Henry Marc French Clock Info Needed

captainclock

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Greetings everyone, I will be getting from a friend on another forum an old Henry Marc French Mantle Clock from either the late 19th or early 20th Century (not sure of the exact age as the guy I'm getting the clock from didn't have an exact date for the clock.)
The person I'm getting the clock from thought that the clock movement was made for Henry Marc by Japy Freres, but wasn't sure. Maybe someone on here will recognize the maker's mark on the back of the movement.


Anyways I was wondering if you guys had any information about this clock for me like who made it when it was made if its missing any parts or a rough value of the clock.

See pictures below.

Henry Marc Clock Front View.jpg Henry Marc Clock Inside View.jpg Henry Marc Clock Key.jpg Henry Marc Clock Rear View.jpg

Thanks for your help.

-Levi
 

zedric

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Late 19th century would be my guess. No makers mark on the movement so it could be from any one of the makers of these standard Pendule Paris movements. The case seems to be wood, while the more expensive clocks of this style are made in marble. Unfortunately even as a genuine antique this won’t have much value, so it’s value would be what you are prepared to pay for it...
 

JTD

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Maybe someone on here will recognize the maker's mark on the back of the movement.
Your photo won't enlarge, at last not for me, but as far as I can see the mark on the back says:
Hy. Marc, Paris, which was how Marc clocks were usually signed.

I see no reason to suppose that the movement was a Japy, but others may know more.

JTD
 

svenedin

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Lovely key. Likely original key I think. I have a key exactly the same and for a French clock too. Presumably you have the bell somewhere?
 

captainclock

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Your photo won't enlarge, at last not for me, but as far as I can see the mark on the back says:
Hy. Marc, Paris, which was how Marc clocks were usually signed.

I see no reason to suppose that the movement was a Japy, but others may know more.

JTD
Sorry about the photos, I grabbed them from a PM in another forum, so the photos are as they came to me.

But as far as the Henry Marc Marking on the back of the clock movement, is it possible they were the ones who made the movement and the case as well?
 

captainclock

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Lovely key. Likely original key I think. I have a key exactly the same and for a French clock too. Presumably you have the bell somewhere?
I don't think the bell is with the clock anymore unfortunately which is why I said that there were some parts missing, I'm assuming that the bracket that is situated above where the pentulum goes is where the bell goes?
 

svenedin

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I don't think the bell is with the clock anymore unfortunately which is why I said that there were some parts missing, I'm assuming that the bracket that is situated above where the pentulum goes is where the bell goes?
Yes the bell goes on the bell post and you appear to still have the knurled nut that holds the bell on. You can get a replacement bell easily enough. I notice the suspension spring is badly bent (probably from moving the clock with the pendulum attached). The clock is very unlikely to run until the suspension spring is replaced.
 

captainclock

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Yes the bell goes on the bell post and you appear to still have the knurled nut that holds the bell on. You can get a replacement bell easily enough.
OK, that's good to know, where would the hammer for striking the bell be? I see the count wheel and its associated parts but I don't see a hammer for striking the bell...
 

svenedin

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OK, that's good to know, where would the hammer for striking the bell be? I see the count wheel and its associated parts but I don't see a hammer for striking the bell...
Hammer is next to the count wheel and has a circular head. Position of the hammer suggests to me that it is raised and the strike ran out of power mid-strike.
 

svenedin

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I have a better picture of the front of the front of the clock. Again I appologize for the size of the picture.



OK, that makes more sense.
Just a guess but because the bell is missing but the knurled nut has been put back on the post it may be that the bell was removed because the strike annoyed a previous owner or (because it is count wheel) the strike became out of sequence with the hour displayed and they did not know how to remedy this so removed the bell. Obviously this movement is not count wheel but it is French pedule de Paris movement showing how the bell attaches and where the hammer is in relation to the bell (my clock, Samuel Marti). IMG_5880.jpeg
 
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captainclock

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Just a guess but because the bell is missing but the knurled nut has been put back on the post it may be that the bell was removed because the strike annoyed a previous owner or (because it is count wheel) the strike became out of sequence with the hour displayed and they did not know how to remedy this so removed the bell.
Maybe the Bell is still with it but is in the bottom of the case? I'll have the guy that currently owns it who is going to sell it to me for the cost of shipping basically, look in the bottom of the case and see if the bell was maybe stuffed down there by the previous owner before him.
 

