Herschede mantel model 800 won't start.

HenryNox

Registered User
Aug 3, 2022
8
1
3
41
Country
I have a Herschede model 800 mantel clock, and the pendulum will stop almost immediately when I try to start it swinging by hand. I've tried to change the level of the clock, but it won't go more then a few seconds before the pendulum stops swinging.
The clock does chime perfectly when I manually advance the hands.
I am brand new to clock repair so I'm not sure where to start.

Here is a picture of the movement without the pendulum.

20220803_140058.jpg
 

wow

NAWCC Member
Jun 24, 2008
6,581
1,048
113
77
Pineville, La. (central La.)
Country
Region
Is it wound up? Does it tick when you swing the pendulum? If so, do the ticks sound even? They should be steady ticks. It may be out of beat.
 

HenryNox

Registered User
Aug 3, 2022
8
1
3
41
Country
It's wound up on all three springs. I've tried changing the length with the screw on the pendulum, but no matter the length, it still only swings for like 10 or 15 ticks before it stops. Feels like it's only swinging from the initial push from my fingers. I'll post a video later if that will help.
 

wow

NAWCC Member
Jun 24, 2008
6,581
1,048
113
77
Pineville, La. (central La.)
Country
Region
It's wound up on all three springs. I've tried changing the length with the screw on the pendulum, but no matter the length, it still only swings for like 10 or 15 ticks before it stops. Feels like it's only swinging from the initial push from my fingers. I'll post a video later if that will help.
Yes. A video would definitely help.
 

disciple_dan

NAWCC Member
Donor
Mar 10, 2016
1,619
163
63
64
Plant City
Country
Region
It appears that half of the pin that holds the bob on is missing. It won't work correctly like that. Is it just slipping out of its hole? It also looks like the leader is rubbing the back plate. Danny
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jonas

tracerjack

Registered User
Jun 6, 2016
2,559
548
113
Lodi, CA
Country
Region
I agree that the pin in the leader has been pushed almost through its hole. Can’t hang a pendulum properly with a pin like that. Leader isn’t properly hanging in the crutch foot either. FYI, the rating nut on the pendulum is for adjusting the time if too fast or too slow. It doesn’t have any relationship to the movement of the pendulum with the escapement. Until you have it in beat, it is swinging only from the initial push of your fingers.
 

HenryNox

Registered User
Aug 3, 2022
8
1
3
41
Country
Thanks for the feedback so far. I'm good with machines, but a complete noob with clocks.

Here is a video of me trying to start the clock with and without the weight.


I also centered the pin holding the weight as was mentioned previously.

I saw from other clock videos that the arm might visibly twitch when you move it without the weight on, but it doesn't look or feel like that's happening.

I'm thinking I might need to pull the movement out of the case, but I'll wait on that until I do a bit more research.

Here are some pictures I took today.

20220804_165204.jpg 20220804_165139.jpg
 

tracerjack

Registered User
Jun 6, 2016
2,559
548
113
Lodi, CA
Country
Region
From the way the pendulum swings, I suspect the crutch has slipped on the arbor so far the verge can not work and the escape wheel is not advancing at all. Can you remove the pendulum, then move the crutch foot by hand. It should move left and right equal distances. If it is not, the crutch needs to be centered. Most crutches on this type of movement are friction fitted. It can be moved in relationship to the verge by finger pressure. If it is too far off, you may have to reach in and hold the verge steady while moving the foot. If I haven’t explained this clearly enough, hopefully someone can explain it better.
 

disciple_dan

NAWCC Member
Donor
Mar 10, 2016
1,619
163
63
64
Plant City
Country
Region
Without the bob on, look into the movement just under the suspension spring arm. Move the leader and crutch assembly back and forth to simulate the bob swinging. Can you see the escape wheel advancing? If not, you need to do what TJ says to center the verge with the bob. I couldn't hear a working tick-tock in the video. The suspension arm is adjusted very close to the verge on the left side. You may have to check the lock and drop also. Danny
 

HenryNox

Registered User
Aug 3, 2022
8
1
3
41
Country
I couldn't see the escape wheel with the movement inside the enclosure so I removed it.
The escape wheel is not advancing when the arm is swung back and forth.
If I put some slight pressure onto the escape wheel while moving the arm it advances one click at a time.
I then carefully released the main spring a few clicks at a time just to make sure it was wound up and it seems good.

