Henry Marc French Clock Info Needed

captainclock

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Greetings everyone, I will be getting from a friend on another forum an old Henry Marc French Mantle Clock from either the late 19th or early 20th Century (not sure of the exact age as the guy I'm getting the clock from didn't have an exact date for the clock.)
The person I'm getting the clock from thought that the clock movement was made for Henry Marc by Japy Freres, but wasn't sure. Maybe someone on here will recognize the maker's mark on the back of the movement.


Anyways I was wondering if you guys had any information about this clock for me like who made it when it was made if its missing any parts or a rough value of the clock.

See pictures below.

Henry Marc Clock Front View.jpg Henry Marc Clock Inside View.jpg Henry Marc Clock Key.jpg Henry Marc Clock Rear View.jpg

Thanks for your help.

-Levi
 

zedric

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Late 19th century would be my guess. No makers mark on the movement so it could be from any one of the makers of these standard Pendule Paris movements. The case seems to be wood, while the more expensive clocks of this style are made in marble. Unfortunately even as a genuine antique this won’t have much value, so it’s value would be what you are prepared to pay for it...
 

JTD

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Maybe someone on here will recognize the maker's mark on the back of the movement.
Your photo won't enlarge, at last not for me, but as far as I can see the mark on the back says:
Hy. Marc, Paris, which was how Marc clocks were usually signed.

I see no reason to suppose that the movement was a Japy, but others may know more.

JTD
 

svenedin

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Lovely key. Likely original key I think. I have a key exactly the same and for a French clock too. Presumably you have the bell somewhere?
 

captainclock

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Your photo won't enlarge, at last not for me, but as far as I can see the mark on the back says:
Hy. Marc, Paris, which was how Marc clocks were usually signed.

I see no reason to suppose that the movement was a Japy, but others may know more.

JTD
Sorry about the photos, I grabbed them from a PM in another forum, so the photos are as they came to me.

But as far as the Henry Marc Marking on the back of the clock movement, is it possible they were the ones who made the movement and the case as well?
 

captainclock

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Lovely key. Likely original key I think. I have a key exactly the same and for a French clock too. Presumably you have the bell somewhere?
I don't think the bell is with the clock anymore unfortunately which is why I said that there were some parts missing, I'm assuming that the bracket that is situated above where the pentulum goes is where the bell goes?
 

svenedin

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I don't think the bell is with the clock anymore unfortunately which is why I said that there were some parts missing, I'm assuming that the bracket that is situated above where the pentulum goes is where the bell goes?
Yes the bell goes on the bell post and you appear to still have the knurled nut that holds the bell on. You can get a replacement bell easily enough. I notice the suspension spring is badly bent (probably from moving the clock with the pendulum attached). The clock is very unlikely to run until the suspension spring is replaced.
 

captainclock

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Yes the bell goes on the bell post and you appear to still have the knurled nut that holds the bell on. You can get a replacement bell easily enough.
OK, that's good to know, where would the hammer for striking the bell be? I see the count wheel and its associated parts but I don't see a hammer for striking the bell...
 

svenedin

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OK, that's good to know, where would the hammer for striking the bell be? I see the count wheel and its associated parts but I don't see a hammer for striking the bell...
Hammer is next to the count wheel and has a circular head. Position of the hammer suggests to me that it is raised and the strike ran out of power mid-strike.
 

svenedin

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I have a better picture of the front of the front of the clock. Again I appologize for the size of the picture.



