Hermle 1161-853 Issues

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by tkbailey, Nov 8, 2019.

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  1. tkbailey

    tkbailey Registered User

    Nov 7, 2019
    15
    0
    1
    Male
    Columbus, Ohio
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I inherited a project clock. My late father in law (back in the 80s) started building a grandfather clock. I need to finish the case, but the clock sort of has me stumped.

    As the title states, this is a Hermle 1161-853. I have it all set up in the case and the tick tock is dialed in and working. I still need to figure out how to get the hour/minute hands where they need to be, but that should be easy enough.

    My main issue is that the chimes don't seem to work. Upon poking around, I noticed that the lever (sorry, not up to speed on the terminology) seems to jam up on the snail. It looks to me like the lever should ride up the snail when it comes to the highest point. Instead, the lever jams behind the snail and I think that is what is gumming up the works. I'll clarify, I don't have a chime rod, and I've spent some time watching this thing and if I reset the lever on the snail the hammers will move sometimes. So, I think the issue (or at least the first issue) is to figure out how to fix that hangup. While this is an old clock, I'm not sure it was ever used.

    Second issue...it needs cleaned. Gunk and cobwebs and such. I've watched a few long videos on disassembly and cleaning and it seems that to remove the cable barrels, I need to let down the spring tension. I can't seem to find a step by step, but it seems like it would be:

    1. Remove the weights
    2. Use a let down tool
    3. Seems like there is probably something behind the winding post I need to flip
    4. Slowly release the tension

    I have a few questions about this:

    1. All the let down tools are pretty expensive, and some of the home made ones seem to fit a key. I have a pulley lever "thing" for winding the clock, so...can I just use that? Seems like most of these tools are just trying to give you a little more leverage. I'm not sure how much force I need to contend with.

    2. Am I correct on this model, that there is a lever behind the front plate that I probably just need to flip with a wooden skewer or something in order to let down?

    I'm hoping if I can fix the issue with the snail and give it a good cleaning it will be in good working order. Hopefully...

    Thanks in advance!

    Screen Shot 2019-11-08 at 12.19.07 AM.png
     
  2. JimmyOz

    JimmyOz Registered User

    Feb 21, 2008
    164
    15
    18
    Male
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    First, this is a weight driven clock, there is not need to let down anything as it has no springs. It is not to clear in the photo, however the strike leaver/rack looks to be behind the snail. The snail is the thing that looks like a snails shell right in the middle of the clock where you attach the hour hand, the leaver/rack is the one with a jagged edge to it.
    Try to lift the jagged edge one up (brass) and rest it on the stop leaver (steel) and then push the snail back, it should now be in the right place, put the minute hand on left of the 6 and below the 9 and screw the nut on to hold it there. Put the weights back on, the heavest to the right as you face the clock. It is about half way through the half hour chime, let it finish. Now move the minute hand to the 3/4 hour (9) and let it chime till it finishes. now take it to the hour and It should do the hour chime and you will see the jagged teeth one fall (strike rack) and it should strike the hours.

    Now if that did not work take a few more photos of the movement from the front and back and both sides, take the minute hand off before you take the photos.
     
  3. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

    Feb 9, 2008
    11,726
    606
    113
    If you are trying to pull off the cables, you would remove the weights and press the tail end of the click inward. The tail of the click has a small notch made for this purpous. While holding the tail of the click in, pull the cable off with your free hand.

    I'm not sure why you want to do this but it is usually done to get the cable straight on the drum. It takes an extra couple of steps to actually remove the cable/s.

    WIllie X
     
  4. tkbailey

    tkbailey Registered User

    Nov 7, 2019
    15
    0
    1
    Male
    Columbus, Ohio
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Ah...didn't realize you didn't need to let down a weight driven clock. Thanks. The reason I was asking about this was because I was going to take the clock apart to clean it.

    Jimmy, to answer your question, yes, the lever was caught up behind the snail. For normal operation, is this supposed to ride up the side of the snail, or should it ratchet up on the teeth and then drop onto the snail?

    I took a few more pictures this morning. This thing has been running for a few days now. It doesn't seem that the quarter hour cam has moved at all. The left and right weights never drop either. I do have the chime lever

    I kind of figured the next step in troubleshooting would be to take this apart and clean it.

