Herschede/Elite 11 tube Hall clock restoration thread

Discussion in 'Your Newest Clock Acquisition' started by brian fisher, Sep 25, 2017.

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  1. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    For whatever reason, no one seems to document their work on this forum. I would love to see the restoration progress of some of the amazing clocks all you members have out there. As a result, with this thread, I hope to start a new trend here as well as keep a record of what has been done to this clock.

    The back story:

    Back in February, I was in Orlando perusing craigslist in my hotel room when i happened upon this clock. doing some research, i saw that the owner had been trying to sell it for over 2 years. I gave the seller a call and agreed to rent a car and make the 2 hour drive down to Stewart, Florida to have a look at it the next day.

    N4t9vq.jpg

    K6COkF.jpg

    Here she is in all her glory. Sitting in the seller's garage. The clock is complete, suffering from years of simple neglect. In this condition it needs a full restoration. We didn't agree on a price on this date and I made the drive back to Orlando empty handed. I did agree to think about it and I kept in touch with the owner for the next couple months. I did tons of research, looked at what seemed like hundreds of other clocks. I kept coming back to this one. I made friends with a few Herschede experts, collected lots of advice. In spite of my wife's misgivings, I contacted the seller in June to finally negotiate a deal. I ended up paying more than I wanted and the seller(who is an awesome guy, by the way) took less than he wanted. I promptly sent him a deposit and made plans to rent a car-this time from Miami. i was planning to be there the next month for work.

    Another 2 hours driving, about 5 hours packing up the clock for shipping, and the 2 hour drive back to Miami made for a long day to be sure. here are the results of my labor.

    Cabinet shown here emptied of all mechanical parts.
    fjHDAr.jpg

    Everything all packed up and ready for the shipper to come load on his truck
    6yQxdK.jpg

    It took about 3 weeks to find the right insured shipper that was willing to do the job at a price i could live with. For your future reference, i used 2 methods to make the transport happen. 1st, i called around to all the antique furniture shops and asked for leads. second, i used the web site Uship. i made sure to only choose an individual with his own truck and not a big company with some random driver that doesn't give a crap. both methods produced results but i ended up using a guy that found my ad on Uship. Miami to Houston cost around 400.00 with insurance. the clock arrived perfectly with no damage.

    here is a pic of the cabinet once it arrived at my home and i have started to disassemble it.

    KfiUQY.jpg

    more to come......
     
  2. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    #2 brian fisher, Sep 25, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
    Moderator: do you know why a couple of the photos i posted are showing an "X"? when i attempt to edit my thread, they display properly.

    please help me fix this? is it possible that i exceeded the allowable band width?

    I have tons of pics i plan to post. this issue is going to vex the heck out of me.
     
  3. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    #3 brian fisher, Sep 25, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
    this entry is just to test posting photos at different sizes to see if that fixes my pic posting issues.

    wRO0wc.jpg

    wRO0wc.jpg

    wRO0wc.jpg

    good golly! this new software is driving me bonkers! if i have to post all my pics at 320x240, you will all need a microscope to see what i am talking about. shifty.gif
     
  4. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    we're working on it.... thx for your patience
     
  5. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    It seems to me the problem/ limiting factor is the horizontal threshold set for the picture limit?

    The vertical pics I posted displayed fine in larger sizes. The horizontals won't seem to display unless the resolution is 320x240 or below. If you have a chance, please shoot me a pm when it starts working again. I'll delay my thread until then.
     
  6. chimeclockfan

    chimeclockfan Registered User
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    I've studied Jacques clocks for a while now and am always eager to see the work of others. My own work seems to vanish before I can whip out the camera in time... :p

    Herschede did use Jacques' movements for a short period of time right before undertaking domestic movement production. The examples I've seen documented used the 5, 9, and 13 (8 pipes x 5 tubes) 'Elite' tubular bell movements. As with the majority of Jacques' hall clock movements, they were manufactured by Mathias Bäuerle in St. Georgen, Germany. Because of the short period between shifting away from supplied movements and the introduction of domestic production, Herschede clocks with Jacques movements are not often found.

    I do not believe Herschede ever utilized the 11 tube movement in any of their clocks so I am doubtful this clock is a Herschede-related product. Prior to the liquidation of Bawo & Dotter (the prestigious importer Jacques worked for) and Jacques' subsequent transfer to Geo. Borgfeldt & Company, hall clock movements were usually separated into two grades: 'Elite' and 'Monastery'. Quite simply, the 'Elites' were higher-end and less prone to trouble while the lower-cost 'Monastery' were cheaper to make and subsequently cost less.

    When Jacques started up again with Borgfeldt, all hall clock movements now carried a cursive 'Jacques' script regardless of movement grade. If you can identify which mark is on your clock we can have a better idea when it was made.

    You have a very nice clock, and from a maker that was very skillful and well renowned in his time.
     
  7. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    #7 brian fisher, Oct 1, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2017
    thank you so much for responding to my thread. man....i have so many photos that i want to share with all of you. i'm so frustrated by the fact that they don't work. i'm going to post a couple pix in super annoyingly low res. please feel free to pull out your microscope.

    here is a couple photos of the stampings on the cabinet. i have been told by more than one herschede expert that these marks are unquestionably herschede. i could be wrong tho.....

    BwgP1D.jpg

    this mark supposedly means this was the 27th clock of this particular style. the case has about 10 various places that have the number "27" stamped in.
    KE8rPj.jpg

    vz7q05.jpg

    as to the movement, it does indeed have the cursive "Jacques" mark on the back of the rear plate. i had a pic of this on my cell phone but unfortunately it got wet while i was helping with rescues during hurricane Harvey. the metal parts are still packed up in the box seen in one of the photos above. i will be cracking it open very soon as the mahogany cabinet is almost finished. i'll post more pics once i open it up.

    what i do have is a pic of the right sub dial that i tried to post above. unfortunately it didn't work so well. i am going to try installing it here again in "super pint size".

