the wood itself. These types of glues were never used on antiques. For example, I see a lot of repairs to kitchen clock tops that have been glued together with carpenter’s glue. Most have poorly aligned joints with a visible glue line at the repair. A misalignment could occur during the glue process, or as a result of humidity effects on wood, resulting in a need for another repair. The down side to the irreversible characteristics of modern glues means that all of the previous plastic adhesive must be removed for a subsequent repair to take hold of the wood. Most glues dry by evaporation. White and yellow glues cure by a combination of evaporation and oxidation when exposed to the air. Once cured, they are no longer fully soluble by their solvent, which is water. When white or yellow glue is used on a joint, it puts a plastic coating across the surface of the wood, which also blocks the wood pores. A subsequent repair using any type of adhesive that relies on absorption into the wood and evaporation will be impeded from being effective because it cannot penetrate the plastic coating, which is not dissolved by the adhesive solvent. The old adhesive must be thoroughly cleaned off by scraping down to clean wood in order for the joint to stay together.

    5) Modern glues are not good for the long term. All wood movement occurs as a result of seasonal changes. Eventually a glue bond line will weaken or fail. Modern glues applied to a failed glue joint will not last as long as one where hide glue is used on a joint previously bonded with hide glue.
     
  2. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    Thanks Craig for the comprehensive coverage on hide glue. I always thought hide glue was something you concealed, hid, or otherwise cached to prevent theft. But Craig I've never seen hide glue for sale. Home Depot? Rocklers? I'd love to give it a try. O.K. I confess. I'm still on Elmers. WHEW ! That felt good. What a burden lifted.
     
  3. TomT

    TomT Registered User

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    Liquid hide glue is available from Woodworkers Source while the dry glue is available from suppliers like Van Dykes Restorers and other on-line suppliers. A google search will turn up other suppliers.

    As an added note, Hide glue is also the product used to create the "chipped" glass effect that was very popular around the turn of the century (1900). The glass was called Glue-Chipped because hot hide glue was applied to the glass. As the glue cooled and contracted, it actually pulled chips of glass off creating the effect.

    Once you start using Hide glue, you will not go back to other products.

    Regards,
     
  4. swolf

    swolf Registered User
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    Thanks for a great dissertation Y ou have convinced me. No more epoxy.

    Sherm
     
  5. Robert Gary

    Robert Gary Registered User
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    Liquid hide glue is available at Home Depot and most other hardware stores. It comes in a brown plastic bottle shaped very much like the bottle for Elmer's Glue.

    RobertG
     
  6. Ed Jones

    Ed Jones Guest

    I hope Craig doesn't mind me saying this but he has an excellent book on the subject intitled "Clock Case Refinishing and Restoration". Well worth the cost if you intend to do any work on older clock cases or older wood products in general.

    Ed
     
  7. Mike Phelan

    Mike Phelan Registered User

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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ed Jones:
    I hope Craig doesn't mind me saying this but he has an excellent book on the subject intitled "Clock Case Refinishing and Restoration". Well worth the cost if you intend to do any work on older clock cases or older wood products in general.

    Ed <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Can we have an ISBN number or title, please? Sounds interesting!
     
  8. Bruce Barnes

    Bruce Barnes Registered User
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    Hi Ed,

    I will be needing just such guidance in the near future,where would find this book for retail?

    Thanks,

    Bruce
     
  9. Ed Jones

    Ed Jones Guest

    Bruce & Mike,
    I bought my copy of the book directly from Craig Burgess. He is a member of the NAWCC, Lone Star Chapter #124. If you click on Craig's name in his post you can go to his public information and send him an e-mial. I am sure he will respond with information on purchasing the book.
    Ed
     
  10. Bruce Barnes

    Bruce Barnes Registered User
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    Thanks Ed,I shall do so.
    Bruce
     
  11. craig

    craig Registered User

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    Appreciate the kind words, guys.
     
  12. craig

    craig Registered User

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    John,
    Whether veneer or otherwise, I only use hide glue. The liquid variety is very convenient.

    There's a book on Amazon.com written by Tage (pronounced: Tay) Frid in 1981 that gives a great description of hammer veneering for veneering large sections such as backboards.

    Tage's hardbound book is entitled "Tage Frid Teaches Woodworking - Shaping, Veneering, Finishing", ISBN: 0-13-882226-3. I treasure this latest acquisition and wealth of info.

    The December issue of Fine Woodworking includes a good article on using hide glue. Home Depot still has the Dec. issue. The article author makes his own liquid hide glue and sells it. One thing to remember, liquid hide glue has a shelf life of about one year.

    The detractors of the liquid variety of hide glue say it is not as strong as carpenter's glue. But the problem is not in strength, but in application and weather conditions when gluing. If you use liquid hide glue in damp weather, it may take longer to dry, and if conditions are not conducive, the project may need to be taken to a drier location, assuming the glue's expiration date has not passed. This is just a small inconvenience, but the benefits greatly outweigh these.

