Hermle runs great but loses time!

[bchaps]

I cleaned a Hermle 451-053. Other than being covered in Liquid Wrench and crud it was in decent condition. After reassembling and lubricating, the movement was placed on the test stand and like many Hermle's, it held a flat rate of 3960 BPH measured at the pendulum. No variation for the quarter warn...just a consistent 3960 beats every hour. Great, right? Well, when I installed the hands, I find it's losing 30 minutes a day. After doing the math for the 30 minute loss, I find the rate must be about 4042. So, I cranked the pendulum up. It's now running 4037...maxed the pendulum out! ..and it's still losing time

I know the obvious area is the compression spring on the center wheel. The hand has noticeable tension when readjusting, so I don't think it's the center wheel spring. I just checked the star cam assembly..it's tight. Before I tear this down again to count teeth, is there something obvious I'm overlooking? The clock runs great and holds a consistent rate at the pendulum. Can't increase the rate any further, but still losing time at the hands.

Thanks,

Bill

 

[Scottie-TX]

I find it's losing 30 minutes a day. After doing the math for the 30 minute loss, I find the rate must be about 4042. So, I cranked the pendulum up. It's now running 4037...maxed the pendulum out! ..and it's still losing time


Thanks,

Bill

I think sometimes we may be overtooled - have too many - tools that previously we did fine without. I don't have a micro-set or beat counter. Probly never will. So I cannot ponder questions such as yours. If the clock runs slow I raise the pendulum bob.
Nah. I don't think this has anything to do with hands tension. Nor do you think so. You know how much tension hands require.
Now you did the math but both of us know about the math. It's for the theoretical pendulum I've never found at Timesavers. They're ALWAYS outta stock. If I ever get one a them theoretical pendulums . . . . . . .
So it WAS losing a half hour a day. You did the math and raised the bob - all the way - maxed it out. It's still losing time.
Yep. It's still losing time but I'll propose a bet you'll decline.
I'll bet it's no longer losing a half hour a day. Fact, I'll bet it ain't losing FIFTEEN minutes a day.
I doubt it but mebbe someone stuck some diffrunt wheelz in there.

 

[bchaps]

Scottie...you must be a seer! This morning it was 10 minutes fast!!!! (but the rate has been consistent all night) I'll observe for a while and see what happens.

Bill

 

[Tony Ambruso]

And the only way Bill would know if the clock was consistent all night was to have it hooked to a Microset or something similar. They are invaluable to a professional, who must work against time.

 

[Patrick R]

Bchaps
By chance when you had it apart, did you install any bushings? If so one might be to tight. Is the hour hand rubbing against the minute hand, or is the hour hand pressed on to far rubbing on the face? Are you sure you oiled every oil sink on time side? And is it possible that the pendulum is hitting one of the gong rods, but I am sure you would be able to hear that.
Pat

 

[Bryan Prindle]

Bill:

Don't be so sure It's not the clutch. I had a Junghans that was erratic and I had a hard time believing it was the clutch, but I tightened it anyway and now the clock runs perfect

See 'ya in the shop...
Bryan Prindle

 

[bchaps]

Tony, you're right. I'm using an optical pickup wired to the Microset. It's absolutely dead-on accurate when measuring from the pendulum tip and quickly allows me to bring a clock on time. Because of the erratic nature of the motion works, while the movement is rock-steady, I'm beginning to believe Bryan might be correct. If it doesn't settle down real fast, I have to do a tear down.

Pat, yes there were three new bushings, but none in the time train. At this point the dial has not been installed. My initial tests are bare-bone and then other components are added to isolate any potential problems. As an example, I have another Hermle 341 wall clock that runs for weeks on the test stand, but stops within 24 hours when cased. I now know to look for torquing or rubbing in the case.

