Help Hermle 1161 querry....

[Clockinit]

Hello and Good Day to All!! I have a question/questions regarding an Hermle 1161 movement out of a Ridgeway clock...it is a cable driven triple chime unit. The clock runs well, keeps good time, and the strike train is not sluggish at all. I did 3 bushings on that train. I also did 2 bushings on the chime train, but the chimes seem to slow at some points and become 'jerky' when going thru some sequences on the Whittington and St Michaels melodies....The Westminster sequences on all quarters seem steady throughout ALL sequences, on ALL the quarter hours. I am assuming that there is more power draw on the train with the 8 note melodies vs the 4 note melodies. Am I correct? When I apply a little pressure, not much, on the weight the sequences are fluid and not jerky. So, to me, logic does say that there is possibly a bent pivot? I disassembled twice and checked possible culprits. I even went thru the motion of 'correcting' any pivot that I perceived of being bent, even though it probably wasn't....All the hammers are lined up properly with the chime drum pins..What other source of power grab should I look for..Do the cams on the drum itself get loose? Could it be a larger pivot got bent when prying off the front cams? Or even the rear wheel when removing that from the back plate.?? Could levers be getting hung up? they seem to be moving OK...Which brings me to another set of questions...How do you know for sure if those smaller pivots are, or aren't bent.Is there a tool or method of checking/repairing to know that they are correct?...other than visual...?
Well I've rambled on and am sure I've gone over my time limit.....SO, any feedback on ANY of these questions would be greatly appreciated.

Best,
Bob

 

[Willie X]

Check the weight's weight. Should be 9.9 pounds and make sure the plastic cable guard is loose, not tight against the cable. It should free to rattle around a bit.

Most of the time, the trouble from wear is at C-3 and C-4. But it can often be elsewhere. It takes good magnification to check the upper pivots.

A bent pivot should be obvious once you see it. Just look at the pivot tips as they turn quickly. Any wobble indicates a bent one. You don't have to "straighten" any that aren't bent.

Also, check your new bushings for proper clearance and you need to make a slight 45° chamfer on the inside edge of all new bushings.

To test, start and stop the chime fly repeatedly, as the train runs. It should always start quickly, no matter what position the hammers are in.

Also, check the fly pinion and the wheel that drives it. A slight build up of old oil can cause your problem. This pair should have fine teeth. The parts with less fine teeth go on the strike side.

Willie X

 

[Clockinit]

Thanks Willie!! All good stuff...I will go thru that whole check list.... Your last tip was a question I had asked myself just last week.... I thought I had messed up and mixed up the fly's... I'll double check, now that you have me 2nd guessin' myself...again!

Thanks,
Bob

 

[JimmyOz]

If it is running the Westminster okay and not great on the other two, check the tune selection arm is moving the barrel to the right position.

 

[Clockinit]

If it is running the Westminster okay and not great on the other two, check the tune selection arm is moving the barrel to the right position.

Jimmy Oz ...I did check that. It was my first thought. They were slightly askew...I adjusted them to be more directly on center, Alas, to no avail...
Thanks for the input....

Bob

 

[Clockinit]

Check the weight's weight. Should be 9.9 pounds and make sure the plastic cable guard is loose, not tight against the cable. It should free to rattle around a bit.

Most of the time, the trouble from wear is at C-3 and C-4. But it can often be elsewhere. It takes good magnification to check the upper pivots.

A bent pivot should be obvious once you see it. Just look at the pivot tips as they turn quickly. Any wobble indicates a bent one. You don't have to "straighten" any that aren't bent.

Also, check your new bushings for proper clearance and you need to make a slight 45° chamfer on the inside edge of all new bushings.

To test, start and stop the chime fly repeatedly, as the train runs. It should always start quickly, no matter what position the hammers are in.

Also, check the fly pinion and the wheel that drives it. A slight build up of old oil can cause your problem. This pair should have fine teeth. The parts with less fine teeth go on the strike side.