    Ironically, I bought another one of these clocks at a garage sale, just so I could study on how this is supposed to work. Unfortunately, the chimes don't work on that clock either. :emoji_unamused:
     
  5. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 19, 2005
    40,246
    622
    113
    Male
    Self employed interpreter/clock repairer
    Iowa
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    You don't absolutely have to let it down. You can take off the weights, and deal with the cables when you disassemble it. But it's good to have the weights on it when you wind it back up.
     
  6. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 4, 2008
    3,670
    345
    83
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Removing the weights is the equivalent to letting down mainsprings in a spring-driven clock. The important thing is to remove all power from a movement before taking it apart.

    Uhralt
     
  7. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

    Feb 9, 2008
    11,726
    606
    113
    The most common cause of a 'no chime' condition in these movements is wear at the front 3rd and 4th arbor pivots. In clock speak this is C3F and C4F.

    It's easy to check this with the movement in the case. Remove the weight and apply a strong force, back and forth, at the 2nd wheel. If the 4th arbor jumps up and down, thar's yer problem.

    Alternately, if the movement is out of the case, just wiggle the two chime control disc at the right side of the front plate.
    The smaller one (to the left) is the chime stop disc and rides on the extended 4th arbor pivot. The larger one (to the right) is the chime sequence disc and rides on the extended 3rd arbor pivot. Any wiggle indicates needed bushing work.

    Another common chime stopper is foreign matter, or caked oil, in the chime fly pinion and the wheel that drives it. A cut off flux brush and a bit of your favorite (non lacquer disolving) solvent will fix this problem. On a few you may have to bring out the ole extra fine pointed peg wood though.

    WIllie X
     
  8. tkbailey

    tkbailey Registered User

    Nov 7, 2019
    15
    0
    1
    Male
    Columbus, Ohio
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Thanks.

    Not sure how to figure out which is the 2nd wheel or 3rd pivot. You count down from the top of the movement?

    Is isopropyl alcohol and a toothbrush/cotton swap fine for cleaning these? I plan to take all the gears out and clean each piece individually. There is definitely some gunk in here. I don't think the movement was ever used, so I'm not too concerned about wear, but I'll check each pivot and such as I move through the cleaning process.
     
  9. tkbailey

    tkbailey Registered User

    Nov 7, 2019
    15
    0
    1
    Male
    Columbus, Ohio
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Also, is there any guide out there that indicates what the positioning of some of these cams and snails are? For example, on the snail, is the widest part 12 o'clock, 1 o'clock, etc? I think I have the same question for the chime cam.
     
  10. Dick Feldman

    Dick Feldman Registered User

    Sep 1, 2000
    2,081
    68
    48
    Colorado, usa
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Some good reading for you is the Hermle Service Manual
    The following link is to a PDF off that manual.
    Hermle Service Manual
    If all of that does not make sense, you will at least have a grasp of the vocabulary and will have some pictures.
    There is little sense in dismantling a movement of unknown origins till it can be determined that the thing will be serviceable and reliable. Heed Willie’s advice before continuing.
    If/when you reassemble the movement, you will have to reset the stop works. That is a mechanism to keep the drive weights from bumping into the seat board in the fully wound position and to keep those from resting on the bottom of the case. It is a mechanism that has two gears, one long tooth and one shallow valley on each of the gears. Setting that up is explained in the service manual mentioned above.
    Nobody has mentioned it thus far, but that is not a good movement to tackle for a beginner. You might want to consult your local clock repair person for help.
    Your profile does not tell us where you live.
    Welcome to the message board,
    Best Regards,
    Dick
     
  11. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 19, 2005
    40,246
    622
    113
    Male
    Self employed interpreter/clock repairer
    Iowa
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    But to answer your question, the gears are numbered from the bottom up, with the main wheel (which holds a spring, cable or chain) being #1.
     
  12. Dick Feldman

    Dick Feldman Registered User

    Sep 1, 2000
    2,081
    68
    48
    Colorado, usa
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Another suggestion is to hit your local library and read up on what you can find on clock repair.
    Dick
    Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him how to fish and you feed him for his life time. — Italian proverb.
     