Seems like something is off between the main spring and the escape wheel.

Here is a video showing what's going on with the escape wheel.
 

tracerjack

Registered User
Jun 6, 2016
2,559
548
113
Lodi, CA
Country
Region
The crutch still doesn’t look centered, but more importantly, “When was it last serviced?” Oil eventually dries into a gooey mess, preventing the wheels from turning freely. And mainsprings can’t provide power when the coils are stuck together with old oil. Are you planning to tear it down?
 
Last edited:

disciple_dan

NAWCC Member
Donor
Mar 10, 2016
1,619
163
63
64
Plant City
Country
Region
Yeah, you have no power getting to the escape wheel. Check for end shake. With it wound up, you should be able to tell which wheel the power ends at. You will have resistance when checking the end shake from the bottom to the top. If the resistance is not there, it could be a problem with the wheel below. Danny
 

Willie X

Registered User
Feb 9, 2008
17,145
2,999
113
Let all the springs down and remove the pallet arbor. Then put about 1/4 turn on the center winding arbor and see what happens.

Something is evidently completely stuck in the time train. Just prod the wheels and arbors around with a bamboo skewer until you figure out what's stuck. Could be a bent second wheel arbor.

Your movement is a Junghans.

Willie X
 

shutterbug

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Oct 19, 2005
48,935
2,694
113
North Carolina
Country
Region
I think someone either put a dead beat verge on a recoil, or switched the escape wheel. It's also possible that you are pushing the EW in the wrong direction when trying to get it to run. Try it the other direction first. I think the crutch is too tight either way. See if you can open it a little. Also, it looks out of beat. Force the crutch to your right when looking from the back and see if that helps. It will move if you give it a good nudge.
 

HenryNox

Registered User
Aug 3, 2022
8
1
3
41
Country
Let all the springs down and remove the pallet arbor. Then put about 1/4 turn on the center winding arbor and see what happens.

Something is evidently completely stuck in the time train. Just prod the wheels and arbors around with a bamboo skewer until you figure out what's stuck. Could be a bent second wheel arbor.

Your movement is a Junghans.

Willie X
That worked!
I unwound the three springs, removed the pallet arbor, gave the main spring a few clicks, and started poking the gears with a stick. The escape wheel eventually started to coast a bit in one direction but would stop quickly in the other so I kept spinning it in the right direction and soon the time train slowly came back to life and it started spinning on it's own.

Thank you Willie X and everyone that helped else that gave some good tips. I'm sure I will have more questions before this clock is fully functional again.

I also spoke to my dad yesterday and got some more history for this clock.
My great grandmother bought this around 1957 or 1958. It was in their house until she passed in the late 80's when my dad got the clock. It was in my dad's house from then until last week. It was working and running most of that time. It stopped running in my dad's house maybe around 5 years ago. As far as I know it was never professionally serviced. The most work that I know was done to this is my dad oiled it at some point with who knows what kind of oil.

I don't think I'm ready to actually do a complete teardown and cleanup of this, but I am going to try to use a sharp wooden stick to get as much gunk out from the gears then apply some fresh oil.

Thank you again, everyone on this forum is great.
 

HenryNox

Registered User
Aug 3, 2022
8
1
3
41
Country
Just wanted to post an updated video.
The clock is up and running now.
Thank you everyone.

 
  • Like
Reactions: Dave T

wow

NAWCC Member
Jun 24, 2008
6,581
1,048
113
77
Pineville, La. (central La.)
Country
Region
Congrats, Henry. Nice clock.
It is slightly out of beat. To fix that, push the crutch to the left slightly.When it gets tight, push it a tiny bit more and try it. The beats are not even but that should do it.
Also, a couple of hammers are double hitting. Bend them upward very slightly until they only strike the rods once.
 