OK, that makes more sense.
Just a guess but because the bell is missing but the knurled nut has been put back on the post it may be that the bell was removed because the strike annoyed a previous owner or (because it is count wheel) the strike became out of sequence with the hour displayed and they did not know how to remedy this so removed the bell. Obviously this movement is not count wheel but it is French pedule de Paris movement showing how the bell attaches and where the hammer is in relation to the bell (my clock, Samuel Marti). IMG_5880.jpeg
 
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captainclock

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Just a guess but because the bell is missing but the knurled nut has been put back on the post it may be that the bell was removed because the strike annoyed a previous owner or (because it is count wheel) the strike became out of sequence with the hour displayed and they did not know how to remedy this so removed the bell.
Maybe the Bell is still with it but is in the bottom of the case? I'll have the guy that currently owns it who is going to sell it to me for the cost of shipping basically, look in the bottom of the case and see if the bell was maybe stuffed down there by the previous owner before him.
 

svenedin

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Maybe the Bell is still with it but is in the bottom of the case? I'll have the guy that currently owns it who is going to sell it to me for the cost of shipping basically, look in the bottom of the case and see if the bell was maybe stuffed down there by the previous owner before him.
Entirely possible!
 

captainclock

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Entirely possible!
I sent the guy a message just now and I'll see what he says. he did mention something about hearing a "muffled gong" sound in the case when he got it and when he got it it was in non-working order which that "muffed gong" sound he heard could of been the bell clanging around in the bottom of the case.
 

svenedin

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I sent the guy a message just now and I'll see what he says. he did mention something about hearing a "muffled gong" sound in the case when he got it and when he got it it was in non-working order which that "muffed gong" sound he heard could of been the bell clanging around in the bottom of the case.
The obvious cause of non-working order is that bent suspension spring. The movement also clearly needs a good clean. There may be other issues of course but these movements are very well made and often show very little wear even after so long in use. If you are not familiar with these movements they can be tricky to work on. The pivots are fine and the steel is very hard so they are easy to break. A good book on these movements is "The French Marble Clock" by Thorpe. Yes, I know it is not a marble clock but these pendule de Paris movements were used in many different types of case.
 

captainclock

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The obvious cause of non-working order is that bent suspension spring. The movement also clearly needs a good clean. There may be other issues of course but these movements are very well made and often show very little wear even after so long in use. If you are not familiar with these movements they can be tricky to work on. The pivots are fine and the steel is very hard so they are easy to break. A good book on these movements is "The French Marble Clock" by Thorpe. Yes, I know it is not a marble clock but these pendule de Paris movements were used in many different types of case.
OK, thanks for the info and the Heads up! I've kind of got the American Clock Movements figured out and some of the German ones figured out, so this French Clock will be a new experience for me. :)
 

svenedin

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OK, thanks for the info and the Heads up! I've kind of got the American Clock Movements figured out and some of the German ones figured out, so this French Clock will be a new experience for me. :)
I think you have a rather nice clock there. Worthy of a careful overhaul of movement and case. I think the glass is damaged. You can get glass cut to size and bevelled to replace this but it's not cheap. I have had this done for several clocks in the past. Some glassmakers will fit it to the bezel for you which I would advise as it's not easy (you send the the bezel with the glass still in it and they send it back with the new glass fitted). I think in present condition it's probably worth a few hundred £s. More of course working and restored. Enjoy it!
 
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captainclock

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I think you have a rather nice clock there. Worthy of a careful overhaul of movement and case. Enjoy it!
Thanks, although I don't have the clock yet, I won't be getting it until next week, but yeah its definitely a neat looking clock.

My Sister went to France when she was in High School for her French Class and I think I might gift it to her because she likes French stuff and I think she might get a charge out of a French Clock.
 

svenedin

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Thanks, although I don't have the clock yet, I won't be getting it until next week, but yeah its definitely a neat looking clock.

My Sister went to France when she was in High School for her French Class and I think I might gift it to her because she likes French stuff and I think she might get a charge out of a French Clock.
Lovely idea. You may just want to keep it when it's all done though!
 

zedric

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Your photo won't enlarge, at last not for me, but as far as I can see the mark on the back says:
Hy. Marc, Paris, which was how Marc clocks were usually signed.

I see no reason to suppose that the movement was a Japy, but others may know more.

JTD
Henry Marc used Japy movements in some of the clocks they sold, but as this one doesn’t have a Japy stamp it is unlikely to be from them. As far as I am aware, no one has shown that Marc was a maker of clocks. They certainly bought in many clocks from others and added their stamp, and they certainly has quite a considerable retail business.
 

