Hermle 1151-053 out of beat...maybe?

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by Elizabeth Williams, Jan 6, 2019.

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  1. Elizabeth Williams

    Elizabeth Williams Registered User

    Jan 5, 2019
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    Hi all! I purchased a Ridgeway floor clock yesterday, and after assembly I cannot keep the pendulum going. Let me note I have never had a floor clock before, nor worked on the mechanics of any clock. But, yesterday I jumped in to this crazy world head first! Please be patient with me as I may not use the correct terms.
    From what I have been able to learn online, it seems I have possibly three problems. I was able to reassemble the clock, and it runs for about 15 minutes, then stops. While running it never gets in beat. It is more like tick-tock....tick-tock.
    I removed the pendulum and leader and nudged the crutch to where it moves on it's own for a few beats and sure enough the timing is off there. I tried gently pushing it in one direction or the other, but that did not fix the timing (the rate at which the anchor/verge clicks on a gear tooth and releases)...rather, it made it to where the anchor/verge no longer engaged the gear teeth. It seems like this is my main problem, and unless I can correct this, fixing the other issues won't matter (pendulum swings a bit in a crescent shape; I have no clue what the thumbscrew on the pendulum leader should look like as far as how tight it should be)...but again, I really have no clue and have only gotten this far thanks to this forum and the interwebz.
    The movement is from 1979 I think (?) So I read here that it is past its prime and should be replaced. However, the clock was in good working order according to the previous owner (maybe I shouldn't have been so trusting), and after looking up the price of a new movement, not to mention the labor costs, I'd never be able to afford it.
    Oh, and yes, it is leveled in/out/front/back.
     
  2. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    elizabeth -

    welcome, and here are some thoughts:

    you can see it... we can't. pictures would help. videos would really help... you can upload videos to youtube and then post the link here... the MB (message board) will automagically embed the video

    you said you were able to 'reassemble the clock'... but i think you mean re-attach pendulum and weights, etc., as opposed to taking the movement apart and reassembling. the right way to do this is to completely disassemble the movement, clean and service essential parts, re-assemble, oil, test, tweak, etc. until you do that, you don't know if you have gunk in the pivot holes (the holes in the front and back plates where the 'arbors' that hold gears ride) or if any pivot holes are worn, or if any of the pivots are bent slightly, etc. the problem is that movements made in the 70s were not really designed to run for more than 25-ish years.... and it's sometimes cheaper/easier to put in a new movement. all of that said, putting it in beat is essential. it doesn't matter how it runs with the pendulum off... you need to (i think) adjust that thumbscrew (need to see it to be sure, though!) with the pendulum in place.... i believe that the thumbscrew will help you dial it into beat. we are talking minor turns in either direction, but try that. you MUST have even spacing between the ticks and tocks or it will come to a stop.

    the pendulum swinging in a crescent shape is another issue... you really want it swinging in a perfectly straight arc.

    i think we really need to see photos of the crutch, the pendulum, where/how they attach, the thumbscrew you mentioned, etc.
     
  3. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    Its over 30 years old, i think its past its shelf life. Might need to be replaced.
     
  4. Elizabeth Williams

    Elizabeth Williams Registered User

    Jan 5, 2019
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    Thanks for the advice and proper wording!
    In the few minutes between my OP and now, I must have done something right. I reattached the pendulum leader after loosening the thumb screw until the tip of the screw barely touched the plate (it was screwed so tight that more than half of the screw length was inside the fork). Then, I mucked about with the crutch for a bit, and I was able to get it to start moving in beat. It's been going for about 15 minutes and still same beat. But, this is without the pendulum attached.
    I'll attach the pendulum and see how this effects the beat. I'll load a video of the weird swing as well as the photos requested.
    Thabk you so much for your help! This has been a thrillingly frustrating endeavor!
     
  5. Elizabeth Williams

    Elizabeth Williams Registered User

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    Ok, here is the video of the pendulum attached and the wobble.



    Now that the pendulum is attached, it goes back to the tick-tock.......tick-tock......tick-tock, and stops completely after several minutes.
     
  6. Elizabeth Williams

    Elizabeth Williams Registered User

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    Would purchasing a new pendulum and see if it swings straight help to diagnose the problem?
     
  7. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    Jan 1, 2005
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    See Beat Setting 101.
    I think your pendulum suspension spring has gotten bent, making the pendulum wobble.

    Welcome to the Message Board.:)
     
  8. Elizabeth Williams

    Elizabeth Williams Registered User

    Jan 5, 2019
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    Here are some photos of the pendulum where it hooks on the leader cross pin. Again, sorry if these are not the correct terms, I only started this yesterday! 20190106_105911.jpg 20190106_110212.jpg
     
  9. Elizabeth Williams

    Elizabeth Williams Registered User

    Jan 5, 2019
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    I actually started with Beat Setting 101, which is how I got this far into nomenclature and such, and the suspension spring doesn't look bent, but I'll figure out how to order a new one. I assume I just need to know the specific movement in order to get the correct one?
    Dang thing is so delicate, and my eyes are so old, I probably wouldn't be able to tell if it was bent anyway ;)
     
  10. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    When you have some time, look here: Clock Parts Terminology.

