Hermle Westminster: No chime, no strike

Douglas Ballard

Registered User
Dec 2, 2011
1,550
12
38
69
Alma, MI
Country
Region
I have puzzled over this for a week and can't figure it out on my own. The lift levers are raised but it never goes in to warning, either for the chime or the strike. Here is a video.

Appreciate any assistance!
 

R. Croswell

Registered User
Apr 4, 2006
11,084
1,165
113
Trappe, Md.
www.greenfieldclockshop.com
Country
Region
First, check that you have power all the way to the top of the chime train. See if you can back up the wheel that drives the fly and release it. Does it power back to its original position? If so, it should be easy to see when the wheels stop what pin or lever is preventing things from turning.

RC
 

tracerjack

NAWCC Member
Jun 6, 2016
1,782
276
83
Lodi, CA
Country
Region
If you move the hand gradually towards a quarter hour, it should go into warning around five minutes before, but sometimes only a minute or two before. If you move the hand slowly until the lever just begins to rise and stop there, you should be able to track down why the chime stop pin isn't being released into warning, since that is the first thing that is supposed to happen. When it comes to things like this, my tenacious side always takes over, so I dying so see you find the problem and fix it too.
 

Douglas Ballard

Registered User
Dec 2, 2011
1,550
12
38
69
Alma, MI
Country
Region
It isn't going into warning either for the chime or the strike. Looking at it now.
 

kinsler33

Registered User
Aug 17, 2014
3,737
518
113
74
Lancaster, Ohio, USA
Country
Region
Here is what it is doing now, arrrrrghh!
If you haven't done anything to the clock between the first video and the second, then the two cam disks--the lumpy one and the round one with the single pin--are slipping on their shafts. There are two setscrews on each, and they can indeed get loose.

In the second video, the lumpy cam disk is ready to make the clock chime the entire 16-note Westminster sequence and then strike the hour. However, your minute hand is not coming up to the 12, and so the clock's auto-correct function prevents both warning and chiming until the minute hand moves to the 12. This is normal and proper operation. However, the chimes are not stopping at the end of the 16 note Westminster sequence as it should. This is likely because of synchronization problems, or a sticky lever that won't fall into a notch.

So: make sure that the levers are perfectly free to drop, and see that the cam wheel setscrews are tight. (You can keep them a bit looser when you're adjusting their synchronization, and that way you can just twist the cam disks to their proper locations.

M Kinsler
 

tracerjack

NAWCC Member
Jun 6, 2016
1,782
276
83
Lodi, CA
Country
Region
The strike side seems to be functioning properly, and I think I saw it go into warning in the video. The fan didn't turn more than a half rotation, but it did move before the strike began. I think I see the problem. When you turned the hand to the 1/4 hour, the locking plate was sitting at the 3/4 mark. The chime correction lever will not release the chime until the hour, so with it sitting like that, it was supposed to pass through the 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4 without chiming. It won't release the chime until the hour. To fix it, with the locking plate sitting at the 3/4 mark, undo the minute hand and relocate it to the 3/4 hour. Hope that works. If it does, then your problem is actually why the chimes aren't stopping until the 3/4 slot in the locking plate.
 
Last edited:

Willie X

Registered User
Feb 9, 2008
14,373
1,607
113
Your chime is running slowly.
There is a good chance you have excessive wear at the chime sequence disk's and/or the chime stop disk. Try wiggling these disk, up and down for the stop disk, right and left for the chime sequence disk. Anything more than slight wear will cause the chime to slow and stop. Usually intermittent for some time, eventually becoming a full stop.
How old is your clock? Age is the first thing I look at on a Hermle. Any movement over 15 to 20 years old can be badly worn. This can have a more than expected effect because the gear teeth are very small, north of the 3rd wheel, on these movements.
Willie X
 

dad1891

Registered User
Feb 28, 2014
608
29
28
Denver, Colorado
Country
I have puzzled over this for a week and can't figure it out on my own. The lift levers are raised but it never goes in to warning, either for the chime or the strike. Here is a video.

