Hershede Help

wow

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Working on this one and having trouble adjusting the chime train. It worked fine when I got it except for the chime train. The only sloppy bushing in the train was the one behind the gathering pallet. I took it down, cleaned everything, polished the pivots, bushed the sloppy hole, and put it back together. Same problem. It will go into warn on the 1/4, 1/2, and hour. It will not on the 3/4 hour unless I nudge the gathering pallet or the pin wheel or almost any wheel in the train. It then runs the train. But....it drags and sometimes stops before the gathering pallet reaches cut off. The C-2 wheel has end shake adjustments on both ends. I have tried many positions, but those adjustments don’t change the loss of power. The vertical wheel that drives the pin wheel is not too tight. I’m not sure what to try next. The weight is one of the large 30 or so pounders. I’ve done a few of these but this one's got me stumped. Ideas appreciated.
Will

1842BDF2-3194-433A-BE99-FC985AA0A5BF.jpeg C0A4062B-77A3-4E23-840B-5FDEBE2EF353.jpeg 17DBD563-C7F0-41C7-AF2C-FD4E1E3692F2.jpeg 296AB203-8C5F-4879-B836-1899EA39988A.jpeg
 

Isaac

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Does it only drag on the 3rd quarter hour when the chime train is running? Could be something going on with a ratio wheel connecting the chime train to the drum if it always occurs at that specific point.
 

wow

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Does it only drag on the 3rd quarter hour when the chime train is running? Could be something going on with a ratio wheel connecting the chime train to the drum if it always occurs at that specific point.
Most of the time it warns and chimes correctly on all but the 3/4. And, yes, I looked at that ratio wheel and arbor and can’t see anything. What should I look for?
 

Dick Feldman

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Will,
My first inclination is that you are having a power problem.
My second is that there is wear in the train that you do not recognize as being critical.
It is far fetched to me that only one pivot hole would show wear in that train.
With some 30 lb on that cable, by the time the train will not run, things are serious.
The wear will be through out and it may be a matter of what is tolerable side play in the pivot holes.
Most likely the other two trains need attention as they will probably fail in a short while.
Is your goal to have a long lasting repair or is it to just make it go?
JMHO.
Dick
 
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Willie X

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I've seen quite a few fan bridges that were to tight, no end play. Also, a floppy fan or miss-adjusted fan can cause the problem you are having there. Willie X
 

wow

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Will,
My first inclination is that you are having a power problem.
My second is that there is wear in the train that you do not recognize as being critical.
It is far fetched to me that only one pivot hole would show wear in that train.
With some 30 lb on that cable, by the time the train will not run, things are serious.
The wear will be through out and it may be a matter of what is tolerable side play in the pivot holes.
Most likely the other two trains need attention as they will probably fail in a short while.
Is your goal to have a long lasting repair or is it to just make it go?
JMHO.
Dick
Dick, I thought the same thing about the pivots. I carefully inspected every pivot in every train and could not see enough slop in any but the chime gathering pallet and it was not extreme. Since others I have worked on needed that bushing, I thought it would too. There is good end play in every arbor. I tend to think the problem is in the C-2 area but a nudge anywhere in the train gets it going. I just read Willie’s comments about the fan. I will check that out and report back.
 

wow

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I've seen quite a few fan bridges that were to tight, no end play. Also, a floppy fan or miss-adjusted fan can cause the problem you are having there. Willie X
Willie, there is good end play in the chime fan but I do not know how to adjust the fan. It has two little springs on the wings. The wings are tight and do not open easily. Would you explain about adjusting the fan?
Thanks
 

Isaac

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The fly should be adjusted so that both wings are completely parallel to each other. If the fly is unbalanced, it will cause all sorts of power issues.

Another suggestion I'd make is when the movement jams up, try gently lifting the chime weight (taking the power out of the movement) and seeing if there's any counterrotation from any wheels - that might show if something's binding up.
 

wow

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The fly should be adjusted so that both wings are completely parallel to each other. If the fly is unbalanced, it will cause all sorts of power issues.

Another suggestion I'd make is when the movement jams up, try gently lifting the chime weight (taking the power out of the movement) and seeing if there's any counterrotation from any wheels - that might show if something's binding up.
Parallel, huh. I’ll try that and the weight thing.
Thanks
 

Willie X

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Question, how much run do you have from the time the train is released until the drum pin actually touches the lifting piece?

Also, check the hammer string on the first hammer to lift on the third quarter. It might need to be loosened a bit. Also again, that hammer arm pivot slot could be to tight, or have some stickiness in its slot. Also, also, also, check that same hammer's tension spring screw. If it appears to be further in than the others, back it out one or two turns and make note of your adjustment. This way the original adjustment can be put back, if you find the real problem later on.

Willie X
 

Bruce Alexander

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Hi Will,

It worked fine when I got it except for the chime train.
What was/were the issue(s) with the Chime Train before your overhaul?

Take it from me, it's a mistake to adjust C-2's end-shake if there are no signs that it has been fooled with recently or if you have to do some work to the bearings. Been there, done that, found out not to do it again.