svenedin

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Maybe the Bell is still with it but is in the bottom of the case? I'll have the guy that currently owns it who is going to sell it to me for the cost of shipping basically, look in the bottom of the case and see if the bell was maybe stuffed down there by the previous owner before him.
Entirely possible!
 

captainclock

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Entirely possible!
I sent the guy a message just now and I'll see what he says. he did mention something about hearing a "muffled gong" sound in the case when he got it and when he got it it was in non-working order which that "muffed gong" sound he heard could of been the bell clanging around in the bottom of the case.
 

svenedin

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I sent the guy a message just now and I'll see what he says. he did mention something about hearing a "muffled gong" sound in the case when he got it and when he got it it was in non-working order which that "muffed gong" sound he heard could of been the bell clanging around in the bottom of the case.
The obvious cause of non-working order is that bent suspension spring. The movement also clearly needs a good clean. There may be other issues of course but these movements are very well made and often show very little wear even after so long in use. If you are not familiar with these movements they can be tricky to work on. The pivots are fine and the steel is very hard so they are easy to break. A good book on these movements is "The French Marble Clock" by Thorpe. Yes, I know it is not a marble clock but these pendule de Paris movements were used in many different types of case.
 

captainclock

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The obvious cause of non-working order is that bent suspension spring. The movement also clearly needs a good clean. There may be other issues of course but these movements are very well made and often show very little wear even after so long in use. If you are not familiar with these movements they can be tricky to work on. The pivots are fine and the steel is very hard so they are easy to break. A good book on these movements is "The French Marble Clock" by Thorpe. Yes, I know it is not a marble clock but these pendule de Paris movements were used in many different types of case.
OK, thanks for the info and the Heads up! I've kind of got the American Clock Movements figured out and some of the German ones figured out, so this French Clock will be a new experience for me. :)
 

svenedin

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OK, thanks for the info and the Heads up! I've kind of got the American Clock Movements figured out and some of the German ones figured out, so this French Clock will be a new experience for me. :)
I think you have a rather nice clock there. Worthy of a careful overhaul of movement and case. I think the glass is damaged. You can get glass cut to size and bevelled to replace this but it's not cheap. I have had this done for several clocks in the past. Some glassmakers will fit it to the bezel for you which I would advise as it's not easy (you send the the bezel with the glass still in it and they send it back with the new glass fitted). I think in present condition it's probably worth a few hundred £s. More of course working and restored. Enjoy it!
 
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captainclock

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I think you have a rather nice clock there. Worthy of a careful overhaul of movement and case. Enjoy it!
Thanks, although I don't have the clock yet, I won't be getting it until next week, but yeah its definitely a neat looking clock.

My Sister went to France when she was in High School for her French Class and I think I might gift it to her because she likes French stuff and I think she might get a charge out of a French Clock.
 

svenedin

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Thanks, although I don't have the clock yet, I won't be getting it until next week, but yeah its definitely a neat looking clock.

My Sister went to France when she was in High School for her French Class and I think I might gift it to her because she likes French stuff and I think she might get a charge out of a French Clock.
Lovely idea. You may just want to keep it when it's all done though!
 

zedric

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Your photo won't enlarge, at last not for me, but as far as I can see the mark on the back says:
Hy. Marc, Paris, which was how Marc clocks were usually signed.

I see no reason to suppose that the movement was a Japy, but others may know more.

JTD
Henry Marc used Japy movements in some of the clocks they sold, but as this one doesn’t have a Japy stamp it is unlikely to be from them. As far as I am aware, no one has shown that Marc was a maker of clocks. They certainly bought in many clocks from others and added their stamp, and they certainly has quite a considerable retail business.
 

JTD

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Henry Marc used Japy movements in some of the clocks they sold, but as this one doesn’t have a Japy stamp it is unlikely to be from them. As far as I am aware, no one has shown that Marc was a maker of clocks. They certainly bought in many clocks from others and added their stamp, and they certainly has quite a considerable retail business.

Yes, you are quite right. I didn't phrase my post very well, I didn't mean to imply that Marc had made the movement, just that I couldn't see a reason for it being a Japy (no mark).

JTD
 

jmclaugh

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I have a very similar clock but it's a timepiece and unmarked except for an English retailer on the dial. The case should clean and polish up nicely. It is hard to see but it looks like there may be a movement maker's mark behind the crutch in the second picture. Is the name on the dial also Marc? As it has a suspension adjustment through the dial at 12 I would have thought the original key would have been double ended. The pendulum if original should have the same # marked on the movement.