    One thing I did not mention in the original posting:

    Hide glue has a wonderful benefit of being able to be used to fill pores or grain. When working with veneer, I apply hide glue to the faying surfaces and adhere them together. I use cauls ( to flatten), wax paper (between the caul and veneer), and masking tape (to hold the veneer in place). Once this has dried, I remove my clamping setup (and any remants of stuck wax paper), and spread a thin coat of hide glue over the entire veneer surface. Allow this to dry. When dry I remove the excess dried glue with a slightly damp rag, scrubbing across the grain. Subsequently, when applicable, I apply a chemical dye such as potassium dichromate. Then I build the finish with shellac. The advantage of the hide glue is that it fills the grain, and is compatible with the finish. I am convinced this is what was done many years ago to expedite the finishing process. Not only that, but it gives most excellent results. You cannot do the previous process with any other glue besides hide glue, as you well know.

    Glue spots or squeeze-out have been the nemesis of woodworkers since the advent of carpenter's glue several decades ago. Hide glue doesn't have this problem.

    My apologies to everyone for being so verbose, but there is so much to share in this regard. Chapter 124 in Dallas has a class on this subject, if you're interested. See Classes for Chapter 124. FYI, the class description is near the bottom of the class listing.
     
  13. Mike Phelan

    Mike Phelan Registered User

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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ed Jones:
    Bruce & Mike,
    I bought my copy of the book directly from Craig Burgess. He is a member of the NAWCC, Lone Star Chapter #124. If you click on Craig's name in his post you can go to his public information and send him an e-mial. I am sure he will respond with information on purchasing the book.
    Ed <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Thanks, Ed, I shall do that!
     
  14. fume happy

    fume happy Registered User

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    I would just like to say thank you. Even though this tutorial has been around for a while, I just recently got my ground hide glue. All i have to say is, wow. If you look at my flickr account you'll see a steeple clock that has been apart for close to 2 years, sitting on my bench. I"ve tried titebond hide-glue and it works great for veneering, but it was so hard to clamp these case parts together. I've tried numerous times and had to seperate them again. Today, thanks to hot hide glue, I reassembled the case in about an hour. I still have to attach the bottom, but I will be sure and post pictures when done. Hot hide glue is a dream to work with. If you haven't used it, you're really missing out.
    Thanks again!
    ~Fumey
     
  15. RJSoftware

    RJSoftware Registered User

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    I find that I can simply heat up some hide glue in a ceramic coffee cup. I give it about 30 to 60 seconds.

    It stays warm enough to work with. Then I put cup in fridge for next time. Add a little water if looking too thick.

    I use thick when I want really good tacking.

    Also have found that putting ice cube in plastic bag to speed tack helps. Helps to influence small veneer patches to stay in place when normally they would curl.

    (The ice cube causes glue to gel quicker)

    Although I will agree that setting up some kind of form to bound veneer in place is much better than the ice cube method. Just sometimes the ice cube is more practicle.

    RJ
     
  16. shutterbug

    shutterbug Super Moderator
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    Well, maybe I missed it in the post but I'm curious about how to "undo" the glue if there is a problem. It was mentioned that the glue is reversable. How do you do it? Thanks!
     
  17. TEACLOCKS

    TEACLOCKS Registered User
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    I was told to use a glue that would undo with heat. not pull the wood apart. many glues to day and yesterday will do the same.
     
  18. craig

    craig Registered User

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    shutterbug,
    If you need to relocate a re-veneer job, moisture and heat will cause the glue to release. There are various ways: usually a hair dryer will work. If that doesn't, some moisture on the joint will cause the glue to soften. We've got a room humidifier that blows a small stream of steam. It works great. A tea kettle will do the same.

    Hide glue melts around 130 degrees or so. It also releases in contact with water.

    This reversable characteristic is what has facilitated repairs for centuries. Most other glues do not share this same characteristic, and are not used by conservators. Why is that? It's because wood moves with the seasons as the humidity changes. This movement by the wood (called hygroscopic) is what eventually causes joints to fail when environmental conditions are adverse or extreme. Given this fact that wood moves means that a reversible process must be used.

    When I get old, I just hope that the dwindling supply of nice clocks are restored by someone like you who cares enough to ask this question.
     
  19. DavidEFahrenholz

    DavidEFahrenholz Registered User

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    Hide Glue is also available form Woodcrafters as well.

    It is a nice strong joint once you understand the setting properties. Nice article Craig.
     
  20. TEACLOCKS

    TEACLOCKS Registered User
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    Woodcraftes is where I got my story.
     