Bill

 

[Patrick R]

Bchaps
Ok if I understand you correctly, you had the movement on the test stand, and it rand fine, then did you put the movement in the clock case without the face on?
If you did install it into the case with out the face, its possible its out of beat in the case as opposed as if you had it on a test stand. I also have the MicroSet#3 and I ran into a problem with a french clock using the count mode to find out what the BPR was and every time I checked each our, and left it running over night, the numbers just weren't even close, The problem was the escape wheel was to far from the verge, causing it to skip and run to fast. So Before taking it apart again you might experiment with the depth of the escape wheel and the pallets on the verge. If it slow I would make the distance of the escape wheel further apart, just a small adjustment. I its to fast move the EW closer to the pallets. Also look at the escape wheel very close to see if you have any bent teeth, or short and long teeth. on the escape wheel. Good luck.
Pat

 

[bchaps]

Patrick...your first suggestion may be correct. Sometimes when we're in that "zone" between sleep and awake, our brains are very active. My brain was looking at everything it could consider that would affect clock hand output and I couldn't recall definitely lubricating the front center arbor. As my brain considered this thought, I realized if enough friction occurred in that bushing, it could overpower the clutch spring, causing the hands to slip and vary from movement speed. So, several mornings ago,...still in my PJ's I ran down the steps and lubricated the front center arbor. I didn't see any change until the next morning when it was running fast. (and credited Scottie for being a Seer) The clutch could still be the culprit, but I'm now betting it was too much friction in a dry center arbor. This morning it was 20 minutes fast, which is a far cry from 30 minutes slow. The problem is definitely in the motion works.

Pat, no... the movement is still "bare bones" on the test stand. It's just the movement on a seat board with weights and hands. As mentioned earlier. I normally "add accessories" one at a time to watch for variation. This is a diagnosis method that I used regularly when checking computer code. Many times, I'll do an initial test of the time train only. Then, if satisfactory, add chime and strike trains and again test. As mentioned above, I have a "come-back" that will run all week in test, but when cased will fail within 24 hours. Something is happening in the case...rubbing or twisting of the frame which will both stop the time train.

Concerning "out of beat" Pat, after repairing clocks for a while, you will hear the "beat" of everything. The windshield wipers are out of beat!..., the tar strips on the Interstate are out of beat! Your kid's tapping is out of beat...! It becomes an obsession...we now expect the world to be in beat!...and now your kid looks at you very strangely because you yelled over his Ipod "if you're going to drum with your fingers, at least keep it in beat!"

I may not be "hip", but I'm in beat!

Bill

 

[Scottie-TX]

Shoot! I knew it was hands friction problem all the time. I was certain that you'd go to ANY lengths to prove me wrong and in the process, come to the correct conclusion, prove me wrong, and fix your clock.

 

[shutterbug]

Scottie - cute avatar

 

[Scottie-TX]

Thanks.
Actually I was concerned that others may dislike it - object to it as distracting. That's why I took 'im down after a day . Wasn't sure even I liked 'im all that much. Then it was HAROLD, I believe who hailed his return. Actually I like him much better full size because of the animation rate. For some reason when compressed to avatar size, it also speeded up motion. I like him FAR better like this:

 

[Patrick R]

Bill
Yea I figured you knew if it was in beat. I just haven't had the time to keep up on who all has experience in clock repair, and you who doesnt, so it sound like you have a handle on this project.
Respectfully Pat

 

[Mike Phelan]

I think sometimes we may be overtooled - have too many - tools that previously we did fine without. I don't have a micro-set or beat counter. Probly never will. So I cannot ponder questions such as yours. If the clock runs slow I raise the pendulum bob.

Someone is on my side!
Tompion, Graham, Harrison and Quare seemed to do without all these gizmos (or electricity!)

Nah. I don't think this has anything to do with hands tension. Nor do you think so. You know how much tension hands require.

I think I'll have to design a special clutch slippage gauge to see if a clock is running to time but the hands are slipping.

I'll call it a 'marker pen' - how's that? I'll put a dot on the centre wheel, at the exact hour, and see if it stays there when the clock allegedly loses/gains. No electricity used and we'll sell them at £2 each - cheap at half the price.

 

[Tony Ambruso]

Mike said:
Someone is on my side!
Tompion, Graham, Harrison and Quare seemed to do without all these gizmos (or electricity!)


Very cute, Mike.