These movements by this time were bought in from large makers such as Japy either as complete movements or to be finished and cased or as complete complete clocks to be retailed. I suspect Marc both retailed and finished movements but didn't make them.
 

captainclock

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So How big of diameter is the bell I need for this clock, because time savers has Bells listed in diameters ranging from 1-1/2" to 5" in diameter.

I would appreciate your help in this matter.
 

brian fisher

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So How big of diameter is the bell I need for this clock, because time savers has Bells listed in diameters ranging from 1-1/2" to 5" in diameter.

I would appreciate your help in this matter.

i would guess it is around 1.5 to 2 inches in diameter. i think it best to wait until you have the clock in your hands so you can measure it before you buy. my guess is that this clock was built after 1865 but likely before 1875. Pendule de paris movements were made for decades-mostly in the 19th c. earlier ones were mostly count wheel style and later versions were mostly rack and snail such as the photo in post #13 of this thread. there was overlap of many years between the two styles. also, wood clocks were generally earlier than marble versions. my guess is that this clock in working condition here in the usa is probably valued south of 150.00. however, these are very high quality clocks in comparison to what they usually sell for here on this side of the pond. i think one of the problems for collectors is that these movements have a reputation as being rather difficult to repair and service. not everyone dislikes them however. i have rehabbed a handful, and have gotten to the point to where i actually enjoy the challenge of them in some misogynistic way.
 

captainclock

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Ok, so a little update on this clock, it came in the mail today and I looked at the movement carefully and the movement is indeed a Japy Freres movement. See picture below.

The makers mark was hidden under the bell bracket in the original pictures.

The case does have some damage, like fractures in the wood case and around the dial, and at the bottom of the dial, the enamel is damaged.

So how do I remove the movement from the case? 20210607_121722.jpg
 

JTD

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So how do I remove the movement from the case?
Unscrew the two screws on the back of the case that hold the two straps against the circular back door frame. Then you can pull the movement out from the front.

JTD
 

captainclock

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OK, so apparently this clock does have some sort of issue with its pendulum, because I straightened out the suspension spring and the clock still wont stay running, the bizzare thing is that I think it has something to to with the verge assembly on the clock (like all of my clocks I've gotten so far that had issues with not wanting to stay running) but this clock has a verge gear that looks like it isn't as easily bent as the ones on the American clocks.

Any ideas as to how to go about fixing this issue?
 

captainclock

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Well a little update, I finally got the clock running and I've got a bell on order for the clock. it uses a 2 1/2" bell because I measured from the bell's mounting post to the bottom of the hammer and it measured 1 1/4" so I took that times 2 to get the diameter of the bell and came up with 2 1/2".

Like I said, unfortunately the case has several cracks and splits in the wood from either taking a tumble at one time or from old age and the wood just drying out (the case is walnut and ebony wood veneers over pine.
 

captainclock

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Well the bell came in the mail today and I installed it in the clock, and it has a very cute dainty sound to it when it strikes out the hour and half hour!
 

captainclock

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OK So I have a question about these French Pendule de Paris Clocks:

How many days are these clocks rated to run for? I'm asking because I've had my Henry Marc badged Japy Clock for about 3 weeks now and the clock has been running for about 2 and a half of those 3 weeks, with no windings in between... Is it a 30 day movement? If so that's pretty impressive for 1865, seeing as most American Clocks were only rated for 8 days at the most during that time period, and 31 day clocks didn't become common place in America until the mid 20th Century (exceptions being the Prentiss Clocks of the late 19th and early 20th century which ran for 60 days on a single wind).
 

leeinv66

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It's not unusual for roulant movements to run in excess of 14 days. However, they are still classed as an 8 day movement. I have 8 day mass produced American clocks that will run 12 or more days. It's just they keep best time over an 8 day period.
 

zedric

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As Peter says, if they have the original springs they will usually run 14 days give or take, but usually the timekeeping is not so good the longer they run, and remembering to wind a clock once a fortnight is not so easy as once a week, so it is usually better to use it as you would an 8 day clock
 

fido

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Hi Captainclock

My feeling is that your movement may not be original to the case(I may be wrong) to me the case looks a much later case,and does not look that French in style to me.