Appreciate any assistance!
Looks like the chime locking cam is too far advanced. The pin should be at the bottom of the valley, approximately in the center when the chime stops. The way the clock is set up now, the pin that rides on the cam is moving up the ramp before the chime train locks.
 

Willie X

Registered User
Feb 9, 2008
14,373
1,607
113
Something could have slipped as already mentioned by kins.
When the chime is stopped the warning pin should be at 11 o'clock and the chime sequence disk pin should be centered in the bottom of one of the troughs/gulletts.
 

kinsler33

Registered User
Aug 17, 2014
3,737
518
113
74
Lancaster, Ohio, USA
Country
Region
Something could have slipped as already mentioned by kins.
When the chime is stopped the warning pin should be at 11 o'clock and the chime sequence disk pin should be centered in the bottom of one of the troughs/gulletts.
But I like Willie X's analysis as well: the Chime 3 and Chime 4 wheels wear out their pivot holes in these Hermle's, and that will allow the cam disks to wobble enough to mess up the chimes. In point of fact, the clock may have both problems. I've bushed quite a few of these, but I wonder if Butterbearings wouldn't work better on these fast, heavily-loaded wheels.

M Kinsler
 

shutterbug

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Oct 19, 2005
46,981
2,000
113
North Carolina
Country
Region
Often the center shaft is badly worn, and sitting too low to provide the lift needed to release the stop. Your hour lift seems OK, but the quarters don't. Also you now have chime stop issue mentioned above. I see two issues that need your attention here. Try lifting up and down on that center shaft to see how much movement you get. Also look at the pivot hole on the back side of it. That movement might still be in production, and it might be less expensive (time-wise) to replace it.
 

Douglas Ballard

Registered User
Dec 2, 2011
1,550
12
38
69
Alma, MI
Country
Region
Thank you for all the pointers. I will examine each issue. I'm not sure how old the movement is, I'm guessing at least 20 years or more.
 

harold bain

NAWCC Member
Deceased
Nov 4, 2002
40,853
179
63
73
Whitby, Ontario, Canada
Country
Region
No need to guess the year it was made. These movements are date coded on the back plate, if it is a Hermle.
 

Willie X

Registered User
Feb 9, 2008
14,373
1,607
113
Looks like 37 years old. Everywhere you see the black pivot poop, wear is usually present. Be sure to check the spring barrels. If they wobble on their arbors, it can cause all kinds of power issues, often intermittent.
Willie X
 

wow

NAWCC Member
Jun 24, 2008
5,274
554
113
76
Pineville, La. (central La.)
Country
Region
Such a shame to have to deal with these problems on movements (Hermle) simply because of poor construction from the beginning. A 20-30 year old movement should not wear out that fast. And.... the replacement movements are worse. Makes me want to quit working on them period. Just take in the oldtimers. They can be rebuilt so they are dependable for another 100 years. GOT IT OFF MY CHEST!!!
 

Douglas Ballard

Registered User
Dec 2, 2011
1,550
12
38
69
Alma, MI
Country
Region
None of the arbors seem to be loose and all lock screws are tight. Please look at this photo and tell me if the locking plate is in the correct position for the quarter hour strike. The locking pallet pin is at the 11 o'clock position. The clock will not go in to warning for the chime or strike at this point.
20171030_161217_001.jpg
 

shutterbug

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Oct 19, 2005
46,981
2,000
113
North Carolina
Country
Region
Nope. Pull off the timing cam and let the chime run until it stops. Put the cam back on at the 3/4 hour position, and try it. That should fix you up.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bujumon

bangster

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Jan 1, 2005
19,988
513
113
utah
Country
Region
The locking plate shows that the first quarter has been completed.
It's failing to stop because the locking cam is positioned wrong. It's supposed to stop when the pin on the cam catches the hook on the long lever (behind the cam) and stops the train.