Willie X

Willie...If by checking the fly while the train is in motion and I notice a slowing down of the train, what would this probably indicate? I'm guessing a bent pivot? or maybe not enough clearance on the new bushing? any other possibilities?

Bob

 

[wow]

It sounds like a power problem in the chime train. Could be a new bushing that is too tight or not centered and causing the wheels and pinions to have meshing problems. Or…. A missed sloppy bushing that needs to be bushed, Or…A barrel or cap that needs bushing. Or….A bent pivot. Or….A weak mainspring. Let down mainspring and rock it back and forth watching every pivot under magnification for slop and for straightness. If you replace bushings, be sure they are centered. You probably have already done all of these but this is what I do in cases like yours. Good luck.
Will

 

[tom427cid]

It sounds like a power problem in the chime train. Could be a new bushing that is too tight or not centered and causing the wheels and pinions to have meshing problems. Or…. A missed sloppy bushing that needs to be bushed, Or…A barrel or cap that needs bushing. Or….A bent pivot. Or….A weak mainspring. Let down mainspring and rock it back and forth watching every pivot under magnification for slop and for straightness. If you replace bushings, be sure they are centered. You probably have already done all of these but this is what I do in cases like yours. Good luck.
Will

 

[tom427cid]

I think on an 1161 with a 9.9 lb weight you might have some difficulty finding a mainspring........ On the other hand I would inspect the pins on the chime drum and the lift cams on the hammers. If when you serviced the movement you disassembled the hammers from the shaft one of them might be in a different location and causing a slight hang up.

hope this helps, tom

 

[wow]

I think on an 1161 with a 9.9 lb weight you might have some difficulty finding a mainspring........ On the other hand I would inspect the pins on the chime drum and the lift cams on the hammers. If when you serviced the movement you disassembled the hammers from the shaft one of them might be in a different location and causing a slight hang up.

hope this helps, tom

Tom, you got me on that one. Obviously I wasn’t thinking clearly. Everything I said still applies except for the mainsprings and barrels. Main wheel pivots need to be checked.
Will

 

[NEW65]

Yes, what Willie said, always do C3 and C4! I have seen so many hermle movements fail and the cause has been C3 and /or C4 (simple test, just push on the cams. )
Even when things look good I always re bush these!
Also check the cable wheel pivots for play.
Good luck

 

[Clockinit]

Thanks Guys!! All GOOD Stuff...I'm in the process of checking off all these things, one by one...I have done most of them, save a couple. When I get them checked off the list, I'll double check and then get 'er back on the stand....

Thanks,
Bob

 

[Clockinit]

Problem solved...I I did several things all at the same time as I wanted this to be the last time I disassemble the movement. So I'm not exactly sure what the exact issue was.... I had bushed C3 front and back, so I took a broach to both holes and then a smoothing broach. I bushed C4 front and back. .I repolished all pivots on the train. I unwound the cable on the drum and re wound it to make sure there was no slack. I made sure the plastic cover on the cable drum was moving freely. I checked the pinions on all wheels for built up / residual debris... The pins on the chime drum and the hammer lift cams appeared to be good.. I just made sure they were all lining up, as they should.. As stated above..the clock is now doing as it should... Just needed to get back to the basics and check all my work again..
Guys...Thanks for all the input ..thanks for keeping me honest...Thanks for making me think......

Best,
Bob

 

[NEW65]

Well, I have just done hermle 1161 weight driven on cables and have the exact same problem!!!!
Works really well on westminster but not so good on the other two settings! Signs of slowing down etc
I have observed that the chime stop wheel (with the movement weighted), feels loose when pushed inwards , with more end play than the other gears. But as I say westminster chime is fine?!
I normally check for foreign bodies in the works before I do anything else but couldn’t see anything obvious.
I notice Willie mentioned a 9.9lb weight for the chime train- I will check this out tomorrow.
Thanks