    The model number of the movement should be stamped on the back plate.
     
  11. Elizabeth Williams

    Elizabeth Williams Registered User

    Jan 5, 2019
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    Thanks! Those diagrams are much more helpful than the one in the owners manual I have (which seems to list names in German, and only for a few parts).
    I already found the model number of the movement, it is the title of this post....or, maybe that is something else?
     
  12. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

    Feb 9, 2008
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    Your clock is grossly out of beat. The little thumb screw you mentioned, as being to tight, is actually the beat adjuster. Take off the pendulum and remove the suspension spring and leader. Closely inspect the suspension spring (send photos) and place the adjuster screw, the one in the leader, at the half way point on the threads. In other words the adjustment is centered. Then put everything back together and adjust the pallet assembly, inside the plates at the top, for an even beat. The pallet assembly on your clock is a tight friction fit on its atbor. It will take some amount of pressure to slightly rotate the pallet assembly on its arbor. You do this without the pendulum. When the beat adjustment is close, with the pendulum attached, fine adjustment can be done with the little thumb screw on the leader. It should sound like a metronome, with the tick left of center exactly like the tick right of center. Zero syncopation, in musical terms.

    The leader connects the suspension spring to the pendulum.

    The crutch loosely connects the pallet arbor to the leader through the eye/slot at the bottom of the crutch.

    Power transmission is: escape wheel to pallets, to pallet arbor, to crutch, to leader, to pendulum.

    Odds are that you have a worn out movement there but it can be a good learning experience either way. You will probably have to remove the movement and place it on some kind of stand to figure all this out. Good luck, Willie X
     
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  13. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    #13 bangster, Jan 6, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2019
    No, that's the model number. Google Timesavers and see what they have for suspension springs.

    Or send a PM to Mark Butterworth and see if he has anything.
     
  14. breeze

    breeze Registered User

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    In the first picture of post #8 it looks like the leader may be rubbing the back of the leader. If the leader is touching either the front or back of the leader you will not be able to put the movement in beat and it will cause the clock to stop and may be the source of the wobble in the pendulum for the short time that it will run.

    breeze
     
  15. MARK A. BUTTERWORTH

    MARK A. BUTTERWORTH Registered User
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    I think you meant to say leader rubbing the back of the crutch. The crutch needs to be bent backwards so that the leader falls between the front and the back of the crutch. This by itself could be the source of the problem. Whatever the problem is, it is not the pendulum.
     
  16. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    Hey Elizabeth, did anybody ever tell you Welcome To The Message Board?:):emoji_grinning::emoji_cat2::clap::D

    If not, consider it told.
     
  17. breeze

    breeze Registered User

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    Yes I did, thanks Mark.

    breeze
     
  18. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    I suspect that the suspension spring is reasonably okay, but it looks like the crutch might have been bent a bit during all the combat. Make sure that the crutch (the part that connects to the verge, or anchor, in the escapement) rattles a bit on the pendulum leader. That means that as the pendulum moves back and forth there should be one point near the middle of its travel where the pendulum leader and the crutch briefly lose mechanical contact. If this does not happen, it means that the crutch is rubbing the pendulum leader throughout the stroke, and this will stop the clock in a short time. (This is because the arc of the crutch and the arc of the pendulum are not centered at the same point.)

    Once that's taken care of, and it will likely involve bending the crutch a bit such that the pendulum leader stays happily enclosed within the loop of the crutch without touching it, you can fool with the beat. If you're lucky you'll be able to adjust the beat to an even tick by turning that thumbscrew. I'd begin with the thumbscrew at about the center of its travel and give it a turn one way or the other to hear if the clock's beat has improved. If it's still way off no matter what you do with the thumbscrew, you'll have to fool with the crutch's relationship with the escapement verge.

    If you're steadier than I am, you can try tilting the clock a bit one way or the other to see in which direction the beat improves. Then the rule is:

    If tilting your clock helps the beat abide
    Then bend your crutch to that high side

    which is the worst bit of poetry I ever heard, and I probably got the first line wrong as well.

    Note that getting a difficult clock into beat can take a larger chunk out of your life than you might anticipate, especially if there's a lot of noise in the room (try it at a customer's house with theTV blasting Fox News or HGTV, which is what people do to keep themselves company.) You have to adjust, and try, and adjust, and try, etc.

    I wouldn't condemn the movement just yet--not until you get the clock set up properly. In the worst case these movements can be restored like any others, and if the clock was indeed working previously it'll likely work fine now. If the pendulum is swinging in a curve instead of a straight line and/or wobbling, make sure you let it swing for five to ten minutes or so to let it settle down. Suspension springs do get bent and wrinkled and broken, but the Germans have long put various plastic protective devices on them, so chances are yours is okay. I generally louse them up only after I've removed them from the clock.

    Mark Kinsler
     

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