HenryNox

Registered User
Aug 3, 2022
8
1
3
41
Country
Congrats, Henry. Nice clock.
It is slightly out of beat. To fix that, push the crutch to the left slightly.When it gets tight, push it a tiny bit more and try it. The beats are not even but that should do it.
Also, a couple of hammers are double hitting. Bend them upward very slightly until they only strike the rods once.
I definitely hear the double hammers making the chime sound a bit funny. I'll work on those.
The off beat I can hear too. Why do you say to move the crutch to the left? Is that the left when looking at the back of the clock?
I currently have some shims on the left side of the clock because the pendulum was a leaning a little to the left. (Left when facing the back of the clock.)
 

Willie X

Registered User
Feb 9, 2008
17,145
2,999
113
It's best not to run a clock like this for everyday use. Special occasions, maybe?

Reason: the accumulated debris that made your clock stop is still there. You only removed the external stuff and freed it up. Now the wear process will resume at an accelerated rate.

The only surfaces on the clock, that matter much, are the tiny cylinder shaped
surfaces at the inside of each pivot hole and the outside of each pivot. This amounts to an area of around 10 to 20 square mms at each hole and is invisible and unreachable until the clock is taken apart ... When apart these wear surfaces can easily be pegged, polished, or replaced, to bring the clock back to 'good running order'.

This is not what anyone likes to hear. I'm posting the info just 'so you know'. :)

Willie X
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jess19721

wow

NAWCC Member
Jun 24, 2008
6,581
1,048
113
77
Pineville, La. (central La.)
Country
Region
I definitely hear the double hammers making the chime sound a bit funny. I'll work on those.
The off beat I can hear too. Why do you say to move the crutch to the left? Is that the left when looking at the back of the clock?
I currently have some shims on the left side of the clock because the pendulum was a leaning a little to the left. (Left when facing the back of the clock.)
Remove the shims, put it on a level surface, and make a video of it again and we can tell you how to get in in beat.
 

HenryNox

Registered User
Aug 3, 2022
8
1
3
41
Country
It's best not to run a clock like this for everyday use. Special occasions, maybe?

Reason: the accumulated debris that made your clock stop is still there. You only removed the external stuff and freed it up. Now the wear process will resume at an accelerated rate.

The only surfaces on the clock, that matter much, are the tiny cylinder shaped
surfaces at the inside of each pivot hole and the outside of each pivot. This amounts to an area of around 10 to 20 square mms at each hole and is invisible and unreachable until the clock is taken apart ... When apart these wear surfaces can easily be pegged, polished, or replaced, to bring the clock back to 'good running order'.

This is not what anyone likes to hear. I'm posting the info just 'so you know'. :)

Willie X
Since I do want to have this clock running in my living room, it sounds like I'll need to take apart the movement and clean out all the pivot points.
The gear teeth also have some black buildup on them. Probably a good time to clean that off as well.
When I first started this, looking at all the gears had me apprehensive about having to disassemble the movement, but now that I have spent some time working on it my brain can fathom a full teardown. I'll certainly be recording, photographing, and labeling everything as I go.

I imagine that the adjustments to get the timing right should wait until after this is complete..

Anyone recommend any good videos or other resources to check out before attempting a full teardown of the movement?
 

Willie X

Registered User
Feb 9, 2008
17,145
2,999
113
This is not a good beginner project.

I would recommend that you set this one on the shelf, until you are confident working with one and two train movements. After overhauling a few dozen simpler clocks, your chimer could be your 'step up' into the wonderful world of chiming clocks. :oops:

Also, unless you plan on doing a good bit of clock repair, it might be best to farm this job (on the chimer) out to a pro for economic reasons and no one wants to see a nice clock get screw up! :)

Willie X
 
Know Your NAWCC Forums Rules!
RULES & GUIDELINES

Find member

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
176,376
Messages
1,543,760
Members
53,269
Latest member
stems
Encyclopedia Pages
1,064
Total wiki contributions
3,031
Last update
-