    K6COkF.jpg

    also, i don't have a photo at the moment because of the reasons i mentioned above, but the face has the "magnolia" insignia indicative of "elite".

    here is an auction link to a very similar clock to the one i am restoring. the columns are fluted in this case and the base is a little different than mine. i can say from experience that the tubes in this clock are certainly installed in the wrong order.

    Charles Jacques Mahogany 11 Tube Grandfather - Price Estimate: $1000 - $1500

    also, about 5 or 6 months ago, there was an out of business clock shop in Atlanta, GA selling an elite movement herschede hall clock on craigslist. i couldn't tell for sure which movement because there were no pictures of the tubes and the face photo was low res. i could see for sure it had the magnolia and i could also see the top left sub dial had more than three tunes. it was either this 11 tube movement or a 13 tube. the lady i talked to on the phone said this clock and a morbier were sold for 1500 bucks. i wish i would have copied the photos.

    just one more example: on this web page, you can scroll down about 11 or 12 clocks. here is another jacques 11 tube. i have actually been to portland, oregon and seen this clock with my own eyes. i can say that this one is probably a couple years older than mine. the plates of this movement are perhaps 30% larger than the plates in my clock.

    herschede for sale herschede grandfather clock herschede clock repair colonial clock restoration clock shop


    ok, i am going to "post reply" now. lets see how my photos did.
     
  8. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    just tonight, i was doing a clock search and i came across this:

    QfCmau.jpg

    this clock is listed at an estate sale in syracuse new york. the movement is obviously a much less expensive 5 tube, but the cabinet is very much the same except for the detail at the top of the arch. the pics aren't very good, but the seller states the clock is indeed herschede. i sent them an email hoping they will take photos of the stampings in order to make a comparison.

    Estate Sale - Signal Hill Fayetteville - Sun 10/1
     
  9. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    #9 brian fisher, Oct 4, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2017
    i cracked open my shipping box today. i wanted to share a few more microscopic photographs with you all. if you wish to click on the pics, it will take you directly to my imageshack account where you can view them in larger sizes.

    hopefully, its apparent by my postings above that i've done lots of research on my clock. i have to say that after going through my parts and taking inventory, i feel like i am left with more questions than answers. i was originally thinking that this clock was probably built between 1915 and 1920. i suppose that i am now starting to believe the clock was built earlier than this. perhaps before 1910? the movement and the face bear the mark of Baden, Germany. i guess i don't know the era elite movements were built in this city. my tubes have a patent date of Dec 4, 1900.

    xdhX70.jpg

    Nfo4sG.jpg

    it irritates the heck out of me that someone scratched up the back plate.

    anyway, here is a closeup of the stampings:

    FhjLcz.jpg

    apparently, i deleted the photo, but "Baden" is also stamped on the back along with a serial number. i would be happy to provide this if anyone needs.

    here are some photos of the face;

    9ItchH.jpg

    pHGTI3.jpg

    KE2voc.jpg


    the moon dial is in pretty darn good shape. there are a couple small places where the paint has flaked off. i'll do some research and figure out how to restore it properly.
    JS1d4c.jpg

    i'm really excited by the fact that the face is held together by screws instead of rivets. this should make it a LOT easier to restore. this is a pic of the back of the face.

    tWDrHo.jpg

    here is a picture of the end of one of my tubes.

    5auzZW.jpg

    so....i welcome any thoughts. what year do all of you think this clock was built?

    thank you for viewing.... JS1d4c.jpg
     
  10. chimeclockfan

    chimeclockfan Registered User
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    Your clock was made by Charles Jacques (Geo. Borgfeldt & Co.) anywhere between the 1915-1933 time frame. Production of Jacques clocks continued for a while under Borgfeldt after Charles Jacques died in 1920. Very little was seriously changed to the Jacques brand during the 1920-1933 period so there is no obvious difference between Borgfeldt's Jacques clocks made between 1915-1920 and those from later on. R. H. Mayland's bell manufacturing company, which made the tubular bells, was in business until World War 2 began.

    The case style was used by just about every hall clock manufacturer during the 1920s. It largely came up as a response to the much more ornate (some may say overdone) cases from the 1900s which were no longer so desirable. These simpler, more contemporary cases with Doric or Gothic influence were also adapted by Jacques for smaller homes, known as bungalow clocks. Bungalow clocks stood around 6 feet and a few inches as opposed to their larger 'hall' counterparts which exceeded 7 feet on average.
     
  11. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    picture test

    w57Nhr.jpg

    w57Nhr.jpg


    hmmmm....seems like the photo issue is somewhat fixed. no matter what size pic you post, it automatically self adjusts to a small size. this is kind of a shame. i suppose it is set up this way to minimize server space....?
     
  12. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    #12 brian fisher, Oct 31, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2017
    well, i guess the photo issue is "fixed" as much as its going to be. i have to say that i am incredibly disappointed with how small they show up once they are posted, but i guess its probably not going to get any better. its a rainy day here in houston, so i suppose it is time that i get on with my thread.

    I started with the cabinet. for the most part it came complete and in pretty good shape. it did have a few issues that needed correction.

    1) the mahogany base molding at the bottom of the cabinet was in unsalvageable condition. it appeared that 100 years of being run into with the vacuum cleaner had taken its toll.