It looks to me like you may need to adjust the depth of your right-angle C-2 to Pin-Barrel drive arbor gear. It's easily adjustable for a reason. If it's a little too tight there, you could see the type of issues you are describing. You shouldn't need to increase the clearance too much.

Once you've done that, I'd push the drive arbor gear up so that it is clear of C-2 and check C-2 for end shake.

WillsHerschede.jpeg

If you haven't already tried these adjustments, give them a try to rule out depth issues here.

The Barrel rotates twice per hour, right? There's something very specific going on here.

This may be what Isaac was referring to in post #2, I'm not sure.

Good luck,

Bruce
 

shutterbug

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First, be sure the 3/4 chime is set right. The hour is the highest lift, and the 3/4 hour should be the auto-sync. When the chime hangs on the 3/4, try going around the dial with the hand 15 minutes at a time to see if it ever takes off. If it does, the hand is on wrong.
After that, disconnect the chime drum and see if the train runs without it. If it does, you have narrowed it down to the problem area.
 

wow

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Well, here’s where I am now. I adjusted the fly parallel (they were not). I checked end shake there and it is fine. I adjusted the vertical wheel best I could. (Suggestions) I set the pin wheel so the first pin is lifted after the warn and chime begins. It is now warning at every quarter, chiming at 1/4 and 1/2. At 3/4 it warns, begins chiming and stops during chime. At the hour it warns and begins chime but also stops during chime. I marked the place where it stops and it stops at the same place on the pin wheel both times. When it stops I can pry the vertical arbor upwards and it starts chiming or I can push C-2 wheel left or right and it chimes. The end shake adjustments on C-2 seem to make little difference.How should they be adjusted? I have not tried Isaac’s weight lift yet but plan to next.
Your suggestions have been excellent. Thanks for your help.
 

shutterbug

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It sounds more like a tooth, but since the chime wheel makes two full rotations every hour it should show up at other times too. But check the lower wheels for bent teeth or pinions.
 

Bruce Alexander

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When it stops I can pry the vertical arbor upwards and it starts chiming or I can push C-2 wheel left or right and it chimes. The end shake adjustments on C-2 seem to make little difference.How should they be adjusted?
Will, it sounds to me like you need to loosen the set screw, and adjust the depth of the right-angle gear (pinion) so that it doesn't engage the drive gear so deeply. The set screw is right below the white arrow in my edited photo above.

As far as the end-shake of C-2 is concerned, I think that end-shake may be adjustable because of the lateral forces on the wheel. It must not bind of course, but the wheel shouldn't shift laterally so much that the pivot shoulder is being pushed against the plate under load.

Something you may also want to check is whether you have to same issue on each of the three chime melodies.

You may need to install the dial/face to hold the chime melody settings during your test. If the issue doesn't occur on all three melodies, make sure that the long pivots of the multiple chime melody pin barrel are not bent, (even in the slightest). A slightly bent pin barrel pivot cause cause depthing issues when the pin barrel is supported near the end of the bent pivot. The barrel will slightly "wobble" instead of the pivot end. The tail wagging the dog so-to-speak. I've seen this happen with a Hermle movement before. I have not seen it in a Herschede.

Hope that helps rule some things out.

Good luck with it.

Bruce
 
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wow

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Will, it sounds to me like you need to loosen the set screw, and adjust the depth of the right-angle gear (pinion) so that it doesn't engage the drive gear so deeply. The set screw is right below the white arrow in my

As far as the end-shake of C-2 is concerned, I think that end-shake may be adjustable because of the lateral forces on the wheel. It must not bind of course, but the wheel shouldn't shift laterally so much that the pivot shoulder is being pushed against the plate under load.

Something you may also want to check is whether you have to same issue on each of the three chime melodies.

You may need to install the dial/face to hold the chime melody settings during your test. If the issue doesn't occur on all three melodies, make sure that the long pivots of the multiple chime melody pin barrel are not bent, (even in the slightest). A slightly bent pin barrel pivot cause cause depthing issues when the pin barrel is supported near the end of the bent pivot. The barrel will slightly "wobble" instead of the pivot end. The tail wagging the dog so-to-speak. I've seen this happen with a Hermle movement before. I have not seen it in a Herschede.

Hope that helps rule some things out.

Good luck with it.

Bruce
Thanks, Bruce. I have adjusted that set screw about a dozen times but never got it right till I tried your suggestion. That’s where the main drag was, evidently. It’s going as smooth as silk right now on Westminster without the dial. Gonna put the dial on later today and check with tunes that use all eight pins and hammers. Almost there. I’d still be trying to get it right next month probably without all the help here on the MB.
 

Bruce Alexander

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Fingers crossed Will.

We normally don't deal with right-angle gear pinions of this configuration, so I definitely understand cause I've been there.

This situation is what really taught me to leave factory settings alone unless it's absolutely necessary, and then only when I think that I have clear idea of what I'm trying to accomplish. I'm a clock smith, not a Horologist. :banghead:

The Horologists here, past and present, have bailed me out many a time.

It's nice when everything comes together. Have fun.

Best regards,

Bruce
 

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