Help with TallCase Hall Clock Identification appreciated.

Discussion in 'Your Newest Clock Acquisition' started by wolfscreek1, May 16, 2019.

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Check it out in the NAWCC Events forum:
    Talk about the upcoming National Meeting
    If you love watches or clocks you've got to come!
?

Any ideas on Clock Maker?

  1. information please

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. ideas

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. wolfscreek1

    wolfscreek1 Registered User

    May 16, 2019
    15
    3
    3
    Male
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Help Appreciated. I am having trouble nailing down the history/maker of this family heirloom Tall Case Clock, pruchased around 1923 by great-grandmother in New York City.
    Here is what I have so far:
    . Moon Phase, triple chime (Westminister, Trinity, Whittington), Second sweep, 9-Tubes
    . Oak Case looks "American" with s/n =
    . Clock mechanism is labeled "Germany": Pendulum length = 88 cm, Trademark - looks like 3-turret castle or clock with illegible label below (can't identify in Clock & Watch Trade-Mark Index)

    See Pics.

    Any and all wisdom much appreciated.
    Thanks.
    Tom Wolf Wvy2K7QdSCypeIAw%uwFPg_thumb_218b0.jpg UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_21757.jpg UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_218b2.jpg UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_21a57.jpg UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_21a6d.jpg UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_21a6b.jpg NfkQktd5QvuZwIC+oRXmeA_thumb_218fc.jpg %373b%lyTPaBGaF7Htqe4A_thumb_21a74.jpg

    Wvy2K7QdSCypeIAw%uwFPg_thumb_218b0.jpg UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_21757.jpg UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_218b2.jpg UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_21a57.jpg UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_21a6d.jpg UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_21a6b.jpg NfkQktd5QvuZwIC+oRXmeA_thumb_218fc.jpg %373b%lyTPaBGaF7Htqe4A_thumb_21a74.jpg
     
  2. new2clocks

    new2clocks Registered User
    NAWCC Member Sponsor

    Apr 25, 2005
    1,460
    122
    63
    Pennsylvania
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Welcome to the board!

    At the bottom of the castle and above the numerals 8 and 5, there appears to be a word or words imprinted.

    Unfortunately, the words are difficult to decipher based on the picture. Can you let us know what is written?

    Regards.
     
  3. gleber

    gleber Registered User

    Jun 15, 2015
    1,034
    57
    48
    Downingtown, Pennsylvania USA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    That's an absolutely spectacular case. Thanks for sharing it. I would love to see a better photo without the backlighting or more detailed photos of the sections.

    I am not an expert, but I have a Colonial GF clock from the same era that has a similarly styled stenciled number on the back. Other makers may have used similar, so I wouldn't consider that conclusive.

    Tom
     
  4. new2clocks

    new2clocks Registered User
    NAWCC Member Sponsor

    Apr 25, 2005
    1,460
    122
    63
    Pennsylvania
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Does anyone know why the plate on which "S 3" is inscribed be attached to the backplate in the area above the trademark? I am no expert, but it does not seem to serve a purpose.

    Regards.
     
  5. wolfscreek1

    wolfscreek1 Registered User

    May 16, 2019
    15
    3
    3
    Male
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Here are some sloseups of the case before works installed.
    Appreciate any comments.
    Tom W.

    UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_21760.jpg UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_218fd.jpg rYi7T0wXRi6xeU03BuLdzw_thumb_21902.jpg e66OoLBRQgaInYdZi9YIsw_thumb_218ff.jpg
     
    Dave T and dgoerner like this.
  6. wolfscreek1

    wolfscreek1 Registered User

    May 16, 2019
    15
    3
    3
    Male
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I believe (from the "Back Plate Code" from the Trademark Index, this is actually "88" (not S8) which would be the Pendulum Length in CM.
    Thanks.
    Tom W.
     
  7. D.th.munroe

    D.th.munroe Registered User

    Feb 15, 2018
    176
    27
    28
    Male
    Horologist
    BC Canada
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Wow that is nice.
    "Monastery" is my guess
     
  8. wolfscreek1

    wolfscreek1 Registered User

    May 16, 2019
    15
    3
    3
    Male
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I wish I could decipher the letters... This is likely the name of the Clock Maker or City in Germany.
    Looks like it ends in "...IERZ) maybe?
    Tom W.
     
  9. wolfscreek1

    wolfscreek1 Registered User

    May 16, 2019
    15
    3
    3
    Male
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    "Monastery" possible... Will try for better photo, but this is pretty much rubbed out.
    Tom W.
     