    2) the bottom panel of the clock was originally made from pine. it had done a poor job of standing up to the test of time. it was warped, broken into 3 pieces, and at some point, the pendulum had been dropped on it piercing a good sized dent into the wood.

    3) some of the pieces of wood in the arch area were loose. the clock came from florida and it seems the humidity had taken a bit of a toll on the original hide glue in a couple areas.

    4) the shellac finish was really dirty and in some places had a good deal of "alligatoring". the crazed finish didn't bother me too much, but i wanted to make the finish look a bit.....less distressed.

    so....i started out by removing all the glass and every piece from the cabinet that would unscrew.

    wRO0wc.jpg

    all of the hardware and screws were bagged and tagged.

    the first order of business was to clean all the dirt, dust, nicotine, smegma, etc that had built up on the wood over the last century. i tried about 4 or 5 commercial furniture cleaners with very limited success. after a search of the internet, i found a thread here where someone suggested GoJo hand cleaner. i watched a youtube tutorial and decided to give it a try. HOOOOOOLEEEE CRAAAAP!!!!!!!!! this stuff is a god send!!!!!!! i don't believe there is anything on the market that works better!!!! just amazing!!!! whoever discovered this, please speak up. i am planning to write you into my will.

    X97hup.jpg

    here is a pic of the beginning of the first application.

    mgGEKJ.jpg

    every bit of the cabinet was cleaned very thoroughly 4+ times. this pic is what the paper towels looked like after wiping off the goo. the left 2 were after the 1st application the one on the far right was after the 4th.

    vukRB4.jpg

    the "cleaned" door on the left illustrates the difference between GoJo and the one on the right which has not been touched. did i say that this stuff is amazing? well, just so you know.....its AMAZING!!!!!!! i will never use anything else.

    358uaf.jpg

    i posted this photo to illustrate the difference between what the original factory finish would have been(inside of movement door on the right) and the present condition of the finish on the left. now....i don't have any intention of making the clock look like it was when it was new, but i do wan't to see if i can find a way to bring back the rich mahogany finish somewhat. we will get to more on this in the future.

    1DkTF0.jpg

    this is one more picture to further illustrate the effects of sunlight on shellac finished wood over the corse of time. i think i can improve on this.

    after cleaning all the wooden pieces, i next turned my attention to the bottom of the cabinet.

    sFGK0a.jpg

    i used my Milwaukee heat gun to warm up the wood trim at the bottom of the clock and was thus able to easily remove the base molding from the cabinet. the bun feet were pried off and the pine floor came out easily as well. you can see the condition of these pieces in the photo above. they were deemed unsalvageable.

    v4NeHS.jpg

    here are the base trim blanks i made up with some extra mahogany i had laying around. while we are on the subject of wood work, the original floor in this clock was-as i mentioned earlier-made from pine. this material didn't stand up well to the test of time. its impossible to say how many times this clock has been moved during its lifetime, but it is safe to say it was one too many. since i have about 80 board feet of 4/4 honduran mahogany laying around, i decided that it would be a good idea to upgrade to that material since it is much stronger than the original.

    QOJ9gH.jpg

    this is a photo of the glue up for the bottom panel. i deliberately made this piece about an inch too large in all directions so that once it was glued together, i could cut it to fit perfectly. i elected to use dowels in the joinery instead of biscuits because that is more likely how the clock would have been manufactured during its era. this project set me back a few weeks because my thickness planer decided to chew up its own drive gears. unfortunately, since it was around 20 years old, the parts i needed were no longer available. i spent about a month perusing the internet until i found a tool repair guy that had a spare used set in one of his parts machines. i guess thats how it goes sometimes.

    NMV163.jpg

    finished piece sanded up and ready to be installed.
     
  13. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    AcBr44.jpg

    this is the disemboweled cabinet just before i started to reassemble everything.

    TRdsPk.jpg

    probably an unnecessary step, but i tried to clean the old hide glue off a bit before reapplying new.

    C2hIXt.jpg

    mahogany base trim installed and stained. i used minwax walnut for the pigment. it was the darkest color offered except for ebony. i deemed that would be too dark. i did have to use about 4 coats of stain to achieve a color that matched the rest of the case.

    lUMiNq.jpg

    new and improved bottom panel installed.

    i then turned my attention to the bun feet. the finish was in really bad shape. i actually used a commercial paint stripper to clean these up.

    sfCQNG.jpg

    Tp7B18.jpg

    while i was working on them, i decided that the clock needed a small improvement in this department. i pried out the old metal pieces and replaced them with adjustable feet. this way i won't have to shim the clock when i set it up.

    xwgGda.jpg

    these are the feet after they were stripped. you can see a bit of rounding on the edges. likely from some dingleberry dragging the clock across cement at some point in it lifetime. i decided that since the were original, i would salvage them instead of making new ones. i sanded them up the best i could and re stained them to match.

    wtfJ7q.jpg

    because i consider myself to be a purist to the extent possible, i reused the original nails. here they are ready to be reinstalled.

    1YO2JE.jpg

    glued back on the cabinet before final staining of the bottom panel. i decided to stain this last because i didn't want any stain interfering with the glue joint between the feet and the bottom.

    more to come.....
     
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  14. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    WW9mBm.jpg

    this pic should have been included above, but since it been more than an hour, i don't have the ability to go back and re edit my last entry. this is the glue up of the base molding at the bottom of the cabinet.

    moving on....the next order of business for me was to address the loose wooden parts from the underside of the arch.

    hVSN5y.jpg

    reY1nD.jpg

    the small piece on the left side was completely loose. the arched laminated part and the one on the right side were still glued in but they has some movement, kind of like a loose tooth. i didn't want to use the heat gun in this area because i was concerned about damaging the finish. it took a little bit of slowly working the parts back and forth until they were free from the cabinet.

    q7bBRl.jpg

    i cleaned up the glue edges and simply re-adhired the parts back in their original locations.