I also have a Henry Marc clock,may be earlier than yours mine is a silk suspension (yours looks standard pendulum,if that is the right term) I have posted my clock on this forum before,my clock does not have a Jappy stamp, but does happen to have an early Adelaide ,watch maker F Wagner stamp , which is unusual ,he probably retailed it. marc1.JPG marc3.JPG marc5.JPG

would be interested in others thoughts.

Fido
 

captainclock

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Hi Captainclock

My feeling is that your movement may not be original to the case(I may be wrong) to me the case looks a much later case,and does not look that French in style to me.

I also have a Henry Marc clock,may be earlier than yours mine is a silk suspension (yours looks standard pendulum,if that is the right term) I have posted my clock on this forum before,my clock does not have a Jappy stamp, but does happen to have an early Adelaide ,watch maker F Wagner stamp , which is unusual ,he probably retailed it. View attachment 660446 View attachment 660447 View attachment 660448

would be interested in others thoughts.

Fido
Hello, I believe my clock is all original, as I have seen several examples of French clocks just like mine, see the attached picture below to see what I mean.

79972_121227_170000000.jpg
 

captainclock

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It's not unusual for roulant movements to run in excess of 14 days. However, they are still classed as an 8 day movement. I have 8 day mass produced American clocks that will run 12 or more days. It's just they keep best time over an 8 day period.
OK, was just wondering, I thought it was more than likely an 8-day movement, but wasn't sure, because most of my 8-day movement clocks stop after 7 or 8 days, this Japy clock is the first 8-day clock I've seen run for about 2 weeks without any issues, and the accuracy is nearly spot on, only losing about a couple of minutes in about 2 days.

Also from what I read online about these clocks is that these clocks were regulated using a pocket watch key, rather than using a double sided key (like American clocks did) and the key that is pictured with my clock is indeed the original key for the clock.
 

jmclaugh

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If the clock is losing 2 minutes in 2 days consistently that's 7 minutes a week which is a lot, it ought to be able to do better than that.
 

fido

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Hello, I believe my clock is all original, as I have seen several examples of French clocks just like mine, see the attached picture below to see what I mean.

View attachment 660450
Hello
With respect,your case is not like the one pictured, yours has been altered and has the middle section missing (the neck section)
maybe they made shorter ones like yours ,but in my opinion it is not right ,It looks more like a1940 type mantle clock shape to me.
rather than a 1870-80 style. It maybe interesting, if not to difficult to separate the two sections to see if there is any evidence of alteration.
Have you any pictures of one exactly like yours?
I have found some images of a small style similar to your clock,depending on the size of your clock these small ones are different
I feel your clock should be like the image you posted.

Regards Fido clk3.JPG clk2.JPG clk2.JPG clk1.JPG clk1.JPG clk1.JPG
 

JTD

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,It looks more like a1940 type mantle clock shape to me.
I agree the case is not very typically French, but I think it is a good deal older than 1940s. But it is entirely possible that the French movement was put into a British case, as you suggested in post #35.

JTD
 

captainclock

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If the clock is losing 2 minutes in 2 days consistently that's 7 minutes a week which is a lot, it ought to be able to do better than that.
I forgot to mention that I hadn't adjusted the regulator key on the top of the movement when it was running like that, and it only did that for about a week, and then I adjusted the regulator key and its been pretty much spot on timewise for the last week and a half, and I just wound the clock last night.
 

captainclock

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Hello
With respect,your case is not like the one pictured, yours has been altered and has the middle section missing (the neck section)
maybe they made shorter ones like yours ,but in my opinion it is not right ,It looks more like a1940 type mantle clock shape to me.
rather than a 1870-80 style. It maybe interesting, if not to difficult to separate the two sections to see if there is any evidence of alteration.
Have you any pictures of one exactly like yours?
I have found some images of a small style similar to your clock,depending on the size of your clock these small ones are different
I feel your clock should be like the image you posted.

Regards Fido View attachment 660459 View attachment 660460 View attachment 660460 View attachment 660461 View attachment 660461 View attachment 660461
Hello! Once again, I'm pretty sure this is an original clock, I've actually had the case apart once because I was inspecting some damage on the case where the bottom of the movement housing portion of the clock was split clear through, and also when I was working on the movement i dropped some screws down in the bottom of the case, so I had to fish them out, and when it was apart, I saw NO signs of the case being altered in any way, shape or form, it even still had its original mounting screws in there yet, which were standard blade wood screws.