  13. tkbailey

    tkbailey Registered User

    Nov 7, 2019
    15
    0
    1
    Male
    Columbus, Ohio
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Do you teach someone to fish by telling them to call a fisherman or go read a book on fishing?

    I still have a few questions about how the snail is supposed to operate, and what the positioning of the snail and cam mean in relationships to time. I guess I'll figure it out.

    Sorry, just disappointed. This seemed like THE group of people to learn from, but talking over someone's head, ignoring followup questions, and directing them to the library.... what is the purpose of this forum?
     
  14. Dick Feldman

    Dick Feldman Registered User

    Sep 1, 2000
    2,081
    68
    48
    Colorado, usa
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    It seems you are into that project well beyond your capabilities. Want seldom is a good substitute for knowledge and experience.
    If your intent is to repair one clock, one which is way beyond your scope, maybe it would be good advice to contact your local clock repair person.
    Going to a library and reading is still a viable solution if you are willing to put out some effort.
    Have you looked at the Hermle Service Manuel? It is a valuable tool.
    That book will answer your questions as well as some you have not thought of yet.
    From my perspective it sounds like you want to eat fish but do not want to learn how to catch them.
    D
     
  15. JimmyOz

    JimmyOz Registered User

    Feb 21, 2008
    164
    15
    18
    Male
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Okay I will answer these two questions,
    The snail (strike), the widest part is 1 and the narrowest is 12, on the chime side the shortest distance is 4 chimes and the longest distance is 16 chimes and also sets the strike in motion when finished the chime.
    You said that the lever/rack was behind the snail before in the post, if you have now got it to sit ontop of the snail (and nobody has messed with it) it should be in the right spot to work without anything else needed to be done to it.
    Post a few more photos of how it looks now without the hands on it as if nothing is wrong with the pivots it should work.
     
  16. tkbailey

    tkbailey Registered User

    Nov 7, 2019
    15
    0
    1
    Male
    Columbus, Ohio
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Thanks Jimmy. I've set previously set the lever/rack to its highest setting, and it never drops down. This thing has been sitting since the 80s when it was new, and I think all the oil is gummed up.

    Dick, I've previously read the Hermle Manual, and it doesn't answer any of the questions I have posted here. If you disagree, please post the page numbers. I understand how the stop works functions because I read the manual, it explained it, and generally it isn't difficult to figure out how a gear with a single elongated tooth works.
     
  17. JimmyOz

    JimmyOz Registered User

    Feb 21, 2008
    164
    15
    18
    Male
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Just post the photos and then we can see more.
    I know you are frustrated as we all get when things don't work out right, however all the guys advice on here is good, so don't let it get personal.
     
  18. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

    Aug 17, 2014
    2,790
    224
    63
    Male
    Science teacher, writer
    Lancaster, Ohio, USA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    We try to do several tasks here. One is to help more experienced repairers solve some of the more difficult problems we encounter. Another is to encourage, as best we can, people who are new to this work.

    But to be at all effective in our educational mission there must be some initial work on the part of the student. That is, the new student has to watch and study enough introductory tutorials to learn some of the basic terminology of clocks, clock construction, and a bit about escapements, strike mechanisms, chime mechanisms, and perhaps even common problems encountered in keeping a mechanical clock running. Others here can make recommendations regarding tutorials.

    Now, there are dozens of tutorials available, and by their very nature they're typically neither very clear nor very consistent. That's because there are a zillion different sorts of clocks out there. Questions thus arise, and that's where forums like ours come in handy. For example, terminology varies between the UK, the Continent, and the US, so we discuss that sort of thing.

    I would also note that while our more active posters here are craftsmen of the highest order, we work with very limited graphics capacity here, and much needs to be explained verbally, which is not easy.

    To answer the original question: the snail determines how many times the clock will strike for a given position of the hour hand. There's no brief way to describe the operation of a rack-and-snail strike mechanism, but there are several animations available on the Web which do a good job, and you should look at these.

    M Kinsler
     
  19. JimmyOz

    JimmyOz Registered User

    Feb 21, 2008
    164
    15
    18
    Male
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Here is a video that explains the sequence of how your chime and strike work, it is a spring driven movement, however the principal is the exact same as yours.