    4dkqo4.jpg

    WHDJNt.jpg

    somewhere in this hall clock's history, it sat in a location where it acquired a good deal of paint spatter/overspray. mostly this was confined to the top of the cabinet and the back. i found the best way to get rid of it without damaging the finish was to wet the surface with GoJo and use a homemade mahogany scraper to rub it off.

    for the top and back panels, they really weren't stained very well to begin with, so i felt the best method was to sand them down with fine grit and refinish them.

    kWoikx.jpg

    cWTO0O.jpg

    this is the inside of the back panel. i don't know how well it shows up in this photo, but it is very obvious that this clock was at one time moved with the tubes still hanging on the rack. there are about 11 horizontal arcs scratched into the finish. abuse like this just drives me crazy.

    vz7q05.jpg

    ikdAsZ.jpg

    this is apparently a factory knot/wood imperfection repair.
     
  15. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    AU4qDE.jpg

    maybe this also isn't a great pic, but here is the rear panel after being re stained. from the factory, there was a very light coat of shellac on this panel. to replicate this, i purchased a few cans of shellac in a spray can from the local home center. i highly recommend the spray. the secret is to apply several light coats until you achieve the build up you are looking for. then its just a matter of flashing it off with 0000 steel wool and paste wax.

    qSChaZ.jpg

    inside of the top panel. above i posted a pic of the outside of the top piece. it is the pic with all the white paint spatter on it.

    HVhQlc.jpg

    sanded down.....

    43bZEm.jpg

    re-stained. i don't have a picture of either of these pieces with the clear coat, but they look better then they did from the factory.

    the last order of business in regard to actual wood work was the face bezel.

    rLHp2r.jpg

    the glue joints in all four corners were loose, so i took it all apart, cleaned the joints, and re adhered it back together. there were a lot of scratches in the wood from various repairmen over the years taking the screws off and on to get to the movement.

    cAtqAv.jpg

    there were also a couple of places where the finish was downright missing. being the case, i built up the shellac finish with the spray i mentioned above.

    btw.....note to self.....the maximum number of images that you can post in one entry is 10.
     
  16. chimeclockfan

    chimeclockfan Registered User
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    Fantastic work. The pine floor board would have been a typical way for the factory to save on valuable Mahogany wood that would have been used for the rest of the case. Using Mahogany or any other durable wood for the new board is perfectly acceptable.

    I look forward to seeing the finished clock.
     
  17. randall977

    randall977 Registered User

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    Beautiful top quality clock - really nice restoration work - thanks for posting the photos and descriptions.
     
  18. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    #18 brian fisher, Nov 2, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2017
    thank you gentlemen for your kind comments. please keep them coming.

    dang! i tried to post another entry, but it seems photos are not working again. praying for the option to post bigger pictures!!!!!!!

    when this is fixed, i will post pix of my cabinet's finish restoration as well as how i re aligned the door to make it fit better.

    i have started polishing my tubes. i've taken the face apart. the pendulum is disassembled and i have started polishing the rods.

    my biggest task on the horizon is that i am going to need to replace a few bushings in the movement once i take it apart. the problem here is that i do not own a bushing tool....is there anyone local that might be willing to sell a setup at a reasonable price or perhaps willing to rent one?
     
  19. woodlawndon

    woodlawndon Registered User
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    I love threads like this whether it be clocks, cars or houses. Your work is superb and inspires me to do the best I can, even if it's not as good. Keep posting your progress.
    Don
     
  20. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    picture test

    tiFI1x.jpg
     
  21. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    ok. seems to be working again.

    under the "how to" section of this forum, there is a shellac tutorial in the clock case restoration and repair area. if you have a cabinet that needs work, i would highly recommend reading through it once or twice. there is a ton of fantastic and useful information in there.

    tiFI1x.jpg

    i started out by lightly sanding my cabinet with 400 and 600 grit wet/dry and i used mineral oil as the lubricant as was suggested in the thread mentioned above.

    RMgpAM.jpg

    SwDTnx.jpg

    turns out the 400 is probably the best choice. this was followed up with 4 ought steel wool and paste wax. sanding down the cabinet in this manner was a lot of work. i believe i have about 7 or 8 hours invested in this task. plenty of sore fingers too.

    kunTlG.jpg

    this is one of the columns after the process. you can see that it isn't mirror shiny, but i am really happy with how much more even the finish is and how much more depth.

    1DkTF0.jpg
    nACVQs.jpg

    not a very good photo, but compared to the one above, you can see its more even than before and every part has a decent amount of shine.

    bFbX24.jpg

    i soaked all the brass in cleaning solution and then polished every part on my small polishing wheel. for your future reference, the door hinges are two pieces as you can see. they were sanded or ground as a proprietary pair. i.e.: be sure that if you take them off to re match the pairs together or they won't fit properly. ask me how i know this.

    rLCNrU.jpg

    most of the case screws were kind of rusty and not looking so nice. a few of them were a bit buggered up by repairmen using the wrong size screwdriver on them i chucked every screw in my drill press and turned them over a piece of sandpaper.

    RSowhD.jpg

    comparison between a few screws that were faced off and the original.

    Hp6ZEH.jpg

    some of these were painted semi gloss black as they were originally, some were blued with gun bluing, and the ones that were just bare metal were sprayed with a light coat of polyurethane.
     
  22. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    the front door didn't fit correctly at the top. i tried to level the cabinet but it didn't help. i played around with the alignment by removing the top hinge and watching closely as the door opened and closed. it turns out the hinge was placed too far inward and the lip of the door was binding on the cabinet. the only solution was to move the hinge.

    i needed to find an efficient method of plugging the holes.