Here, the pin misses the hook because the lever has already started to rise again before the pin gets there. The pin on the locking cam is late at the switch. Loosen the setscrew and turn the locking cam counterclockwise a little bit, then tighten the setscrew. If that didn't do it, try again.
 
Last edited:

shutterbug

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Oct 19, 2005
46,981
2,000
113
North Carolina
Country
Region
Either way will get you there. Moving the locking cam will change the length of the warning run. If it's correct now, my way is best. If you don't like the way the warning is running, then Bangster's way will perhaps make some improvement.
 

bangster

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Jan 1, 2005
19,988
513
113
utah
Country
Region
From the latest video, everything seems to be going right except that it doesn't stop.
 

Douglas Ballard

Registered User
Dec 2, 2011
1,550
12
38
69
Alma, MI
Country
Region
I'm afraid I've gotten it totally messed up. I tried the link to set the chimes but it is "dead." No warning no chime despite the adjustments bangster recommended.
 

shutterbug

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Oct 19, 2005
46,981
2,000
113
North Carolina
Country
Region
You'll have to watch it as it sets up. You have two stop levers. The front one only comes into play at the 3/4 hour mark, and controls the auto-synch function. The back one needs to lift enough to release the stop pin at warning, and another lever grabs the pin to hold it until the chime is called for. Make sure the pin is being released. If it is, you have a power issue. If it isn't, you might have a sloppy center arbor this is worn and sitting too low to effectively lift the lever.
 

Eckytock

Registered User
Feb 24, 2012
69
0
6
Country
Region
The photo below shows my FHS movement which has chime setup very similar to your Hermle. Your latest photo shows the chime locking plate just before the 1/2 hour chime The pin on the chime lock cam (left side) is in the 11 o'clock position showing it is in warning.
Note on my photo the pin on the chime locking lever is higher, almost level with the cam of the locking plate. I assume it has been pushed higher from the star cam via the chime warning lever (lifting piece).

What stops the the chime sequences is the chime lock pin hitting the cut-out stop on the chime locking lever. This stop is hidden from view behind the chime correction lever (the hook). Lift the hook and you will see the stop.

In your video what appears to be happening is the stop on the chime locking lever is being raised just as the locking pin arrives The pin misses the stop on the hour chime and keeps going. The chime sequence is therefore constantly out of sync. Of course I may be wrong?

FHS Chime Sequence 002.jpg
 

bangster

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Jan 1, 2005
19,988
513
113
utah
Country
Region
Check out Chime Clock Basics. The pics may help make things clearer. Right now they (the pics) are acting funny. When you click one to enlarge it, it takes you to another page. Get back to where you were with the back arrow.

I hope to get this fixed shortly
 

bangster

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Jan 1, 2005
19,988
513
113
utah
Country
Region
ADJUSTING THE WESTMINSTER CHIME
The Westminster is in adjustment when the four descending notes of the first quarter chime have been played as the long-lever cam follower drops into the locking plate notch after the short first-quarter segment.
1. Ignoring the hammers for the moment, allow the chime train to run until it has completed the first-quarter segment on the locking plate. The cam follower is in that notch. The locking plate thinks the first-quarter chime has just been played. Leave it there and turn to the back of the clock.
2. Loosen the set-screw of the main wheel on the back of the movement, and pull it out of mesh with the other gears.
3. Manually turn the pin drum until you see the hammers fall in descending sequence, 1-2-3-4. Those have produced the notes of the first-quarter chime...just as the locking plate thinks.
4. Slide the main wheel back into mesh with the other gears, and tighten the set-screw. The Westminster chime is now in adjustment.
 