I will readily agree with your statement because it is absolutely true. However, for all the people who overlook the vast advantages of owning and working with a Microset, I must add that they save a tremendous amount of time. These machines do much more than reveal the BPS or BPH of your clock. It can find the proper rate of a clock. This is real handy when you don't know the beat or model and do not have a tooth count (or forgot to get a tooth count). They can show a beat rate over any period of time at any defined interval - very handy for finding patterns of trouble. This also implies the capture of that data for your careful analysis at your convenience. It reveals beat error, and a bunch of other things that I don't use much. Plus, it does all this with the appropriate attachments for watches.

For me, the tool is indispensible, not only for its convenience and the TIME is saves me, but also for getting anything I deliver in beat. I have some sort of problem in my shop. I cannot properly time clocks there. Clocks run significantly faster in my shop than they do in my customers' homes. So I consequently time all clocks that I deliver at the customer's home. See how long you have to stay to do that by trial and error (I hate packing a bag for an overnight stay). Heck, the Microset will tell you how high or low to adjust the pendulum. That will get you real close after the first reading.

This is not meant to be an ad for the device. Rather, it is to educate those who feel the device is unnecessary. We made out all right before we had computers, but it hasn't stopped their huge proliferation. Many would not want to live without one now.

The Microset is not cheap nor is it a frill. Nothing in my shop is more useful. Per amount or time of use, it surpasses the lathe. Sometimes I wish I had two of them. It makes me more productive and helps me solve complex problems more quickly. I know these are problems any one of you would eventually solve without the device, and time may not be an issue to all, but when you work with many clocks, it is an issue.

I have no doubt many of you can get along just fine without one, but I wouldn't want to. It's like today's coffee maker. Nobody really needs one; we just all have one. Why? Because it works a whole lot better than boiling coffee in a pan over a wood fire.

 

[R. Croswell]

Thanks.
Actually I was concerned that others may dislike it - object to it as distracting. That's why I took 'im down after a day . Wasn't sure even I liked 'im all that much. Then it was HAROLD, I believe who hailed his return. Actually I like him much better full size because of the animation rate. For some reason when compressed to avatar size, it also speeded up motion. I like him FAR better like this:

Hay Scottie, what did you do last night......wind up the cat and put out the clock?

 

[Mike Phelan]

The Microset is not cheap nor is it a frill. Nothing in my shop is more useful. Per amount or time of use, it surpasses the lathe. Sometimes I wish I had two of them. It makes me more productive and helps me solve complex problems more quickly. I know these are problems any one of you would eventually solve without the device, and time may not be an issue to all, but when you work with many clocks, it is an issue.

I can see where you are going, Tony - my response was not too serious!
I suppose that there is a vast difference between someone who does it for a living, and one who is just a hammer-chewer who fixes 2 clocks a year!
Like me.
Here on our little island, the only people who own proper clocks can usually repair them themselves - so there are hardly any clock repair shops as you have there.

I can see the need for using such things on watches, where there are only a certain number of different beat rates, and they are well known.

Surely with clocks, though, you would need to know the beat rate before using such a machine? (maybe my ignorance showing up there). How can you do that without doing tooth counts?

Also, say, you have an 8-day clock - surely it needs to be run for a week before you send it back, so you would soon set it to time? Mine always vary after a week or two when I have serviced them, then settle down - with a clock, the customer would naturally cope with that - a watch is a different matter.

I have no doubt many of you can get along just fine without one, but I wouldn't want to. It's like today's coffee maker. Nobody really needs one; we just all have one. Why? Because it works a whole lot better than boiling coffee in a pan over a wood fire.

I do need and have a coffee maker - (a) We don't have a wood fire and (b) coffee needs to have the water above 100 degrees C to get the proper flavour out.
As for camping, you need a Kelly Kettle!!

Back on topic, I am not questioning what anyone you are doing, just asking questions (!) as we have no real parallels here for clock repair shops.
I do see folk here on the forum who fix the occasional clock for themselves buying expensive gadgets; probably just a National trend, I think. Vive la difference!

Back to have some more coffee ....

 

[Tony Ambruso]

Mike said:

I can see the need for using such things on watches, where there are only a certain number of different beat rates, and they are well known.