  10. new2clocks

    new2clocks Registered User
    NAWCC Member Sponsor

    Apr 25, 2005
    1,460
    122
    63
    Pennsylvania
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Tom, it seems odd to me that the manufacturer of the movement would place that information on a plate attached to the movement rather than inscribing it directly on the movement.

    BTW, as others have mentioned, the case is very attractive and eye-catching.

    Regards.
     
  11. wolfscreek1

    wolfscreek1 Registered User

    May 16, 2019
    15
    3
    3
    Male
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Agree - The local place that did the restoration said "no clues found" on the movement.
    Tom W.
     
  12. new2clocks

    new2clocks Registered User
    NAWCC Member Sponsor

    Apr 25, 2005
    1,460
    122
    63
    Pennsylvania
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    If it is "monastery", then the following trademark (from Mikrolisk.de) is a close match but not necessarily exact.

    bildmarke_bawodotter4.jpg

    The TM, above, is attributed to Bawo & Dotter, who were importers of "Large" clocks and were based in New York. If correct, we do not know the maker of the movement, just the wholesaler.

    Regards.
     
  13. new2clocks

    new2clocks Registered User
    NAWCC Member Sponsor

    Apr 25, 2005
    1,460
    122
    63
    Pennsylvania
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Here is a Bawo & Dotter with a plate covering the maker's TM.

    Big German Movement - but whose?

    I will let the experts confirm whether your clock was imported by B & D.

    Regards.
     
  14. wolfscreek1

    wolfscreek1 Registered User

    May 16, 2019
    15
    3
    3
    Male
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Wow - I think you hit it on the head! Sure looks like the T.M. and when I google'd Bawo & Dotter 9-tube etc, I get an extremely close rendition of the mechanism, and the 9-tube configuration, which is pretty unusual also: Long tubes, ascending to short, then descending to long - don't know the terminilogy for this, but looks like an inverted smile pattern of tubes.

    The fact that B & D were New York importers is consistent with where the clock was originally purchased in NYC. It then "lived" most of its life in New York City and New Rochelle, NY.

    Thanks again.
    Tom W.
     
  15. gleber

    gleber Registered User

    Jun 15, 2015
    1,034
    57
    48
    Downingtown, Pennsylvania USA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Thanks for the extra pictures. Wow! Wow! Wow! Wow! 1 for each photo. :D

    How tall is it?
     
  16. wolfscreek1

    wolfscreek1 Registered User

    May 16, 2019
    15
    3
    3
    Male
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Height about 99". Here is a poor photo of original with Gold Leaf decor.

    Thanks.

    Tom W. sg8Tp%ruTumvqtNqxvL0dg_thumb_21759.jpg
     
    gleber likes this.
  17. gleber

    gleber Registered User

    Jun 15, 2015
    1,034
    57
    48
    Downingtown, Pennsylvania USA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Impressive! I like to see these old photos of clocks in their original settings. This clock certainly commands a presence in any room in which it resides. You have a great piece. I wish I could help you more with its the background lineage.

    Tom
     
  18. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

    Jan 20, 2017
    982
    152
    43
    houston, tx
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    your clock has the "elite" flower in the dial between the 12 and the moon phase. the movement is an earlier charles jacques design sold in the usa under bawo & dotter. as far as i know, jacques was the only maker that used this tube configuration. this is indeed a monestary movement as was stated above and as indicated by that rear plate stamping in the 1st, 7th, and 8th photos in your first entry. your cabinet is extrordinary. beautifully excuted carvings. it is very uncommon and i have never seen another one like it. the movement and dial were made in baden germany, the lead in the weights, the tubes and the cabinet were most likely made here in the usa. i assume that if you take the weights apart, the lead is probably stamped "tattham Bros". most likely, the tubes have a stamping on the top of the caps that say "elite" and "patent dec 4, 1900". there may be 3 other sets of digits on the top of your cap. the top number of the 3 will probably be a 9 denoting that the clock is a 9 tube model. the middle will probably be a 3 digit number denoting the pitch of all nine tubes. all 9 should have the same number. the 3rd row varies but most have the actual order of the tubes based on length rather than order.

    that is indeed a purdy clock you have there. i really hope that you cherrish it. if it were a Herschede movement in that cabient, (it isn't sadly) it would really be worth a LOT of money.

    most of the details you mention above are pretty accurate, but it does not have a second sweep hand. it has a seconds hand in a subsidery dial above the hour and minute hands.

    the stamped model number "1168" does seem rather Colonial-esque, but i have never seen a clock like this that came out of their west michigan factory. I have a couple Jacques hall clocks. none of the cases seem to have markings that can place them at any particular factory. my personal theory is that my examples have cabinets that were made by Herchede during the time they were being built Cincinatti, OH.

    i think i covered most of it. if you have any other questions, please ask.