Douglas Ballard

Registered User
Dec 2, 2011
1,550
12
38
69
Alma, MI
Country
Region
I have reviewed the Basics page. At this point I believe the problem is that the clock will not go into warning for either the chime or the strike. There is power to all three trains.
 

bangster

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Jan 1, 2005
19,988
513
113
utah
Country
Region
In your video at post #5, the train should release as you pass each quarter. But it only releases on the 4th qtr, when the lifting piece is raised by the tall lobe on the center cam. The other three lobes aren't raising the long lever high enough to release the train.

A number of things could cause this. A most likely one has already been mentioned: a sloppy center-shaft bushing. The shaft sits lower in the hole, so the short lobes don't raise the long lever far enough to put it into warning.

Check that out. Take off the motion works --the snail and hour gear--and wiggle the shaft up and down, watching where it comes through the plate. Then get back to us.
 

Douglas Ballard

Registered User
Dec 2, 2011
1,550
12
38
69
Alma, MI
Country
Region
No wiggle in that shaft. Shouldn't the hammers strike if I manually lift the lifting lever or the other levers? The long lever does lift high enough for the locking pallet to advance, however nothing happens.
 

Eckytock

Registered User
Feb 24, 2012
69
0
6
Country
Region
In your video at post #5, the train should release as you pass each quarter. But it only releases on the 4th qtr, when the lifting piece is raised by the tall lobe on the center cam. The other three lobes aren't raising the long lever high enough to release the train.
The train cannot be released because the chime assembly is out of sync. The chime correction lever (hook) will not let go of the locking pin. Only on the high lift does the train release but does not stop until the correction lever drops to catch the pin again on the 3/4 chime.
The train cannot stop as it should on the quarters because the locking pin is missing the stop on the locking (long) lever which is behind the hook and hidden from view. From their positions in #5 I would try advancing the "locking plate" clockwise a mm or two or turn the "lock pin cam" anticlockwise a mm or two.
 

bangster

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Jan 1, 2005
19,988
513
113
utah
Country
Region
The chime correction lever has nothing to do with anything on the first three qtrs. And the clock is failing to release on the first 3 qtrs. Has to be because the long lever isn't lifted high enough to effect release.

Is what I think.
 

shutterbug

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Oct 19, 2005
46,981
2,000
113
North Carolina
Country
Region
Just for clarification, are you saying that manually lifting the lever and verifying that the pin is released you get no movement? Or does it go into warning, and then not release for the chime sequence? Maybe a good next step would be to remove the stop cam (the highest one in your pics) and see if the train will just keep running. You might have something interfering with the train.
 

Douglas Ballard

Registered User
Dec 2, 2011
1,550
12
38
69
Alma, MI
Country
Region
I removed the stop cam, nothing. The train will not go in to warning, nor will it strike/chime. I can't see anything holding it up though, but I'm still looking. Seems when you manually raise the levers it should strike/chime but it does not. I reset the drum too, didn't correct the problem. Sorry to be such a PITA but appreciate everyone's input.
 

Douglas Ballard

Registered User
Dec 2, 2011
1,550
12
38
69
Alma, MI
Country
Region
Here is the latest video

Also a pic of how I set it up right after the quarter chime should have sounded.
20171030_161217_001.jpg
 

David S

NAWCC Member
Dec 18, 2011
7,212
256
83
Brockville, On Canada
Country
Region
I think in most of your pictures the rack seems to have been hung up and not resting on the snail. Are you sure something is not jammed there?

David
 

Douglas Ballard

Registered User
Dec 2, 2011
1,550
12
38
69
Alma, MI
Country
Region
David, yes the rack was jammed. Fixed that although it did not fix the problem. I think it is time to put this one in a box for the future.
 

bangster

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Jan 1, 2005
19,988
513
113
utah
Country
Region
If the train doesn't run even if you raise the long lever manually, you have more than one problem: (1) Not enough lift from the center cam (see video); (2) Even if there were enough, it still wouldn't run.

