Hermle 451-053H - 1979 Ridgeway

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by Dave T, May 27, 2018.

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  1. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    This is the first Hermle I've worked on. The movement is marked 79 so i assume it's 39 years old! After I cleaned it the clock looks pretty decent. But I haven't assembled and checked for pivot wear yet. It looks good, but this clock has small pivots and it will be hard to tell until I check it.
    So, the first question/concern is this strike hammer shaft "paddle". The star wheel has cut through it pretty deep to the point where there is not much lift. I've been searching for a parts diagram for this movement and also a replacement part. So far, haven't found anything.
    Can this be repaired, or purchased? Poor picture doesn't really show what I intended.
    Hermle 451 worn strike hammer paddle.jpg
     
  2. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    #2 Dave T, May 27, 2018
    Last edited: May 27, 2018
    Think I have an idea. Tell me if this is doable? Why can't I bend the "loop" (on the shaft that rests against the stop in the frame) downward slightly to compensate for the wear on the "paddle"?

    Edit: dumb question, This won't correct it. Looks like I still need a part.
     
  3. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    You can make one. Get a sturdy piece of wire, hammer the end of it to form the paddle, file to shape, use a small file and a punch to remove the old one, then insert the new one. Push it through the hole, flatten the end a little, then tap it back in place. Done.
     
  4. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    Just bend the old paddle latterly about 1/16". Make sure the star wheel will run completely on a new surface. Look closely, the worn groove is usually closer to one side than the other, use the side with the most meat.
    Willie X
     
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  5. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    #5 Dave T, May 27, 2018
    Last edited: May 27, 2018
    Thanks boys, Actually I considered both of those ideas, but my skills in this area are minimal. But then again, what have I got to lose. I'll try Willie's idea first, not sure yet how I will hold it to bend and what to bend it with, but I'll figure something out. Then I can go to plan B to make one if I mess it up.
    Got it! Moved it over about 1-2 mm. Now I'm good for the next 39 years. :)
     
  6. claussclocks

    claussclocks Registered User
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    #6 claussclocks, May 27, 2018
    Last edited: May 27, 2018
    I have a number of Hermle movements for scrap and parts. If you have trouble with it contact me and I will see if I have one and send it to you.

    For future reference another way to fix that is, I you have a lathe or access to a small drill press or dremel tool, cut a small piece of thin steel, drill and stake it to the old paddle. Use a dremel or like tool to shape your new steel to the paddle shape and make sure it is smooth. This is one way to avoid having to punch the old one out of the shaft if that is a problem for you

    By the way, Looks like it cleaned up real nice. Good job!!
     
  7. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Thanks Clauss, I've been watching ebay for parts and old movements, but so far I think I might be good. The only thing missing on this clock is the nut to hold the minute hand. I can probably find one somewhere.
    A little side note. I tried to get this clock to run and strike before I tore it down. It was filthy. I even sprayed it with PB blaster, and then washed that out by splashing in gasoline, and blew it out with my air compressor. Still couldn't get it to do anything after oiling the pivots. Would barely tick, and no strike and no chime.
    Here's what it looked like when I opened it up! (For anyone who thinks dunk and swish works.)
    Hermle 451 1.jpg
     
  8. R&A

    R&A Registered User

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    You should have put this in it's own thread
     
  9. claussclocks

    claussclocks Registered User
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    #9 claussclocks, May 28, 2018
    Last edited: May 28, 2018
    Yuck!! You have a lot of corrosion and goo there. You will need to clean thoroughly, (News flash, Huh!), Check your escape wheel teeth when you get it clean. Hard to tell through the green but a couple seem slightly bent. You can see better when you get the gunk off. You can use a pair of flat nosed smooth jawed pliers and just clamp and pull gently from the base of the tooth out to straighten a bent end. One little trick that might help you is after you clean the movement take some round tooth picks and chuck one up in it a dremel tool. Run at a low speed and run the toothpick point into your pivot holes to clean out any corrosion that might remain. Toothpick is too soft to hurt the hole but will clean it pretty good.