    Brian
     
  19. wolfscreek1

    wolfscreek1 Registered User

    May 16, 2019
    15
    3
    3
    Male
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Brian - Thank you so much for this informative response... just read this AM (Arizona).
    What a great resource to have this NAWCC Bulletin and all the experience from everyone out there.
    Very good to have some definitive history on this tall case/hall clock - B & D Monastery, Elite Hall Clock by Charles Jacques, around 1900.

    In some of the scribbled family notes with this "hand me down" is a notation that the Clock Maker was named "Feldner, 1923" but I find no such person out there... At some point, I will follow your hints and look in the Tube tops for the clues you mentioned.
    Also, I will remove the "Plate" (with "S8" or "88" pendulum length) above the T.M.. Maybe there will be a more definitive marking.

    Thank you again for the insights.

    Tom W.
     
  20. new2clocks

    new2clocks Registered User
    NAWCC Member Sponsor

    Apr 25, 2005
    1,460
    122
    63
    Pennsylvania
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Tom, the patent date of 1900 indicates that the object - in this case the tubes - could not have been made prior to 1900, but does not indicate that the clock was made in 1900. I suspect that once the plate is removed and we find (hopefully) the TM of the movement maker, we will be able to narrow the date of the clock.

    "Feldner" is most likely the retailer that sold the clock or a repairman.

    Regards.
     
  21. new2clocks

    new2clocks Registered User
    NAWCC Member Sponsor

    Apr 25, 2005
    1,460
    122
    63
    Pennsylvania
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Tom,

    In researching a different issue, I found this by chance:

    B & D Limited ID

    Since the Monastery TM was registered in September of 1909, your clock was most likely made no earlier than 1909.

    As I said earlier, should we find the maker of your movement, we can narrow the date of manufacture.

    Regards.
     
    wolfscreek1 likes this.
  22. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

    Jan 20, 2017
    982
    152
    43
    houston, tx
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #22 brian fisher, May 17, 2019
    Last edited: May 17, 2019
    yes. i would date this one around 1915. perhaps earlier by a few years. i base my conclusion on the somewhat odd tube order, the movement type, and the monumental cabinet design. by about 1920 or so, this sort of cabinet had fallen out of style, and for the most part, were discontunued in favor of more gothic styles short enough to fit under an 8' ceiling.

    SQERl6.jpg

    that is an 11 tube Jacques on the left and the 13 tube is on the right. both of these cabinets were likely built well after 1920. the 13 bell is designed so that the winding spools can hold a lot more cable than would fit into a case of such relatively short height. i would guess that with a tall enough cabinet, that clock is capable of running for 11 or 12 days.
     
    Kevin W. and wolfscreek1 like this.
  23. Tatyana

    Tatyana Registered User

    Jan 2, 2016
    285
    40
    28
    Female
    Saint Petersburg
    Country Flag:
    Hi all!

    This movement was made by M. Bauerle in the 1910s.

    BR, Tatyana
     
    wolfscreek1 likes this.
  24. wolfscreek1

    wolfscreek1 Registered User

    May 16, 2019
    15
    3
    3
    Male
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Please expound - what leads you to this conclusion?

    Thanks.

    Tom W.
     
  25. D.th.munroe

    D.th.munroe Registered User

    Feb 15, 2018
    176
    27
    28
    Male
    Horologist
    BC Canada
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    In searching I found some similar cases and attributed to R.J. Horner
     
  26. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

    Jan 20, 2017
    982
    152
    43
    houston, tx
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    tatyana is correct. i didn't mention that because there were so darn many names in the pot, it just gets so confusing. most just call it a jacques or an Elite and those in the know know what is meant by it.

    movement design and patent by Charles Jacques. movement built by Mathias Bauerle. imported by bawo and dotter......trade name is "elite". lead weights made by Tattham bros, tubes made by RH Mayland, cabinet made by...?

    you get the idea.....
     
    PatH and Tatyana like this.
  27. new2clocks

    new2clocks Registered User
    NAWCC Member Sponsor

    Apr 25, 2005
    1,460
    122
    63
    Pennsylvania
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    To add to what Brian said (and probably confuse the situation:D):

    - "Elite" was a tradename used by B&D. "Elite" was also a tradename used by other clock and watch firms.