Are you sure the mainspring is wound?:eek:
 

Douglas Ballard

Registered User
Dec 2, 2011
1,550
12
38
69
Alma, MI
Country
Region
If the train doesn't run even if you raise the long lever manually, you have more than one problem: (1) Not enough lift from the center cam (see video); (2) Even if there were enough, it still wouldn't run.

Are you sure the mainspring is wound?:eek:
Well . . . it wouldn't be the first time one of my clocks wouldn't run because I failed to wind it, that's for sure! This one is wound, all three trains, let all three down and rewound them just to be sure a spring wasn't sticking. I'm guessing there is more than one problem. Seems if the levers are raised manually it ought to run but it doesn't.
 

tracerjack

NAWCC Member
Jun 6, 2016
1,782
276
83
Lodi, CA
Country
Region
[QUOTE="Douglas Ballard, post: 1149252, member: 39425"...Seems if the levers are raised manually it ought to run but it doesn't.[/QUOTE]
In your second video, the chime side did run on the hour, it just wouldn't stop. Are you now saying that if you raise the long lever with your finger(not with the minute hand) high enough to release the warning pin, the warning wheel doesn't move?
 

David S

NAWCC Member
Dec 18, 2011
7,212
256
83
Brockville, On Canada
Country
Region
Doug top right thru the hole there is a wheel with a warning pin on it. Is it clear? i.e. nothing holding it up.

David
 

shutterbug

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Oct 19, 2005
46,981
2,000
113
North Carolina
Country
Region
That lever is not lifting the release lever even a little. Could it be hanging up on the timing cam or the stop cam? Maybe bent?
 

tracerjack

NAWCC Member
Jun 6, 2016
1,782
276
83
Lodi, CA
Country
Region
Can you manually make the chime start by lifting the long lever as high as it will go and flicking the fly wheel or finger pushing the warning wheel?
 

Douglas Ballard

Registered User
Dec 2, 2011
1,550
12
38
69
Alma, MI
Country
Region
Can you manually make the chime start by lifting the long lever as high as it will go and flicking the fly wheel or finger pushing the warning wheel?
It will not start manually lifting any of the levers. I think I'm just going to have to sit and examine this thing until I find out why it won't go into warning. I flick the fly on either side of the movement, they turn freely but will not activate the strike or chime train.
 

David S

NAWCC Member
Dec 18, 2011
7,212
256
83
Brockville, On Canada
Country
Region
Doug I have read through some of the posts again but didn't find out what the starting point is. Is this a movement that just stopped working, or is it one that you took apart for servicing and now it doesn't work. If you did service it, did the strike and chime work before?

It looks like it is in continuous auto correct mode.

David
 

Douglas Ballard

Registered User
Dec 2, 2011
1,550
12
38
69
Alma, MI
Country
Region
David,
It was working then just stopped striking/chiming. The movement is "fairly" clean, I'm not competent enough to take apart a three train movement. Nothing seems jammed up in any of the trains. The time works fine.


Doug I have read through some of the posts again but didn't find out what the starting point is. Is this a movement that just stopped working, or is it one that you took apart for servicing and now it doesn't work. If you did service it, did the strike and chime work before?

It looks like it is in continuous auto correct mode.

David
 

bangster

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Jan 1, 2005
19,988
513
113
utah
Country
Region
So you're saying there's no way to release the chime train. First time I've ever heard of such a thing. :?|:^
 

Douglas Ballard

Registered User
Dec 2, 2011
1,550
12
38
69
Alma, MI
Country
Region
Not sure how but it is chiming (after loosing the back wheel and manually turning the chime drum) but not striking because the strike train hangs up when the locking plate is at the top of the hour. At lease I've had some progress thanks to all the help here. Here is the latest video, it chimes on all four quarters, this video is of the last quarter before the strike.

Well that video is not very good. If you can't make it out I'll take another one.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
167,206
Messages
1,457,084
Members
87,368
Latest member
luc1lle160
Encyclopedia Pages
1,057
Total wiki contributions
2,914
Last edit
E. Howard & Co. by Clint Geller