    439EGe.jpg
    i cut a stick of mahogany to fit inside my pencil sharpener.

    sKwzJc.jpg

    the perfect filler wedge in my opinion.

    xa6hhI.jpg

    i dipped the tip in wood glue, tapped it into the hole with a small hammer, and finally cut it off flush.

    the door fits perfectly now.

    83kNlM.jpg

    the tube rack was wire brushed to knock off the old paint. i then primed and painted these parts with semi gloss black.

    this is all the pics i have for today. more to come
     
  23. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    #23 brian fisher, Nov 14, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
    time for a little update.

    i'm in the process of polishing my tubes. its tedious work. i usually do one or two a day and then go on to something else.

    2uqW80.jpg

    1uFpN3.jpg

    this photo shows them hanging in the rack. i have 6 of them finished with the five on the right to go. i have been using nitrile gloves so i don't get finger prints on them once they are polished. i then follow up with a light coat of paste wax. the strings are all different heights. when i am done with this task, i am going to tie on new strings to lift the tubes up to their proper positions.

    idzxIl.jpg

    i have the pendulum disassembled. i separated the parts so it would go back together the way it came apart.

    zs2FE7.jpg

    for some reason the rods were kind of corroded. much more so than i would have expected considering the way the rest of the clock looked. they alternate between steel and brass. you can see that the rods on the left side of the pic have not been touched yet. the ones on the right were hit with a scotch brite pad. the brass rods have been polished on the wheel but i don't have a pic yet. i didn't have the proper supplies to polish steel, so i had to go buy a different buffing wheel and compound. i'll post an update when i get to it.

    LuHHHr.jpg

    lastly, i have the face disassembled. i was really happy that it was put together with screws. the brass parts will go into cleaning solution before polish. the silvered parts will be re-silvered. the silvering solution just arrived in the mail last week. i still have not taken apart the chapter ring and numbers. i will wait and do that last. i don't know if the fasteners were drilled in by hand or machine so i want to be sure they stay in the right order.

    9loh7p.jpg

    the spandrel and other engraved pieces are all marked with an "s" and an "h" on the back side. i wonder what that signifies?

    MMtR2c.jpg

    the quality of workmanship on this clock is truly amazing. i absolutely love the detail work engraved into the face. they sure don't make 'em like that anymore. i feel honored to be the person doing the conservation on this piece.

    49gMlD.jpg

    just so i have it here in this thread, this is the stamping on the inside of the door.
     
  24. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    #24 brian fisher, Dec 2, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2017
    i had the opportunity to spend a few hours with my clock today. i thought i would share a few pictures.

    oaDUWA.jpg
    i separated the numbers from the chapter ring. i guess this photo illustrates the damaging effect of touching the dial with bare fingers.

    V1FmNO.jpg

    these are all the pieces that need silvering

    P4XscE.jpg

    i did a lot of wet sanding today. 600 grit paper did the trick.

    u2QRwm.jpg

    i've never done silvering before. initially, i didn't think it was working very well but you just have to keep rubbing it on. eventually the powder begins to do its job.


    after finishing up the silvering, i started in on the dial plate. it was a bit tarnished on the front but the back was really bad.
    livnLw.jpg
    front side

    4AEWdd.jpg
    back side. even though this side doesn't show and the factory left it raw, i can't pass up the opportunity to make i look better than this.

    wNv1uf.jpg
    here is the front side after a little polishing

    t8yDA7.jpg
    this is the back after some clean up. much better than it was. probably better than it left the factory.

    vL7nhW.jpg

    this shot is the face plate after polish with the silvered parts sitting on top in order to show contrast. i am really happy with how well it is all turning out.

    i need to replace the gold plating on the numbers and engraved parts-spandrel, etc... i called a local plating shop with a good reputation. they quoted me $425.00 for the work i just mentioned. that seems like a crazy waste of resources at that price if you ask me. a friend suggested a place called the Dial House in Dallas, GA. i called and left a message. we will see what they quote. i have started looking into purchasing the supplies and doing it myself. god bless youtube.

    the sub-dial ring for the melodies has lost some of its black wax. i didn't finish it up because i am going to need a stick of wax to fill the engravings in that part. at least its a small area and won't take too long to repair.
     
  25. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    i spent a good bit of time on the pendulum as well.

    381f2w.jpg

    nHR3mM.jpg
    here are a couple photos i took in order to help me reassemble the parts back into the proper order. they also illustrate how corroded the metal parts were. i am pretty sure that this pendulum was sitting out in someone's carport at one time. there is no other areas on the clock that looks like this.

    WLsvvn.jpg

    more time spent at the polishing wheel

    Xv4JBL.jpg

    mostly assembled. i bet i have 4 hours work just in the pendulum alone. i started polishing the bob but i don't have photos of it. i guess that is something to be posted in the next update.
     
  26. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    How goes the restoration Brian? Looks great so far....
     
  27. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    #27 brian fisher, Dec 20, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2017
    thank you jim. i spent 3 or 4 hours working on it this weekend. i'll post a mini update when i get time. i'm held up a bit on the face while i try to figure out what i am going to do about gold plating for the spandral and other engraved pieces. i've been researching the products to just do it myself as i mentioned above. tubes are all polished. i had 4 left, so i decided to power through the tedium of standing in front of the buffer. i'm going to start disassembling the movement as soon as i clear enough space on my bench to lay the parts out in a methodical manner.

    this clock makes me understand why all you guys love clocks so much. its so enjoyable to work on it, then look back at what was accomplished.
     