     
  20. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

    Aug 17, 2014
    2,790
    224
    63
    Male
    Science teacher, writer
    Lancaster, Ohio, USA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    There must be something in the water besides fish.

    The Hermle manual, which as I recall is essentially an exploded view with a parts list, would not be of much use unless the student has completed the required pre-requisites, whether through shop experience or study.

    M Kinsler
     
  21. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

    Feb 9, 2008
    11,726
    606
    113
    tk,

    Yep ... someone with average mechanical abilities would take at least 5 years working every day as an apprentice to learn this trade. This would assume they had an intense interest in reading all the clasic books, watching videos, studing catalogs, etc.

    What this list is very good at is answering a specific question.

    So, if you can pose a single specific question (or problem) with good descriptions and photos, you will get an answer buy don't expect it to happen instantly. It may take several days (or weeks) and require many post. The process takes a lot of patience from all parties.

    My 2, WIllie X
     
  22. tkbailey

    tkbailey Registered User

    Nov 7, 2019
    15
    0
    1
    Male
    Columbus, Ohio
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Thanks for that video Jimmy. That's kind of what I figured. Seems like the internal gearing is just weight driven, and the motion works on the front sort of controls the operations between the three trains via cams and levers.

    I ended up fiddling with some of the gears to see where they might be getting hung up and then sort of cleaned those spots out with a toothpick. Not ideal, but I was able to pull out some gunk from some of the gears about the size of a ball point pen bearing. The chime train is running, although, rather slowly. I think it took 10 minutes to go through the hour chimes.

    Excited for my cleaning supplies to get here so I can pull this thing apart and get rid of all that gunk. I found some lengthy videos on YouTube on disassembling and cleaning these. Of course, on those videos the ammonia solution ate up the lacquer on the face plates and he scratched references into the brass. I don't plan on doing that.

    I think I have two questions at this point:

    1. What's a good cleaning solution for the lacquered plates? Just some rubbing alcohol? Seems like ammonia just makes things worse.

    2. The little flies at the top of the chime trains...are those just to add some air resistance when chimes are running?

    I attached a few photos just so everyone can see what I'm dealing with. As you can see, the movement is dirty. It was still in the original box from 1987, which is why I don't think wear is an issue. My father in law passed, so I'm working on finishing this for my mother in law. Hopefully for Christmas.

    Still need to cut a few pieces of wood to finish the case, order some glass, and I'm waiting for the chime rods to be delivered.

    I guess that's all assuming I don't completely mess up the assembly of this movement. If anyone has any tips there...I'll take my time, take pictures, and I have some styrofoam sheets to peg things in while I clean them one by one. Probably take some video too.

    Screen Shot 2019-11-10 at 1.01.47 AM.png Screen Shot 2019-11-10 at 12.41.23 AM.png Screen Shot 2019-11-10 at 12.41.41 AM.png
     
  23. tkbailey

    tkbailey Registered User

    Nov 7, 2019
    15
    0
    1
    Male
    Columbus, Ohio
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Oh yeah...the movement came with some orange clips around the cable housings. I figured those were just for shipping, so I pulled them off. Was that a mistake? If so, what is the purpose of those? Extra tension on the plastic housing around the cables?
     
  24. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

    Aug 17, 2014
    2,790
    224
    63
    Male
    Science teacher, writer
    Lancaster, Ohio, USA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    You'd be surprised at how much the air resistance from the flies affects the speed of the chime and strike. Note that the fly slips on its shaft. It is meant to do that, so leave it alone.

    As for cleaning solvent, any effective de-greaser is generally suitable, but isopropyl alcohol isn't the most effective. In this case, we're dealing with whatever odd lubricant Hermle chose to use on this clock. My recollection is that the stuff was very expensive, warranted forever, and the warranty was voided if you used anything else. It also turned into an exceptionally sticky adhesive within a few years, which is why I use either Nye oil or Mobil1 0-20 synthetic.

    On levers like the rack, however, the proper lubricant is none. Pull the lever off and clean the pivot out with Walmart carburetor cleaner--the flammable, non-California-approved version containing acetone and tolulene. This will dry almost instantly, likely removing some lacquer in the process, but it'll ensure that the lever will drop nicely forever, or until some patriot decides to lubricate the lever pivot.
     