    If you don't already know be sure to remove the e-clip form the center wheel and remove it to clean it and the shaft. There should be a small spacer between the wheel pinion and the shaft. Don't lose it.
    You won't have tension on the minute hand.

    Ronell Clock sell a pack of 12 Hermle hand nuts for about around $4.50

    Oh, wait. This is the movement you show in the first picture. It did clean up nice. Great job. Guess you didn't need my cleaning tips. sorry if I stepped on your toes.
     
  10. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Not sure I understand, Doesn't belong here, or so dirty it deserves it's own thread?

    Never thought about doing that, but I'll give it a try.
    Escape wheel looks good, and I didn't remove the center wheel, I cleaned it intact. Probably not the best idea.
     
  11. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Here's my before and after cleaning.
    Anything I need to concern myself about aligning chime and strike before I put the top plate on?
    Hermle 451 27.jpg
     
  12. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    Instead of Dremel, hold the toothpick in a cordless screwdriver. Slower speed, better control. I like to dip it in mineral spirits or acetone.

    Not on a Hermle. (Usually)
     
  13. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    #13 Dave T, May 28, 2018
    Last edited: May 28, 2018
    Thanks Bangster, Got one more question about securing this gear on the center wheel. Does that star washer go under the clip and then the 4 arm spring against the wheel?
    Hermle 451 23.jpg

    Update, think I figured it out. the washer goes on the gear, then the 4 way spring and then the clip.
     
  14. claussclocks

    claussclocks Registered User
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    Right. Washer - Gear - 4 Way Tension spring - E clip
     
  15. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    Washer goes on the 'hand-shaft' first.
    Willie X
     
  16. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Well, I didn't assemble it correctly. I put the washer on after the gear and not before. NOt sure what this will cause, but the clock is back in the case and running, first time since I've seen it. BUT, no chime and no strike.
    Now I have to work through that. - Tomorrow!
     
  17. claussclocks

    claussclocks Registered User
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    Send pictures of the front plates and let's see if the chime/strike setup is correct.
     
  18. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    That would move the center wheel foward a bit. It may still work but should be corrected.
    Willie X
     
  19. claussclocks

    claussclocks Registered User
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    It could also make the minute hand prone to slip if the tension spring is not able to compensate for that extra space.
     
  20. claussclocks

    claussclocks Registered User
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    To check the assembly of your chime and strike I am attaching a few pictures. I find it best to set up a Hermle with the Center arbor set to just having tripped the 3/4 hour. At that point you will be setting the chime plate and locking disk at the point to next play the hour chime and release the strike, (one notch back from my picture). The Warning pin on the Chime side should be as close to straight up as possible when you set the chime plate and locking disk to arrest the pins on the chime/strike control arm. On the strike side the pin should be at about 10 o'clock or a little less. Not as critical since you should be able to set that after the chime. On the chime side be sure the chime plate and locking pin are not too far forward or back allowing for the strike arm to fall easily. The pictures attached show the setting after the hour strike has finished. It is important when you set the 3/4 that the safety locking arm falls into the notch on the back of the chime plate and arrest the pin on the locking disk. This will prevent the chime from getting out of sequence and playing the wrong set at the 1/4 /1/2 or 3/4 and messing up your strike.

    Your movement will use a paddle shaped lever on the star wheel to lift the strike arm instead of the rear lever pictured here but be sure that when you set it up the lever will stop as soon as possible after dropping of the star wheel arm. You will need that travel time when the next strike starts to build up speed in the train for the strike.