  28. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    my order of clock supplies arrived from timesaver's a few days ago. in there was a stick of dial wax that i have been waiting on to finish up my silvering. to be accurate, i had already silvered the chime subdial but once i was finished, it was apparent my results were flawed.

    dOzsTC.jpg

    there were no other waxing issues with the rest of the face. i don't know what was the problem here, but i simply knew that i wasn't going to put it back together looking splotchy as this photo shows. i'd never done waxing before, so after watching a video on youtube, i figured i would give it a try. i used a pair of brass nuts to hold the dial off the steel jaws of my vice. you should have seen me try to line everything up and tighten the vice at the same time. it was challenging. i ended up kicking off a shoe and using my foot to tighten the screw while holding the pieces in place.

    i didn't have a mini butane torch as shown in the youtube demonstration. i only have an acetylene rig and a hand held Mapp glass torch. i figured the acetylene rig was overkill by a factor of about 20 and the Mapp by about a factor of 5. anyway, i chose to use the mapp and i have to say the part was hot enough in about 3 seconds. i probably overheated the dial a bit for the job at hand. i didn't discolor the metal in any way, so i'm sure there was no damage done.

    fNlZGz.jpg

    the good news is that i felt like the wax had good penetration. i probably applied 3x more than needed though.

    IQrRWN.jpg

    i used 600 grit to sand the part back down to base metal. as long as the paper is kept wet, the dial wax won't clog up the paper.

    sVWukE.jpg

    sanding complete. i had to re-silver the emblem shield too. the reason why is that i silvered the back side when i did it the first time. for some reason, the front had some fairly deep scratches. i had to spend a few minutes sanding them out with 400 before finishing the part up with 600 grit.

    bD1h2E.jpg

    i'm really pleased with how everything has turned out.

    ibxKRI.jpg

    as i mentioned above, i finally finished polishing the last 4 tubes. i am grateful that i don't have a career where i stand in front of a buffer for 8 hours a day. i've definitely had worse jobs in my lifetime, but 30 years of this would be like purgatory at best.
     
  29. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    moving on....i started disassembly of my movement tonight. i removed the anchor and crutch, the chime roll assembly, and i also took all the levers off the front.

    the more i look at the work previous technicians have done to this movement, the more i disapprove. i am going to be re-facing and re-bluing a lot of screws-probably all of them. some of the adjustments seem pretty suspect to me also. so far, i am missing 4 original screws that i need to figure out how to replace. most of the bushings feel pretty good except for the winding arbors. those will all need to be redone. perhaps others as well. i guess i will know more once the plates are separated and everything is cleaned and checked for clearance.

    here are a few pics i took of the process. i took a lot of closeups thinking it would help with re-assembly. i figured i might as well post them here in case someone else needs guidance on a Jacques movement in the future.

    Bwer0v.jpg

    this post is bent a little bit

    OQyMRs.jpg

    4kTiAr.jpg

    2BOLmP.jpg

    nbfGNG.jpg

    sdInft.jpg

    PIVK4c.jpg

    gDTylV.jpg

    missing pin...well, actually, it was so mangled up i was embarrassed to shoot a photo of it

    SNgGi1.jpg

    tvQMjF.jpg
     
  30. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    R6kwvq.jpg

    partially disassembled


    these are for spring orientation
    phXFmO.jpg
    mnc1sF.jpg
    tWi18V.jpg
    8YwrA8.jpg

    2mHtT8.jpg

    sZiSUM.jpg

    G6mvDc.jpg

    i know this one looks disorganized, but its really not.

    anyway, thats all for today......
     
  31. Jeff Salmon

    Jeff Salmon Registered User
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    451bccd3_485850.jpg Here is a picture of a grandfather clock dial that I restored many years ago. The fretwork is all hand pierced and engraved. I had them re-plated and I just polished and lacquered the numerals. Notice the treatment of the backplate: I wanted the fretwork to really stand out so I made the backplate a matte gun-metal grey. The movement is unsigned but it appears to be an Elite and fit into a case similar to yours but was made by Grand Rapids Clock and Mantle Co. 7d1a2a65_571672.jpg 74151d51_565011.jpg
     
  32. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    #32 brian fisher, Dec 27, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2017
    that looks like really nice work jeff. i have to say that since i acquired the hall clock in this thread, i have taken a lot of notice of antique tubular style clocks. i study every one that i can lay my eyes on. i've never seen a movement like yours. it is lovely.

    speaking of movements, i disassembled mine today, cleaned the parts and polished the pivots. i felt like it was a good day and i accomplished a lot. this is probably nothing new to most of you, but its only the second 3 train movement that i have had apart.

    vMnIAy.jpg

    zDUrb1.jpg

    wMwwRp.jpg

    i tried to lay the parts out in a methodical manner. i never bother being careful with 2 train clocks. they just come apart and everything goes in the cleaning solution. in this case, there are a lot of gears and some are pretty similar across different trains. i cleaned up one train at a time. when i was finished it, i would lay it back out on my foam board, move on to the next and so on until everything had been through the solution twice.

    wJNaFS.jpg

    i polished every pivot. hopefully you can tell in this photo that the one on the left is shinier than its counterpart.

    i put everything back together with the exception of the winding drums. i already know they need to be rebushed. i wanted to see if the smaller gears spin freely without the big cumbersome parts.

    ce4xyb.jpg

    ZhHbVE.jpg

    9uyCTD.jpg

    tomorrow, if the weather is nice, i will probably the rake leaves out of our yard. otherwise, i plan to clean up the pin barrel, hammer pulls and associated parts
     
  33. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    #33 brian fisher, Dec 29, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2017
    the weather has been cold and rainy so i spent some time on the pin barrel assembly. i did get a lot accomplished on this clock but my yard is still full of leaves that need some serious attention. nothing here was in horrible shape, but i definitely wanted to clean it up to match the rest of my work.