  25. JimmyOz

    JimmyOz Registered User

    Feb 21, 2008
    164
    15
    18
    Male
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    TK, I take it this is your 1st clock, if so I would not recommend you take it apart, you will lose all the settings and man it would be a hard task to inform you how to get it all working right using posts. By the sounds of it the movement has not been used much so I think it would be in workable order. What Kinsler33 suggested to use I don't know them being in Australia, however go with that, use a 10mm art brush and work it fluid into all the pivot holes, levers and anywhere friction would be present. I would then run the whole movement under warm to hot water (make sure the cables have been let down) use a hair dryer to dry the whole movement, use clock oil on all the pivots also between the hammers pivot. set it up and see how it runs. If you still have issues we can deal with that later as I think the whole movement was just gunked up and should work.
     
  26. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

    Aug 17, 2014
    2,790
    224
    63
    Male
    Science teacher, writer
    Lancaster, Ohio, USA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    It's interesting. Just lately we've had two--perhaps more--posters working on their first clocks, both with the expectation that factory-approved spare parts and step-by-step shop manuals would be available for the work.

    I've repaired lots of things throughout my misspent life, generally by removing cover plates and then enough obvious parts to get myself into a lot of trouble, after which I head to the library or Internet to solve the problems I've created. But I've always wondered: if you were careful and had the appropriate tools, would there be enough factory/aftermarket help to rebuild, say, a car's automatic transmission? (The closest I've come has been a 4-speed motorcycle transmission, and that went okay, but still.)

    M Kinsler
     
  27. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 19, 2005
    40,246
    622
    113
    Male
    Self employed interpreter/clock repairer
    Iowa
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I didn't read back through this whole thread, but another solution to your dilemma, tk, is a new movement. They are still available, and won't break the bank. Check with Mark Butterworth for a price.
     
  28. tkbailey

    tkbailey Registered User

    Nov 7, 2019
    15
    0
    1
    Male
    Columbus, Ohio
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Kinsler, yes, I think people have grown accustomed to getting information easily on the internet. For example, a few years ago I restored a 1980 Datsun. I'm not a mechanic, and have never restored a car, but I was able to do all this in a couple months. Car hadn't run in 20+ years. Was easy to find a service manual with diagrams, explanations, troubleshooting steps, etc. Fixed it up, and it drove like new.

    That's probably what frustrates people about clocks. Take this Hermle movement. Seems like this movement has been in constant product (probably without change) for many years. And it probably shares functional similarities with many movements out there. But it's pretty difficult to even find a clear exploded parts diagram, and as Jimmy pointed out, just taking apart this movement you may lose settings that were important and not obvious, with no real documentation to help you other than the kind folks who dedicate their time to forums like this. Obviously, lack of documentation and parts isn't the fault of anyone on this forum. But it does create a barrier for those interested in starting in the hobby.

    Of course, I'm not advocating for folks that just want you to solve all their problems. If someone just wants an easy fix, that is what paid professionals are for.

    My interest here is understanding how it works, as that is the fun part. I know I could pay someone to fix it, or buy a new movement, but that's nothing to be proud of. If that's the solution, I'd just throw all this stuff in the trash. Having a Grandfather clock just means you have the money to buy one. Building a grandfather clock is something more.

    I guess that's what I don't understand about this forum. If you posted a computer problem into a forum, and they said, "buy a new computer" or "go read a book" or "it's too complicated for you to figure out" and ignored specific basic questions about how the computer operates...what would you think? Is a clock more difficult to understand than a car, or computer?

    I would hope any novice attempting to dismantle a movement would appreciate a few basic facts:

    1. Paid professionals exist
    2. You can buy a new movement
    3. If you screw it up, you can't demand free help via a forum. People may offer help, but you are at their mercy.
    4. Be thankful to the people who do help, because they are under no obligation to do so.

    That's why I pretty much disregard discouraging comments and will proceed with dismantling, cleaning, and re-assembly. It's more about the journey than the destination. Positive comments and tips are very very welcome though!

