Hermle - refitting gathering pallet, rear of gear been rebushed!

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by NEW65, Apr 10, 2019.

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  1. NEW65

    NEW65 Registered User

    Nov 17, 2010
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    Hi Chaps,
    I have fitted 8 bushings today in an Hermle movement - it now works very well!!
    However, when I re assembled the mechanism I was kinda keeping my fingers crossed in the hope that the gathering pallet didn't need adjusting as rear section of the gear has been rebushed! Not that lucky today though as the pin of the gathering pallet was too close for comfort to the Rack! I tried slightly bending the pin away but although this appears to be working I am not too confident to let this go and tbh would rather do the job right and remove the gathering pallet and reset its position.
    Of course, problem is refitting the gathering pallet as any downward force will push he bushing out!
    Is there a sensible way of refitting the gathering pallet securely without disturbing the rear bushing?
    It doesn't take much downward force to get a good enough hold to be reliable - I suppose a spot of loctite but I would rather not tbh!
    I have lots of spare gathering pallets so can easily exchange the one that I have just tried to adjust.
    Thanks as always :)
     
  2. David S

    David S Registered User
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    Dec 18, 2011
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    Yes there are ways to handle this situation.
    One is to use something that looks like a C clamp that presses on the gathering pallet and supports the pivot area on the back plate.
    clamp complete as general press.jpg

    The other thing I have done in order to consider the next person working on the movement is to make the gather pallet bushings with a step that get installed from inside the plate so they can't be pushed out. But most folks would consider this excessive so we can leave that one.

    David
     
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  3. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

    Apr 4, 2006
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    A tiny bit of Loctite retaining compound on the bushing may give a bit of help but probably not enough. I usually just arrange a piece of hard wood under the end of the pivot on the back side.

    RC
     
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  4. NEW65

    NEW65 Registered User

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    Looks a good idea David - did you make that tool yourself? It would have to be large enough to reach but would definitely work for sure! Thanks for adding this, I do appreciate it.
     
  5. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    Feb 22, 2010
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    If the bushing starts to become displaced, apply a little bit of Loctite (Sleeve Retaining Compound would be best) to the exposed portion of the bushing and re-seat it.
     
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  6. NEW65

    NEW65 Registered User

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    Thanks RC :) I like your suggestion of using a block of hard wood to help support the gear... as I recall although will need to check, the bushing very slightly projects further outwards than the pivot so this would be okay (I think?) to refit the gathering pallet without loosening the bushing.
     
  7. NEW65

    NEW65 Registered User

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    Thanks Time after time for adding this - the bushing was a good fit but it doesn't take much to push them out. I tend to use a hollow bar placed over the gathering pallets and then gently drive snugly into position with a very light weight hammer. It doesn't take much to ensure a tight fit on the tapered arbor. Good idea about the sleeve retaining compound. Don't know about you chaps, but whenever i loosen a bushing I feel as though I haven't made a good job. Thanks.
     
  8. David S

    David S Registered User
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    Yes I did. After seeing one made by AJSBSA (aka Stephen), one of our colleagues in the UK. I find as I get older I like trying to use more controlled force rather than tapping things on with my hollow punch sets.

    David
     
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  9. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

    Feb 9, 2008
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    Often these extended GP pivots have an upset scar lengthwise to help hold the GP When installing the GP, if it's the original one, it will drop right into place when placed in the original position.

    Also, making a small mark on the associated wheel rim, before removing the GP, will give you the correct position.

    If the extended pivot clearly shows an upset scar, a small scratch on the GP, in line with the scar, is better than marking the wheel rim. Wouldn't hurt to do both.

    Willie X
     
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  10. James Foster

    James Foster Registered User
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    Consider using a feeler gauge as is available at auto parts supply houses typically used to gap spark plugs. Cut a “V” notch in the blade that corresponds to the end-shake of that wheel in question. Slide the blade against the pivot between the pivot shoulder and the bushed back plate. The majority of the time the blade provides adequate backing distributing the load to the back plate rather than pushing out the bushing. It seems it might take a third hand to hold the gauge against the pivot but a lot of times the weight of the remaining blades wedges the notch in place. This also works on a center wheel where the rear pivot hole is bushed and it requires a lift cam be pressed on. They are handy for shimming cutters in tool posts, etc. This one is new (no notch yet).

    1717390D-39A1-431B-9EA1-615AA7895AC9.jpeg
     
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  11. R&A

    R&A Registered User

    Oct 21, 2008
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    I took I piece of brass tubing cut a slit in it to fit under the wheel so when I bush the back plate it won't knock out the bushing when I install the gathering pallet Works very well I think I have 2 or 3 for different spacing.
     
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  12. Jerry Kieffer

    Jerry Kieffer Registered User
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    To All

    I am a little late on this, but it is a excellent example why I will never be without a Watchmakers staking set for detailed work first attached photo.

    If I understand the OP`s question, one option would be that the bushing can be supported by a Staking tool stump on a standard Horological style anvil second photo.

    The gathering pallet can the be driven on using a standard Stacking set hollow punch also second photo.

    Jerry Kieffer

    fullsizeoutput_38e.jpeg fullsizeoutput_390.jpeg
     
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  13. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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    If it was off a little after reassembly couldn't you just spin it a little one way or the other?
     
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  14. NEW65

    NEW65 Registered User

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    Not sure about that Dan - they are sometimes very tight on the arbor but it has made me think now you have mentioned that! It may be possible to do this on the Hermle movements unlike others which have a square shaped arbor. Now you have mentioned this I will test your theory out on a super worn Hermle movement and see. I will report back and let you know. Thanks :)
     
  15. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    I wouldn't try to "spin it" with anything other than your fingers. This steel is soft as budda. Willie X
     
  16. NEW65

    NEW65 Registered User

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    Thanks everyone for your replies - very interesting!! I never noticed that Willie - I will take a look at the arbor more closely, thanks for adding this :) R&A - I also like the tubing idea too, never even crossed my mind but a great idea! The feeler gauge idea is great! Will definitely get a set now and cut out the V shapes... its a great idea! Jerry, sounds an excellent way of doing the job but I don't have a watchmakers staking set (yet!). RC - now why didn't I think of that! Thanks chaps :)
     
  17. NEW65

    NEW65 Registered User

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    Update... I tried placing a block of hardwood directly beneath the gear to help keep the bushing in position as I refitted the gathering pallet. I aligned everything perfectly well. I very gently tapped the GP in position on the arbor BUT later discovered that a very small amount of the pivot must have contacted the hardwood block of wood when i started tapping GP in position. This caused the pivot to bend unfortunately. Anyway I quickly dismantled the mechanism and exchanged the gear etc and re assembled and then used one of those dial retaining slides (which acted same as the feeler gauge) and that did the job nicely. Thanks chaps.
     
  18. NEW65

    NEW65 Registered User

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    Thanks Willie for confirming not to adjust the GP by rotating it - have to say that it would be the quickest possible way of making a small adjustment but wouldn't be good if the end of the arbor twisted off. Thanks again:)
     

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