    9oQnWx.jpg

    ohnH3N.jpg

    all of the hammer pulls are (or at least) seem to be identical. oddly they are numbered. still scratching my head trying to figure out why.

    iEyYJy.jpg

    these are the parts cleaned up. i didn't shoot a pic of this reassembled but is all back together and tucked away in a labeled zip loc waiting to be re installed.

    i turned my attention to the actuating levers on the front of the movement.

    a6TXUZ.jpg

    they were pretty oxidized. a little bit of surface rust. i wanted to make them look better than this. i alternated between 600 grit sandpaper and a scotch brite pad. between the two, i feel like the combination left a nice brushed satin finish on these parts pretty accurate to the way they would have come from the factory.

    BN6dl7.jpg

    the lower one has been polished and the upper is as it came with 100 years of patina. while i was in there, i polished every pivot post. there are so many of them and they are all different sizes, i decided the best course of action was to keep them paired up with the associated levers so nothing would get out of order.

    LQki74.jpg

    apparently they make pipe cleaners in "soft" and "firm". who knew? these are the firm version and i highly recommend them over the soft ones. they do a much better job of rodding out small holes in plates and other random areas.

    P9bkvQ.jpg

    all of the levers looking shiny and hopefully like they came from the factory.

    JZXolM.jpg

    i refaced almost every screw on the movement. they will get re-blued just before i re-asemble the movement for the final time. hey! lookey here!.... there's actually one screw on the entire movement that wasn't messed up by some previous technician using the wrong tools. i guess my faith in humanity has been restored. lol.

    IUzCIp.jpg

    the lyre needed some repair before i could polish and install it on the pendulum. one of the holding sleeves was broken off. it was an easy matter to re-solder.

    ICat58.jpg

    this is a pic of it reattached.

    mgx6NT.jpg

    i have the pendulum finished but in this particular photo, the bob still need more polish. i have since completed the task, but i don't have a final photo. i'll post something better in the next update.

    ItIHp1.jpg

    qfNMG5.jpg

    i do have one more item in the wood working department that will need to be taken care of but was previously missed. to be fair, when i was working on my cabinet, the seat board was still packed up with the movement. it looks pretty ugly in this pic just like a lot of other parts did before i started restoring this clock. these photos were taken for several reasons. first. someone scratched this sequence of numbers on the top beside where the movement resides. i have no idea what they signify, but i wanted a record of it for future reference. second. there was a paper label attached to the top right side with two brads. it is now missing but at least it gives me something to look for as i continue my research of jacques clocks in the future.

    i'm getting close to the end. i can see the light at the end of the tunnel!
     
  34. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    brian -

    i'm being as patient as i can, but when are you going to start on my 5-tube winterhalder?

    bruce
     
  35. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Maybe after he rakes the leaves in his yard:whistle:
     
  36. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    lol!

    pics?
     
  37. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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  38. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    #38 brian fisher, Dec 31, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
    thats a good looking clock. if you can overcome the 1900 mile logistical issue, i would restore it for you.

    i REALLY like round face hall clocks. i have been looking for a nine tube waltham (or similar round face) to restore down the road. you know....because 5 gf clocks just aren't enough

    this is my next intended project.

    Cr0Gqn.jpg

    its going to need a lot of wood work and veneer repair. i'll probably make a build thread on this one too.

    I do have to say that the jacques in this thread has been a nice challenge to my abilities. there are a lot of techniques required in this build that i've never attempted before. i doubt i will be restoring anything more complicated than this. anything less should be fairly straight forward.
     
  39. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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  40. PatH

    PatH National Program Chair
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    Brian, thanks for sharing your progress.

    Just wondering where you found the firm pipe cleaners? Seems the ones I've seen recently in the craft stores were the soft version with long pile.

    Thanks!
    Pat
     
  41. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    #41 brian fisher, Dec 31, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
    ah man, that one is really nice also. i am digging the weights. ours has glasgow on the face. similar clock though.

    no worries pat. to be perfectly honest,i am actually kind of embarrassed to answer your question. i shopped 4 or 5 places for any pipe cleaner and came up empty handed. as an after thought, i was passing by the local "smoke and sex shop" on my way home and decided to stop in and check. low and behold, right there between the bongs and the, um...."toys" was exactly what i was looking for. so, if you are not a person of delicate sensibility, you can probably find them in a seedy place like that too.
     
  42. chimeclockfan

    chimeclockfan Registered User
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    Though a bit off-topic, Jacques (Borgfeldt) did a number of smaller 'bungalow' hall clocks with round dials. They are often found in Gothic styled cases and had 5, 6, or 9 tube movements.

    Loving the 11 tube restoration... keep up the good work. :coolsign:

    JC 1917.jpg
     
  43. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    #43 brian fisher, Jan 3, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
    thank you chimeclockfan. there is a nine tube jacques round face on eBay right now that needs a full restoration. the logic of sellers on that web site sometimes baffles me. i see the same clocks re listed for months and in some cases years at the same price with no sale. wouldn't you think that perhaps if it hasn't sold in that period of time, maybe its over priced?

    i think if i do end up with another hall clock in the future, it will probably be a matter of timing, price, and also at a point when i am jonesing for another project. there is something about those high end waltham's with the pierced split spandrel that i really like.

    if i ever find a restorable13 tube 7 melody jacques for a decent price, i will jump on it god willing. i think that movement is probably the holy grail of his legacy.

    a few weeks ago, there was a 9 tube clock with 5 tunes! that sold at auction for about 800 bucks! it was the moon dial face. i would have loved to had that clock but since i am knee deep in this one, the timing was wrong for me. i let it go without placing a bid. someone got a really good deal.

    here are a couple pics of it.