    IMG_20180526_232632504.jpg IMG_20180526_232447848.jpg IMG_20180526_232512469.jpg IMG_20180526_232604065.jpg IMG_20180526_232624076.jpg
     
  21. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    #21 Dave T, May 29, 2018
    Last edited: May 29, 2018
    Really do appreciate the help here guys. I've been studying this clock all morning and here's what I see and where I am currently.
    1. The clock does chime but slowly and doesn't want to stop. The arms rest against the chime rods, not sure why or how that happened. The chime sequence was off one note. I loosened the drive gear on the cam and rotated the cam to accommodate it.
    2. Clock still does not strike the hour at all.
    I tried to adjust as prescribed with the warning wheel pin on the chime side at the top and the strike side at 10. Not sure that it is correct yet.
    3. When I cleaned the parts I noticed the pin on the arm that rides the center cam was very short and at a 45° angle down nearly to the arm itself. Is that normal? Hermle 451 20.jpg

    Looks like it's destined for another teardown to correct the washer as discussed, and I also have one very small brass washer left!
    Here's a picture of the front, and I can take a video if that would help.
    Hermle 451 28.jpg
     
  22. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    This video will probably tell you more than I can.
     
  23. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    The back lever on the right is what stops the chime for the quarters, and sets up the strike. It appears to be rubbing against the front plate, and is not freely able to lift and fall like is should. Check that out and report your findings.
     
  24. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    All of those levers are free and no binding. Are you talking about the long lever? As in this diagram.
    Hermle nomenclature 1.jpg
    I've been studying starwheel adjustment, and the paddle is resting on it. I didn't remove the gathering pallet when I cleaned it, but looks like I might need to to adjust the starwheel?

    Right now I don't know where to start!
     
  25. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    The star wheel can be rotated on it's hub with a spanner, when necessary.
    Try not to be to discouraged. What you are doing is the only way to actually learn intermeade and advanced clock repair. Unfortunately the clock you are working on would have a difficulty factor of around 7.5 (on a 1 to10 scale). On the plus side, when you learn all the lessons this little clock has to teach, you will be able to repair nearly all modern clocks and the lessons also apply to most older clocks. Willie X
    Photo of a shopmade spanner:
    20150906_120046_1.jpg
     
  26. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Thanks Willie, This is the first 3 train clock I've worked on. And the first Hermle. The pivots on these are considerably smaller than old American clocks. So I suppose the tolerances are also less forgiving? I thought the pivots were okay and maybe they are, but I see some movement especially on the gathering pallet. Maybe I need to tear it down and do some bushing work. Wonder if that explains the slow chime train. If I assist the weight a little it strikes quicker more like I think it should. Would that be attributed to worn bushings?
    I found that reference to the spanner, but not being mechanically minded I can't see how it's used, (where it's applied to the wheel to turn it.) Does the two pins align with the teeth on the starwheel?
     
  27. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    Yes they do. The pins have to be short in order to get the spanner in place. Mark B and others just force the star wheel with a screwdriver ... I can assure you that the star-wheel is designed to turn but some turn easily and some with much difficulty.
    The worn bushing behind the gathering pallet is a common problem, as is the 2nd wheel at the back. Hammer lift should be no more than about 3/4" and the strike weight should be 4.7 pounds.
    Willie X
     
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  28. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    Essentially what you have to do is figure out how the chime and strike levers work. Note that the larger of the chime cams is actually two cams: one on the front to ensure that the pin drum turns through the requisite number of turns to play the tune, and the other, which is next to the plate and tough to see, contains a single flat spot that prevents the one-hour chime (and strike) from sounding unless the minute hand is at the 12.

    M Kinsler
     
  29. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    An easy way to set the chime is to take off the chime counting cam (right front) and let the chime run until it stops. Put the cam on at the 3/4 hour mark, and tighten it down. Then set the chime wheel (back plate) until you get descending scale that marks the end of the 3/4 chime (and the full 1/4 chime). That should put the chime side issue to bed. When you put the cam in place, be sure to lift that lever so it can fall properly into the back slot.
     