  21. P Schlenker

    P Schlenker Guest

    Craig,

    Excellent post concerning hide glue!

    I was introduced to hot hide glue in the '60s where it was used almost exclusively in all of the woodworking courses at the college I attented. One of my favorite properties of this glue is that you can get maximum joint coverage with minimal "squeeze-out," which is then easily removed after hardening with a sharp wood chisel. And the wood will readily accept a stain on the previously glue covered surface. Very versatile glue!

    You also included some applications that I was NOT aware of -- Thanks for the wealth of info!

    P.S,
     
  22. TEACLOCKS

    TEACLOCKS Registered User
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    WHAT GLUE WOULD YOU USE TO GLUE THE WOOD BELLOWS TO THE PLASTIC WHISTLE :???:??
     
  23. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    For that app. I use contact cement. Easily removeable - bonds well to plastics.
     
  24. bangster

    bangster Super Moderator
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    Yes, but wouldn't hot hide glue also work? (Just asking.)

    bangster
     
  25. Chris Radano

    Chris Radano Registered User

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    I do appreciate the accurate restoration process using hide glue. However, I use wood glue in limited quantities. I do not wish to make too much of repairs being reversable. That is why I made the repair!
    I have a Waterbury Regulator #2, which is one of those cases where the case joints have all dried, & deteriorated. The entire case should be taken apart, and reassembled. For this, I would certainly consider the use of hide glue throughout. Some small areas of rosewood veneer are missing from the base, would consider hide glue for repair of this case.
     
  26. harold bain

    harold bain Forums Administrator
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    Teaclock, for your bellows question, contact cement was what was originally used on most of these with the plastic base. If it is wood on wood, then hide glue would work.
    Harold
     
  27. TEACLOCKS

    TEACLOCKS Registered User
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    Thank you about the contact cement, the glue that was used before seemed rubbery.
     
  28. Robert Gary

    Robert Gary Registered User
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    O.K., everybody:

    I just mixed up my first batch of hide glue. Being new to the procedure, I mixed up about 1,000 times more than I needed for my immediate application. I will need more tomorrow, though. Will this batch still be good then? I think I read somewhere on the board that two or three days is fine.

    Am I correct, or should I dump this and start over tomorrow with a new batch?

    I had to buy pearls because that is all I could find at Woodcraft. Their instructions say to add 4 times the volume of water and let it set overnight. That gave me a lumpy, gelatinous mass that wasn't good for anything. So I added more water and heated it all slightly


    Robert G
     
  29. craig

    craig Registered User

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    Robert,
    The pearl-type of hide is more difficult to use because it takes so long to dissolve. But once you get it started, you'll be just fine. I use a grocery store thermometer to monitor the temperature, which should stay between 140 and 150 F. These inexpensive thermometers cost about $6 or so.
    The glue should be fairly thin, and definitely an even consistency. If the stuff gels on you before you are able to get the joints together, not a problem. Just take the parts apart and let the glue gel for about 10 minutes. Then the glue will just roll off, and you can start again.
    The hardest part of hide glue at first is dealing with how it gels. Once it does gel, you should leave the joint undisturbed for several hours until it cures.
    An IR heat lamp of 250W about a foot away and directed at your work will delay the gel process. Thinner glue mixture, and adding 10% urea (available from the same place you got your glue) will definitely delay the onset of the gel process. Just think of it like jello. Once jello sets, you cannot mix it or it just turns into clods. In fact there's more similarities between jello and hide glue than I care to mention here!

    Not too much magic here, just a different way of doing things. Hide glue is as easy to make as jello, and practically the same process to make it.

    Your glue should last maybe a week covered up in the fridge. If you use a glass container, you can just drop the whole thing in 145 F degree water and it will re-liquify.
     
  30. Robert Gary

    Robert Gary Registered User
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    Thank you, Craig.

    RobertG
     
  31. Bill Ward

    Bill Ward Registered User
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    Hmmm; I wonder if it could be frozen?
     
  32. P Schlenker

    P Schlenker Guest

    I've ordered a bottle of Titebond liquid hide glue from Rockler. I intend to use it on some small veneer overlays on a clock that I'm making. I'm unfamiliar with the liquid variety. It's advertised as, ready to use ... no heat.

    My question: Is the liquid type hide glue REVERSIBLE? If so, would it be accomplished with heat? Moisture? Both? Or is it non-reversible?

    P.S.
     
  33. P Schlenker

    P Schlenker Guest

    I've found the answer to my question at Titebond's website.

    "Titebond Liquid Hide provides superior creep-resistance, offers excellent sandability and is unaffected by finishes. Its sensitivity to moisture allows for easy disassembly of parts, a critical benefit in antique restoration or the repair of musical instruments."
    Application temperature: Above 50 degrees F.
    Assembly time after glue application: 10 minutes (70 degrees F @ 50 percent RH)

    P.S.
     