    Hbz6OE.jpg

    TKj6qI.jpg

    WGDcWi.jpg
     
  44. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    closer to which? just curious... :cool:
     
  45. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    i know, right?

    i was apprehensive to post that considering most members on a forum like this are older and probably more on the conservative side. it's not that i shop places like that but it really is honestly where i found those supplies. i think around here, those are the only type of store that sell these unfortunately. its perhaps more along the line that i'm just willing to do what it takes to get the job done

    the good news is that if you don't need them right away, i found that they are also available on Amazon. just search "pipe cleaner". the brand is "Zen".
     
  46. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    #46 brian fisher, Jan 8, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
    i made some progress today.

    first, i got my tubes tied. as i received the clock, the strings were all of different lengths. some of the hammers were hitting above the cap due to a few tubes set about 1/2" low.

    PqD0Qm.jpg

    the 4 on the right have been retied. the others are a pretty good representation of what i had to work with.

    SKmNTt.jpg

    i looked everywhere for something of appropriate size to tie string around. turns out my daughter's can of pepper spray was the perfect size. i think the diameter was 13/16".

    i finally opened up my last packing box containing the weights.

    0JQpPO.jpg

    ytE7Yu.jpg

    just like everything else, they have plenty of patina on them.

    i thought i would post a few pictures of the lead. i haven't seen any pics of jacques weights online, thus i figured i would document them here.

    x7y6BN.jpg

    time and strike weights are 12.5lbs on this 11 tube clock. thats good to know since they can be interchangeable. the chime weight is 25lbs.

    LSyebf.jpg

    Tatham and brothers, Unified lead co. i am guessing that even though the movement was obviously made in germany, it appears the lead was produced and installed here in the usa to save on shipping weight.

    vVtbBC.jpg
    Iq9FPW.jpg
    HAZSY7.jpg

    all three weights have this hand written sticker. by comparing all three, it appears they say:

    L.P. White

    1st one: 960/s11/4 35?
    2nd one: 960/s?/4 238
    3rd one: 960/s/2 238

    i don't know if these are original markings from the factory or if they have something to do with the first owner's name. perhaps there is another jacques clock out there with these stickers?
     
  47. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    #47 brian fisher, Jan 8, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
    rehFpU.jpg

    apparently, someone bounced the baby on his head. the weight hooks are made of a fairly hard brass. i know it will be difficult to make it perfect, but hopefully i can straighten it up a bit.

    gJm1Cz.jpg

    i had to be careful not to get too much heat. i brought the temp up to a light cherry red and allowed it too cool in an attempt to get the temper out of it. i then heated it up a second time and used a pair of pliers to straighten it out.

    npPS08.jpg

    i polished off the patina but it was obvious that the weights aren't supposed to be shiny.

    2z5zlW.jpg

    since i don't have a lathe, i clamped a hammer to my bench and twisted the shell over the handle while running sandpaper over the exterior. this was the best method i could think of to keep the sanding lines straight.

    iKAmfR.jpg

    the one on the right has been brushed with sandpaper. i believe its a good representation of the original finish.

    895F5G.jpg

    i had to get a little creative with the caps. i found i could run a bolt through the cap hole and spin it on my drill press.

    oN0O10.jpg

    another example of the contrast between polished and brushed.

    VvT2ei.jpg

    and finally, here is the finished product.

    i ended up disassembling the pendulum for the umpteenth time because i wanted it to have a matching finish. i didn't get any photos but they are forthcoming.
     
  48. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    how come you don’t have a lathe?
     
  49. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    i guess i'm still new to this game. i have Jim on the hunt. he thinks i need a Derbyshire.:D
     
  50. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    #50 brian fisher, Jan 27, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2018
    i guess its been a while since i have updated. i have been busy with other life things and haven't had the time to work on my clock as much as i would like. i did accomplish a major feat with the help of Jim D who was gracious with his time and expertise.

    Jim spent an entire afternoon teaching me how to replace the worn out bushings in my plates. I can't even begin to describe everything i learned that day.

    here is what we started with

    BO4Af5.jpg

    this one looks like the previous repairman gave it three tries before he got it right.

    we replaced 3 winding arbor bushings in total.

    HvRvpk.jpg

    here is a pic of the machine setup.

    hDtBr6.jpg

    cut out.

    HJSY9H.jpg

    Jim made bushings from scratch on the lathe.

    GAMEG1.jpg

    this is the final product. i smoothed out most of the previous scratches on the back of the plate. these are the same ones i have been complaining about since i unpacked the movement. i didn't want to wear down the logo so i left that area pretty much as it was.

    rHWahT.jpg

    cht4eS.jpg

    at this point, i have the movement back together to check and adjust the clearances. everything is spinning smoothly.

    i need to take it apart again, i plan to run everything through the cleaning solution one last time. there are a few parts that need to be installed that were omitted because they would be a barrier to the trains moving freely in the plates. all the levers, crutch, and pin barrel will be next so everything can be checked for proper working order.

    last but not least, i have collected a few more items needed for the plating process.

    bFDE4K.jpg

    9" pyrex type cooking pans are the perfect size for the fretting on the face of a clock this size. i've spent some time scouring the usual suspects for used pans. these came from the Habitat for humanity restore, garage sales, and the local goodwill. they were all about 2.00 each. i have an adjustable DC power source on the way from amazon. about the only thing i still have on my shopping list is the gold solution.
     

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