  30. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    #30 Dave T, May 30, 2018
    Last edited: May 30, 2018
    If we go back to my post #21, I think I have answered this question, which most likely is why I can't get anything else aligned?
    As I rotate the center cam, the lifting piece for the quarter hour does not come up high enough to release the locking plate. Looks like that arm will need a new pin, but I don't know what a good one looks like. Mine is worn off from nothing on one side to about 2+mm on the other at a 45° angle.

    Update on this post. I found a 1051 movement here with the same part and the wear on the pin looks exactly like the 453 I'm working on here. So, now I don't know why it doesn't lift high enough for the quarter hour yet.
     
  31. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    That steel pin is supposed to be short and at a 45 degree angle. It's made that way so it can spring back towards the front plate a bit. This allows the hands to be set backwards. The short angled pin will force itself behind the snail at 12 without damageing anything.
    If you need more lift, spread the little wishbone shaped chime flirt open a bit. You want enough lift to raise the automatic reset stop lever about 1mm higher than the stop pin. IOW, when the chime releases, the stop lever should continue to raise 1 more mm.
    Willie X
     
  32. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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  33. claussclocks

    claussclocks Registered User
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    #33 claussclocks, May 30, 2018
    Last edited: May 30, 2018
    Is this what you are talking about? Should be about 3mm for 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 hour and 4mm for the hour.
    Or is it the Chime Release Lever?

    More often than not what happens here is the cam is pressed too far down on the shaft and the lever is riding over the point of the cam or the arm has been bent out a little and is not catching the points of the chime release cam.

    Chime Release Cam.jpg Chime Release lever - Front.jpg Chime Release Lever - Back.jpg
     
  34. claussclocks

    claussclocks Registered User
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    There is also a small spring that goes around the upper shaft portion of the chime release arm and insures that it is pushed down after it activates the chime train. Be sure it is still there and on the bottom side of the rack pin.
     
  35. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    I've been reading all of the helpful posts here more than once. I have also printed the Chime Clock Basics, and read and studied it over and over. In fact I think I'll stick it in my Bible between John and Acts, and call it the Gospel according to Bangster! :) It was very well written and thorough.
    I've tried and tried to adjust the locking plate in the proper position at 3/4 after the hour.
    I'm thinking the problem might originate with the chime arms. They all sit too close to the chime rods and hit the rods too hard. I can't understand why this would be. I don't see any way they could have gotten out of adjustment, as far as clearance between the strike arms and the rods.
    And without assisting the (heaviest) weight on that train the train won't move or moves very sluggishly. I've also noticed substantial wear on the locking pallet arbor, and maybe that's why I thought the lifting lever wasn't raising high enough. Might be too much play in the locking pallet?
    I'm now inclined to tear it down and do some bushing work and re-assemble and start over.
    Right now it's pretty much the same as when I started. It will not go into warning on any of the quarter hours, and when finally the locking plate engages it runs through all four quarters of chime, but it never strikes the hour.
    I wish I could be more clear at describing what's going on. And I do appreciate the help and patience from all of you.
     
  36. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    Yes, worn bushings are common on both the chime locking disk arbor and the chime sequence cam arbor. If the disk will wiggle latterly, the bushings are bad. It doesn't matter what quarter is being chimed, the pin riding on the chime sequence cam should always be just short of starting up the ramp when the chime stops, about 1/2 mm from starting up the ramp is good.
    Note, when you bush these extended arbor/pivots use a slightly overlength bushing. This will run for a good while. If you want it to run for a long time the wheel/arbor needs to be replaced, same with the minute hand shaft and the strike gathering pallet. Repairing an old Hermle is a good exercise in chasing rabbits. Or, maybe more like the old arcade game Wack-a-Mole`.
    Willie X
     
  37. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    If you've already done substantial bushing of the chime train, inspect everything carefully to make sure that none of the bushings are too tight. Like, everything should rattle, and with the plates parallel to the surface of the Earth, you should be able to slightly pick up each wheel and have it decisively drop when you let it go.