  34. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    I gather that you've never used it. I'm correct. New to it a few mos. ago, INDEED I'm a believer. You can use it as a filler. It is the ONLY glue that won't cause a stain on your finish. If a little oozes out of the joint a wet rag will quickly eradicate it. I feel it does have it's limits as a STRONG glue. I could be wrong. Often I am. I believe there are other glues that are stronger but also have undesirable qualities associated with their strength.
     
  35. P Schlenker

    P Schlenker Guest

    Scottie,

    I've never used the LIQUID form of hide glue, only the HOT hide glue (see my earlier post in this thread).

    As I understand it:
    1. HOT hide glue is (re-)activated by heat and moisture.
    2. LIQUID hide glue is (re-)activated by moisture only.

    I was taught in my college courses using HOT glue, to let the "squeeze out" harden and then chip it off with a sharp wood chisel -- if you try to wipe it off, it forces the glue into the grain, which affects the staining.
    It makes sense that wiping the LIQUID glue with a damp cloth would work best.

    Actually, what I'm trying to do right now is glue a couple of small veneer overlays on the face of a small tambour shaped clock that I'm making. I know "nothing" about gluing veneer overlays! Perhaps there is a better glue to use for this purpose? I have two beautiful book-paged walnut burl overlays cut out and ready to attach to the front of the clock. "Squeeze out" is not an option. It's a one-shot deal!

    Any sugestions would be very much appreciated.

    P.S.
     
  36. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    Apparently there are noticeable differences between hot and liquid hide glue. I've never used hot. One property of liquid hide glue is that it does NOT stain the surface when it enters the grain - a tribute to it's use as a grain filler. I recently finished some very tedious veneer patching and replacement of purling. I did ALL of it with liquid hide glue and it turned out great. With it I could do what is not possible with any other glue - just literally pour it on and wipe it off. It even helped close the seams. Now if I'm concerned about second operations staining the bare wood, what I do is lay down a couple layers of shellac to seal it first. Then do the patch or whatever because it can be removed from the finish - not the wood.
     
  37. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    Recently a respondent on another topic board replied with respect to the use of ELMERS wood glue that was to hold a piece under stress - that is it had to be clamped to retain it's position - he responded, "Cod, MA posted 03-01-2006 07:40 AM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Uh oh. PVA adhesives (Elmer's) creep with applied load, and are not suitable for structural uses because of that.
    I haven't gotten a response to my question asking what he meant. What's your opinion? What was he saying?
     
  38. P Schlenker

    P Schlenker Guest

    I'm confused, too.
    Elmer's carpenter glue, the yellow one, is an aliphatic resin -- the white one is a poly-vinyl acetate (PVAc) -- don't know what the "c" means. I can only assume he means that the white glue creeps under unequally applied pressure. Structual:???:
     
  39. Scottie-TX

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    Yep; The yellow one. I figgered maybe Poly Vinyl Adhesive. We'll see. I glued it originally with hide glue, clamped it for 24hrs. and next day released the clamp. 10 secs. later "SNAP". Bond broken. So I got serious. I LOADED it with ELMERS literally pouring it into the joint hoping the glue would form a gusset in the gap making up for the lack of contact area available for the piece which was VERY minimal - perimeter contact - about an eighth inch. We'll see. My major concern is success. A conical shaped grille held against it's will to return to it's 5 degree warp will later crack because it can't overcome the bond of Elmer's Glue.
     
  40. Chris Radano

    Chris Radano Registered User

    Feb 18, 2004
    2,649
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    Pennsylvania
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">A conical shaped grille held against it's will to return to it's 5 degree warp will later crack because it can't overcome the bond of Elmer's Glue. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
    I guess that's when you use hide glue as a crack filler.

    I have used Titebond carpenter's glue on some of my clocks before learning about hide glue. In one instance, I glued the top of a weight regulator. The top had already warped very slightly- enough to break the old glue bond, but not enough to be a visual distraction. So when I repaired it with modern glue, the bond only occurred where wood contact was made (even when clamped). How much more will the wood move? I suspect the wood did the majority of it's warping in the first 100 years.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I LOADED it with ELMERS literally pouring it into the joint hoping the glue would form a gusset in the gap making up for the lack of contact area available for the piece which was VERY minimal - perimeter contact - about an eighth inch </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    With glue, less is more. Maybe it is better to adhere the wood that contacts, then fill?
     
  41. waricks

    waricks Registered User

    Jun 2, 2008
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    I want one
    Washington State
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    WOW - this is a gem of an old post. I really learned a lot about glue here.

    :clap:
     
  42. Stormy

    Stormy Registered User

    Jan 22, 2007
    149
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    never mind, my mind went south i think, or maybe west?

    Stormy
     
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