    And please, don't take this as a personal attack. I appreciate everyone that has taken the time to respond. I'm just trying to give some honest feedback from the perspective of a newbie.
     
  29. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Apr 11, 2002
    21,452
    173
    63
    I work at the Veritas Tools machine shop.
    Nepean, Ontario, Canada
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Dish soap will clean a clock movement, might not be shiny but will be clean, and there are no risks and hazards from using it. I do recomend and i still do it as i take lots of pictures when i take a clock apart. Just a bit of advice that i have to share.
     
  30. tracerjack

    tracerjack Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jun 6, 2016
    775
    46
    28
    Female
    Lodi, CA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I don’t see how it would be possible for this forum to teach a newbie what they need to know in order to fix a complicated movement, which is the impression I got from the original post. And it appears from the answers, that was the impression others got as well. I think any novice attempting to dismantle a movement would first read up on the subject. which would be invaluable in helping them decide if they should use the services of a professional, buy a new movement, prevent them from screwing up, and appreciate the tremendous help this forum provides. Fortunately, most here also disregard misunderstandings, disparaging or discouraging remarks. When the OP is ready with the next question, I know help will be offered.
     
  31. JimmyOz

    JimmyOz Registered User

    Feb 21, 2008
    164
    15
    18
    Male
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Nobody is trying to discourage you, they all started somewhere, however I bet they all started with something a lot easier than what you are attempting.

    If you really want to learn I am all for that ,however start on a time only, they are easy, take it apart do all that is needed put it back together, then do a time and strike, same as before, then to a Westminster chime, then you have worked out how the 'time' train works, how the 'strike' train works and how the 'chime' train works. All the stuff ups have been done and you worked out how to fix them, now do your grandfather movement.
    Anyway if you want to jump into the deep end there are enough life guards around here to save you.

    All of the above said, I still think with a good clean while it is still together and the fact that the clock has not had much work to do, that would be all that is needed.
     
  32. bangster

    bangster Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 1, 2005
    19,091
    293
    83
    utah
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
  33. tkbailey

    tkbailey Registered User

    Nov 7, 2019
    15
    0
    1
    Male
    Columbus, Ohio
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Just wanted to post an update. I carefully disassembled everything, cleaned it, and put it back together. The first attempt...well, it went ok. I bent one of the pivots. I tried to fix it with needle nose pliers, but when I assembled everything the right train was all jammed up. So...had to take it apart and fix the bend. It's running pretty decently now:

    Still gets bogged a little here and there, but I think that's due to some corrosion on the cables. Or maybe the wrong weights. I weighed them on a kitchen scale and they were off a bit. I snagged the weights from another clock I bought that is a similar movement. Any thoughts on whether I should buy new weights or replace the cables/barrels?

    Weights are kind of expensive (it was cheaper to buy a used clock), but...curious to hear thoughts.

    And yes, I know the settings are all out of whack, but I'd like to get this running properly before I deal with that.
     
  34. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 19, 2005
    40,246
    622
    113
    Male
    Self employed interpreter/clock repairer
    Iowa
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Heavy weight on the right. If you adjust the stop pin you'll like the chime side better.
     
  35. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

    Feb 9, 2008
    11,726
    606
    113
    "Off a bit", could you clarity. Most weights can be altered by changing or adjusting the filler/s. Willie X
     
  36. Dick Feldman

    Dick Feldman Registered User

    Sep 1, 2000
    2,081
    68
    48
    Colorado, usa
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Rusty cables will unlikely make a clock unreliable. Because they are unsightly does not make them ineffective.
    Look more to the original advice given on wear.
    The movement does not care if the weight is a shiny brass shell or a stone.
    If you feel you are short on power, rig up a wire or something below to carry a stone an old shoe or something else you find somewhere. Maybe try a gallon jug partially filled with water. That way you can vary the power supplied.
    The manufacturer has recommended weights for that movement. Those are probably listed in the service manual mentioned earlier. If it takes more weight than the recommendations, your problem is likely excessive friction due to wear. Until the wear is corrected, the movement will continue to be unreliable and a headache.
    A movement in good shape will run when dirty and without lubrication. A worn movement will not. Clean and oil most times proves to be futile when wear is the root issue.
    What happens in a clock movement is a chain of events and it only takes one part of the equation to make a clock movement stop. Many times, inexperienced clock repair people will introduce an additional factor. That will make two reasons why the clock will not be dependable. A second attempt will introduce a third factor. Three things wrong with a clock movement are three times as difficult to solve.
    Too often, "try this" will be the next step when proper trouble shooting would solve the first, second and third problems.
    If you refuse to acknowledge the basic facts, you will finally succumb and give up the project. That prediction comes from many years of experience. Some people are just more resilient.