    You also may have a bent pivot somewhere, and you can see these if you operate the train while looking carefully down each pivot hole.

    M Kinsler
     
  38. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    I'm going to tear this 451 down and do some bushing work, but the chime hammer position has me wondering why they don't stand up properly? Here's a picture of my clock and one sold recently. The hammers should be in a more upright position. I'm sure I have the springs attached properly. What is wrong? When in the case the hammers rest against the chimes, and would drop far beyond if the rods didn't stop them.
    Hermle 451 chime question.jpg
     
  39. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Maybe I'm just seeing a lot of wear on the hammer tails, but are they all worn evenly? I haven't made any adjustments to them yet. I guess I could just bend each arm into a more upright position?
    Here's a video I found:
    But I'm not going to attempt that!
     
  40. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    If they rise and fall properly, you may just have to bend them a bit.
    (Dave beat me to it)
     
  41. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    The hammer assembly looks like it might have been assembled incorrectly. The correct way is somewhat counter-intuitive, because the stopping springs, which are the teeth of that spring-steel comb, are supposed to be tucked behind one of the long support shafts. As I recall there's a certain amount of effort involved in getting them into the right place.

    Check this before you bend the hammer shafts.
     
  42. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    That's what I kept thinking, and obviously you are right, but I still don't know how it could be put together incorrectly. Here's a picture before I tore it down, which does show the hammers in the correct position! Now I'm scratching my head, (again).
    Hermle 451 chime question 1.jpg
     
  43. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    I have put it back together and think I see what might be the problem, which is largely contributing to why it strikes so slow and requires extra help for the weight that drives it.
    The teeth on the pinwheel only connect the tips on the hammer arm at the tip. I think it's worn out!
    And I don't see but one way to put it together. If there was more material on the arm, the hammers would rest at a higher position. Consequently it takes a lot of force to pull each hammer up as it does not ride up the cam as it should.

    Does this sound correct?
     
  44. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    I think you've hit the nail on the head. I'm about ready to ditch this project. See previous post.
     
  45. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    You da man! I finally got this through my thick head. Even found a before teardown picture that shows proper assembly. You're right it doesn't go together real easy!
    Works great now. I think this problem was largely contributing to why I couldn't adjust the locking plate. Maybe I've finally found a starting point.
    Here's how it should look, (including some bushings marked for replacement). Now I'm ready to proceed.
    Hermle 451 chime question 4.jpg Hermle 451 chime question 3.jpg
     
  46. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    It's possible, but I have never run into a situation like that. I have, however, assembled hammer assemblies incorrectly on several occasions, which is why I try not to take them apart in the first place. Have another look at the flat piece of spring steel, which is not visible in the picture you've posted.

    Don't give up. Put the thing aside for a while.

    M Kinsler
     
  47. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Mark, See my previous post, you and I were evidently posting at the same time. Chime assembly corrected! Now I'll proceed with the bushings and change that washer that I installed wrong. I've still got one other small brass washer that I don't know where it goes.
    About 5mm outside diameter and 3mm inside.
     
  48. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

    Aug 17, 2014
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    Good. These clocks are generally fairly straightforward in operation, but as time went on they got a bit weirder and there are some aspects that don't follow quite as logically as we might wish. After a while you will become familiar with the tricks they do.

    Mark Kinsler
     
  49. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    #49 Dave T, Jun 1, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2018
    Well guys, I've got another confession to make. When I tore this clock down I found that I'd switched the winding arbors for the chime and strike. No wonder I couldn't get it to do anything!! I did have sense enough to mark them when I tore it down the first time and saw that C on the strike side when I opened it up again.

    These arbors wind in opposite direction!

    I would like to know where this small screw belongs.
    Hermle 451 29.jpg
     
  50. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    I switched the chime and strike barrels on a clock not long ago. Didn't work so well, and it took me far too long to figure out why.
     

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