As JTD stated, it could be possible that this clock was originally made for the British Market, hence the more "British" looking case rather than "French" looking case, if that's the case then it most certainly is an original clock, that was made for the export market rather than the domestic French Market, I'm sure Henry Marc sold to other countries besides just France.
 

JTD

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As JTD stated, it could be possible that this clock was originally made for the British Market, hence the more "British" looking case rather than "French" looking case, if that's the case then it most certainly is an original clock, that was made for the export market rather than the domestic French Market, I'm sure Henry Marc sold to other countries besides just France.
And don't forget that Henry Marc movements were sold 'loose', that is uncased, to other clock makers who cased them. It is perfectly possible that the movement was exported to Britain as an uncased movement to a wholesaler who cased it in case that suited his market.

JTD
 

captainclock

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And don't forget that Henry Marc movements were sold 'loose', that is uncased, to other clock makers who cased them. It is perfectly possible that the movement was exported to Britain as an uncased movement to a wholesaler who cased it in case that suited his market.

JTD
Exactly, that's the other thing I was meaning to add to what I said.
This clock was probably special ordered by a wealthy person in GB that wanted a fine quality French Clock but in a British style clock case.
That makes perfect sense to me, because when I looked at how the case was constructed, it looked more hand made, like how they did clock cases in the mid 19th century rather than being mass produced in a factory in the 1940s.
 

JTD

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This clock was probably special ordered by a wealthy person in GB that wanted a fine quality French Clock but in a British style clock case.
I doubt it was a special order. Just a stock clock cased by a wholesaler or retailer. It is a very standard movement.


JTD
 

captainclock

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I doubt it was a special order. Just a stock clock cased by a wholesaler or retailer. It is a very standard movement.


JTD
OK, I guess I might of exaggerated that point there, but my main point was that it most certainly isn't as new of a clock as fido seems to think it is. I got this clock from a fellow collector and he told me what he knew about the clock which was information he got from the person he bought it from, which was the maker of the clock, the brand of the clock and that it was very old (he just didn't know how old), which the time period it was from (1865-1875) was the part you guys on here filled in for me, because I originally thought it was early 20th century, and not mid 19th century, because this was the first French clock I had ever dealt with so I didn't know how far back a clock this style would of actually went.

I saw that this clock has a serial number stamped on it in several places on the movement, is there any way to date this clock to an exact month and year with the serial number? I know American watches were dated with their serial numbers, I didn't know if French Clocks were the same way or not.
 

zedric

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If you look at this logically, if the case has no extra screw holes, then the case has always housed a movement of this style. So then the question becomes is the date of the movement different to that of the case, and is the case something that Marc would have used, or potentially sold a movement for.

As evidenced by Fido with the VAP branded clocks shown, cheaper French clocks of this style were housed in wooden cases at a time that this movement would have been made. (More expensive clocks had slate or marble cases). Marc was still active at this time, and he primarily focussed on the lower and middle end of the market.

So there is no reason I can see to think the case and movement did not start out life together. My only question, based on the last photo in your first post, is are the back of the base, and the back of the top of the case are finished differently? The base appears to be finished all round, while the top seems to have raw wood at the back. But itcould just be the quality of the photo.
 

JimmyOz

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Have you any pictures of one exactly like yours?
Here is a wreck I have that is almost the same as the OP's clock, it is also a French clock, time only, however no makers mark at all. Whether the case was made in the UK or France is unknown, however I think the OP's clock started life together.
CIMG1393.jpg
 
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fido

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Here is a wreck I have that is almost the same as the OP's clock, it is also a French clock, time only, however no makers mark at all. Whether the case was made in the UK or France is unknown, however I think the OP's clock started life together.
View attachment 660561
Hi Members
It looks like I may be wrong on my feeling about the case(I said originally that I may be)
some other points ,I noticed, The V.A.P branded clocks 8 3/4"inch, 6 3/4"inches, have a circular brass sleeve on the internal section,and a press on brass circular cover , Which your clock does not have,The way your back door is hinged does not look right to me.
Maybe just different quality maker,or alteration.
There does not see any doubt that this style of case is original,(not sure on size of your case)
The picture of the similar clock you posted which I said was not similar,probably misled my thoughts.

I am happy to be wrong in this instance,as it is part of the learning process when researching .

I have posted an image that may be helpful.


Regards Fido

. fclock1.JPG fclock2.JPG
From Millers Antiques Price guide 1983 ,page 948.
 

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