    Best

    Dick
     
  37. tkbailey

    tkbailey Registered User

    Nov 7, 2019
    15
    0
    1
    Male
    Columbus, Ohio
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Eh, I think I found the issue. Always seemed to hang when the third and fourth hammers were supposed to play. Looks like they were just smooshed against each other. I separated them a little bit and things seem to be running properly.



    I'm sure some of the chime settings/timing is off, but I'll dig into that once I get the chime rods installed. Should be delivered today. Still need to cut out the wood pieces for that.
     
  38. JimmyOz

    JimmyOz Registered User

    Feb 21, 2008
    164
    15
    18
    Male
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I am not sure why the guys were telling you to add weight, if anything it is running to fast. You need to set the chime side cam, it is held on by a screw just loosen it, move it till the leaver drops (the one riding on top of the cam) into the depression, move the minute hand to set the chime going again and see if it drops and stops the chime, if so go round and do all the chimes and see if the strike kicks in, looks like it will as it wants to go. Once you get that working we can work on the sequence.
     
  39. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

    Feb 9, 2008
    11,726
    606
    113
    #38 Willie X, Nov 14, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
    Note,
    The pivot that was straightened with pliers will need to be replaced, or refinished and rebushed. It's much easier to replace it, if the correct part can be found.

    You have a large number problems with your clock. For starters search for: 'Hermle chime set-up', or 'adjusting Hermle hammer lifts', or 'slow chiming Hermle'.

    Chime weight should be 9.9#.

    Willie X
     
  40. tkbailey

    tkbailey Registered User

    Nov 7, 2019
    15
    0
    1
    Male
    Columbus, Ohio
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Ah yes, I found some good tips here: Hermle 1151-050 Hammer Adjustment

    Willie, it just occurred to me that the pliers probably chewed up the plating on the pivot. How long you think that will run as is? Days, months, years?

    I might just let it run for now. This is sort of an heirloom piece. My father in law started building it in the 80s, I'm going to finish it, and I hope to pass it on to my daughter some day.

    The movement has some corrosion on it, so even after cleaning, it still looks rough in spots. This was really just a learning thing for me. I'll buy a new movement at some point.
     
  41. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 19, 2005
    40,246
    622
    113
    Male
    Self employed interpreter/clock repairer
    Iowa
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    The locking pin cam needs to be loosened and turned so it's in position to stop the chime when the counting cam pin drops into place.
    Also, if you switch to Westminster chime it will put less load on your chime train and might give you a little better action.
    Note that changing the stop pin might also affect the length of the warning run, so check that too.
     
  42. tkbailey

    tkbailey Registered User

    Nov 7, 2019
    15
    0
    1
    Male
    Columbus, Ohio
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Did some more fiddling tonight. I rotated the minute hand to figure out where the hour mark was, and then adjusted the cam so it was in the correct valley (right before the longest run on the cam). Using the service manual I was able to figure out where the chime "tumbler" was in the sequence, and I rotated it around until I got to the start of the next sequence. I had noticed over the past few days the chimes seemed to get hung up, and I think it was due to having the barrel mid-chime with some of the hammers raised. Anyway, seems to be going well now. It runs through the 15, 30, 45, and hour chime sequences, and then counts out the hours properly. Has been running pretty well for the past couple hours.

    I have a few pieces of wood to cut still (chime board, movement board, side panels (although I'm considering making them glass so you can see the movement), door to cover the clock face...and I think this project will be done!