JTD

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Henry Marc used Japy movements in some of the clocks they sold, but as this one doesn’t have a Japy stamp it is unlikely to be from them. As far as I am aware, no one has shown that Marc was a maker of clocks. They certainly bought in many clocks from others and added their stamp, and they certainly has quite a considerable retail business.

Yes, you are quite right. I didn't phrase my post very well, I didn't mean to imply that Marc had made the movement, just that I couldn't see a reason for it being a Japy (no mark).

JTD
 

jmclaugh

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I have a very similar clock but it's a timepiece and unmarked except for an English retailer on the dial. The case should clean and polish up nicely. It is hard to see but it looks like there may be a movement maker's mark behind the crutch in the second picture. Is the name on the dial also Marc? As it has a suspension adjustment through the dial at 12 I would have thought the original key would have been double ended. The pendulum if original should have the same # marked on the movement.

These movements by this time were bought in from large makers such as Japy either as complete movements or to be finished and cased or as complete complete clocks to be retailed. I suspect Marc both retailed and finished movements but didn't make them.
 

captainclock

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So How big of diameter is the bell I need for this clock, because time savers has Bells listed in diameters ranging from 1-1/2" to 5" in diameter.

I would appreciate your help in this matter.
 

brian fisher

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So How big of diameter is the bell I need for this clock, because time savers has Bells listed in diameters ranging from 1-1/2" to 5" in diameter.

I would appreciate your help in this matter.

i would guess it is around 1.5 to 2 inches in diameter. i think it best to wait until you have the clock in your hands so you can measure it before you buy. my guess is that this clock was built after 1865 but likely before 1875. Pendule de paris movements were made for decades-mostly in the 19th c. earlier ones were mostly count wheel style and later versions were mostly rack and snail such as the photo in post #13 of this thread. there was overlap of many years between the two styles. also, wood clocks were generally earlier than marble versions. my guess is that this clock in working condition here in the usa is probably valued south of 150.00. however, these are very high quality clocks in comparison to what they usually sell for here on this side of the pond. i think one of the problems for collectors is that these movements have a reputation as being rather difficult to repair and service. not everyone dislikes them however. i have rehabbed a handful, and have gotten to the point to where i actually enjoy the challenge of them in some misogynistic way.
 

captainclock

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Ok, so a little update on this clock, it came in the mail today and I looked at the movement carefully and the movement is indeed a Japy Freres movement. See picture below.

The makers mark was hidden under the bell bracket in the original pictures.

The case does have some damage, like fractures in the wood case and around the dial, and at the bottom of the dial, the enamel is damaged.

So how do I remove the movement from the case? 20210607_121722.jpg
 

JTD

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So how do I remove the movement from the case?
Unscrew the two screws on the back of the case that hold the two straps against the circular back door frame. Then you can pull the movement out from the front.

JTD
 

captainclock

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OK, so apparently this clock does have some sort of issue with its pendulum, because I straightened out the suspension spring and the clock still wont stay running, the bizzare thing is that I think it has something to to with the verge assembly on the clock (like all of my clocks I've gotten so far that had issues with not wanting to stay running) but this clock has a verge gear that looks like it isn't as easily bent as the ones on the American clocks.

Any ideas as to how to go about fixing this issue?
 

captainclock

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Well a little update, I finally got the clock running and I've got a bell on order for the clock. it uses a 2 1/2" bell because I measured from the bell's mounting post to the bottom of the hammer and it measured 1 1/4" so I took that times 2 to get the diameter of the bell and came up with 2 1/2".

Like I said, unfortunately the case has several cracks and splits in the wood from either taking a tumble at one time or from old age and the wood just drying out (the case is walnut and ebony wood veneers over pine.
 

captainclock

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Well the bell came in the mail today and I installed it in the clock, and it has a very cute dainty sound to it when it strikes out the hour and half hour!
 

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