Surely with clocks, though, you would need to know the beat rate before using such a machine? (maybe my ignorance showing up there). How can you do that without doing tooth counts?

Also, say, you have an 8-day clock - surely it needs to be run for a week before you send it back, so you would soon set it to time? Mine always vary after a week or two when I have serviced them, then settle down - with a clock, the customer would naturally cope with that - a watch is a different matter.

*******************************

Mike, the Rate Finder works by counting the number of beats it takes for the minute hand to make one revolution. It is extremely accurate if you let it go 4 or 5 times around. You can do this rather quickly by leaving the pendulum off.

The Rate Finder works with an optical sensor set up to count the number of oscillations of the pendulum or its crutch, while the magnetic sensor detects the passage of the tiny magnet placed on the end of the minute hand. The number of beats between trips of the magnetic sensor are captured and averaged. The longer it runs the steadier and more accurate the reading.

It really helps when you can't count teeth and can't use "The Clockmaker's Beat Book."

It's also very helpful for capturing strike information, and it also has an accoustic output (beat amplifier). It can capture data remotely from the shop, which you can bring back for analysis. All data can be stored and compared to data sets captured in another year or so.

The data output can be analyized and manipulated to eliminate unwanted data points or "noise" or to display the data in different formats. It's just too helpful beyond words. This device has helped me solve some very difficult problems that would have caused me not to work on anything else for a day or two to solve. The Microset watches the clocks for me. I can read several day's data in a few minutes.

I know that the clocks must still run 8 days in an eight day clock. I use the Microset to make sure the clock has minimum beat error, keeping it within 0 - 5%. Then, I time the clock and let it run. I check the time in the middle and end and adjust the speed of the pendulum accordingly.

When one makes a pendulum length adjustment, he won't really know what he's done for another 8 days. The Microset compresses the time it takes to get the clock acceptably timed. "Absolute perfection" will still take time, but it will shave weeks off the process.

With the cost of some of the tools we all use, I'd still want to use one. I'd certainly be willing to give up a bushing machine or an escape wheel tooth straightener for one. I realize that is a personal preference, but it is based upon the amount of time I use the tool.

 

[Mike Phelan]

Thanks for the info, Tony - indeed, there is a use if you were doing it for a living; possibly a bushing machine would be as well, if it were mainly American clocks or others with thin plates you encountered most.

Escape wheel straightener? A solution looking for a problem! I have one; it's called a "pair of pliers"

 

[Tony Ambruso]

Scottie, those two avatars are a stitch!

 

[bchaps]

Since lubricating the front main arbor, the clock has been constantly gaining time. So, all pendulum adjustments have now been based upon displayed time. Interestingly, I'm almost back to the correct rate of 3960 and the time is getting very close to perfect rate.

Whoda thunk missing the lubricant on the center arbor could play such havoc with regulation? Apparently, the dry bushing created enough resistance to cause the clutch to slip. The only thing I did was add a drop of Moebius 8040 to that one bushing hole and the problem disappeared!

Bill

 

[fixoclox]

Thanks.
Actually I was concerned that others may dislike it - object to it as distracting. That's why I took 'im down after a day . Wasn't sure even I liked 'im all that much. Then it was HAROLD, I believe who hailed his return. Actually I like him much better full size because of the animation rate. For some reason when compressed to avatar size, it also speeded up motion. I like him FAR better like this:

Scottie Glad you decided to keep the cat. I am having a problem trying to post an animated avatar. I have tried a number of times, the avatar posts but no motion. Since you navigate this board with such ease I was wondering if in simple terms you can clue me in on how it is done. Thanks in advance Bill:bang:

 

[Scottie-TX]

Mine didn't work initially either. I was having it hosted by an external website and dragging the URL over here. When I let THIS site host it by selecting "BROWSE" from Avatar change - VOILA! No problem. So you might
try that if you haven't. You will of course need to ascertain that your picture is animated BEFORE you post it. If it's not animated in YOUR file, obviously it can't be animated here.

 

[fixoclox]

Thanks Scottie I could not get it to work. Will try again later Thanks for the quick comback bill