    Oh, and fix the stop works :p

     
  43. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

    Aug 17, 2014
    2,790
    224
    63
    Male
    Science teacher, writer
    Lancaster, Ohio, USA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Under the best of circumstances the torque that's available to run the chime train on most grandfather clocks is feeble, so you have to position the chime pinwheel so that the chime train can get a running start prior to lifting the first hammer. If it's a triple-chime clock, try to get it to chime on the Whittington or St Michael's tunes, which use all 8 hammers and are thus tougher to get through. If it'll chime with 8 hammers it'll chime on 4 hammers.

    I think I've had maybe two customers who have used anything but the Westminster chimes.

    M Kinsler
     
  44. tkbailey

    tkbailey Registered User

    Nov 7, 2019
    15
    0
    1
    Male
    Columbus, Ohio
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Ha. Ya, ironically, I'll probably keep this thing silent. I don't want to hear it ding every 15 minutes. Certainly not in the middle of the night. Dog will bark, baby will wake, wife will stab me. All this effort to fix features I won't use :)
     
  45. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

    Aug 17, 2014
    2,790
    224
    63
    Male
    Science teacher, writer
    Lancaster, Ohio, USA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    See what happens if you let it just chime. My own experience, and that of most of my customers, is that you won't notice the chiming with two hours, day or night. (Evidence Exhibit A: there have been chiming clocks for centuries, and nobody much complains.) An alarm clock will awaken you, but a grandfather clock will not.

    Mark Kinsler
     
  46. tkbailey

    tkbailey Registered User

    Nov 7, 2019
    15
    0
    1
    Male
    Columbus, Ohio
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Fair point Mr. Kinsler. I always imagine these things sounding like a giant gong, but I guess if it were annoying no one would have bought them. I know they have a silence feature, but you wouldn't want to forget and have to get out of bed to shut off the racket. I honestly can't remember the last time I heard a grandfather clock chime. Maybe never. Once I get this chime board mounted I'll be able to hear to this one sing. So close.
     
  47. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

    Aug 17, 2014
    2,790
    224
    63
    Male
    Science teacher, writer
    Lancaster, Ohio, USA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    A lot of elderly people hereabouts have grandfather clocks and like them. Problems arise when their children and grandchildren come to visit, say at Christmas. Children are in spare bedrooms, but grandkids are bedded down in sleeping bags in the living room where the grandfather clock is. Grandkids know nothing of clocks and get spooked, so their father or someone comes down and silences the clock. Trouble comes when they leave and the clock is still silenced. Sometimes the grandparents have forgotten that the clock has a silencing lever, and sometimes they never knew to begin with. And occasionally someone will have silenced the clock by removing the weights (and the pendulum for good measure, often enough damaging the suspension spring.)

    The service calls are interesting because nobody ever tells the truth about what happened, so it's difficult for me to know how to prevent it in the future.

    M Kinsler
     
  48. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 19, 2005
    40,246
    622
    113
    Male
    Self employed interpreter/clock repairer
    Iowa
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    It looks good now, tk! Don't worry about the chimes. You can imagine that I have several going all the time. They never wake me up unless they do something wrong .... and I always know which one it was :D
     
  49. Dick Feldman

    Dick Feldman Registered User

    Sep 1, 2000
    2,081
    68
    48
    Colorado, usa
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Whenever we have company, the warning is given beforehand. "If you cannot stand the chiming noise, there is a motel down the road. Keep your cotton picking fingers off of my clocks. The dog and the cat live here, leave them alone, too."
     
    peanuts likes this.
  50. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

    Aug 17, 2014
    2,790
    224
    63
    Male
    Science teacher, writer
    Lancaster, Ohio, USA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    We don't use any non-silent or non-quartz clocks* ourselves, so anything that strikes or chimes belongs to a customer and can thus be listened to critically. Whenever I hear one I count the strokes or note the Westminster pattern and then try to recall which one ought to be next: uh, oh--I don't hear the music after that cuckoo clock--but then it turns out that that particular music cuckoo went home last week.

    And so pass the golden years.

    Mark Kinsler

    *except for my mother's 1940 white onyx Telechron, which silently presides over the living room.
     
  51. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 19, 2005
    40,246
    622
    113
    Male
    Self employed interpreter/clock repairer
    Iowa
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Love it! I'm not sure it would work with my relatives (especially my daughter), but I love it! :D
     

Share This Page