    - Matthias Bäuerle is known to have supplied B&D with movements.

    Also, allow me to belatedly introduce Tatyana, who is one of our in-house experts on identifying unmarked German movements. She has an extensive data base on German movements and a keen eye in identifying characteristics of various German manufacturers.

    Regards.
     
    PatH and wolfscreek1 like this.
  28. wolfscreek1

    wolfscreek1 Registered User

    May 16, 2019
    15
    3
    3
    Male
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    OK, I am starting to comprehend the nuances... Still not sure how to factor in the "Monastery" label on the B&D T.M. When I finally remove the plate on back of the movement, I anticipate seeing something pointing to M Bauerle, or Jacques, but I thought the movement was either Monastery vs Elite... Is it one or the other?

    BTW, read the thread on the 13-tube Jaques - great details (I used to play the Cello (in a previous life), so I have some music appreciation.

    Tatyana, thank you for your input. The only other German clock in my collection is this Table Clock (below): "Boars Head Strike", Seidler at (A) Thorn, Poland (Thorn/Turin/Torun Poland) Circa 1715 - which I believe in the day, was Germany (now Poland)... Any thoughts appreciated (see pics).

    Tom W.

    UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_1c4a2.jpg nw7erGlxQiGfa8IMnrKI2A_thumb_1c4a4.jpg
     
  29. new2clocks

    new2clocks Registered User
    NAWCC Member Sponsor

    Apr 25, 2005
    1,460
    122
    63
    Pennsylvania
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Tom,

    The maker of the movement is Baeuerle (English spelling).

    B&D is the importer / retailer. Some movement makers would allow the TM of the importer / retailer to imprint the TM of the importer or retailer onto their movements. Think of Tiffany - they did not make clocks or watches. They would imprint their Tiffany TM on the timepieces, similar to B&D.

    So, you have a clock that was retailed / imported by B&D with a movement made by Baeuerle.

    I think that when Brian mentioned "Elite", he was saying that the terms B&D and Elite were interchangeable, since B&D used the Elite tradename from time to time. He identified what he refers to as the Elite flower on the dial face. I am not familiar with the Elite flower, so I will assume that he is correct.

    If we accept that B&D and Elite are interchangeable, then I would describe you clock as a Matthias Baeuerle clock, imported by B&D, as we tend to identify the movement maker "higher in the pecking order" then the makers of other components of the clock or the importer / retailer (Tiffany notwithstanding).

    It can be confusing, because one assumes that a clock was made - soup to nuts - by one firm, but this is rarely the case (no pun intended).

    Regards.
     
    wolfscreek1 likes this.
  30. wolfscreek1

    wolfscreek1 Registered User

    May 16, 2019
    15
    3
    3
    Male
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Since my clock is approximately Circa 1910, curious to know which Mathias Baeuerle is believed to be the maker of this movement?
    . Father = The founder of the company—Mathias Bäuerle (1838-1916) from St. Georgen, would have been in mid to late 70's or
    . his son Mathias (of 4 sons) —Tobias, Fridolin, Christian and Mathias. At least three of them, Christian (1860-1918), Tobias (1863-1933), and Mathias (1865-1935) in his mid 40's at the time were said to be involved in his father's business.

    Tom W.
     
  31. new2clocks

    new2clocks Registered User
    NAWCC Member Sponsor

    Apr 25, 2005
    1,460
    122
    63
    Pennsylvania
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I believe that it would be Matthias, the son.

    Others may have better information.

    As stated earlier, the TM (if any) under the plate will be of great help.

    Matthias the son had, I believe, three trademarks registered to his company, two of which were "Peerless" and "Embee".

    I thought there was a family history of the Baeuerle clan on this board but I can not yet find it.

    Regards.
     
  32. wolfscreek1

    wolfscreek1 Registered User

    May 16, 2019
    15
    3
    3
    Male
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Attached is a brief history of Mathias Bauerle clan. Looks like it was M. the elder who started the "Peerles" and "Embee" companies.
    [​IMG]
     
  33. new2clocks

    new2clocks Registered User
    NAWCC Member Sponsor

    Apr 25, 2005
    1,460
    122
    63
    Pennsylvania
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    A quick check of the Mikrolisk site indicates that both the "Peerless" and "Embee" TM's (and their variants) that were used in clockmaking were registered after the death of the senior Matthias in 1916, the earliest being 1922.

    Regards.
     
  34. wolfscreek1

    wolfscreek1 Registered User

    May 16, 2019
    15
    3
    3
    Male
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Interesting variants of the literature. Sounds like maybe the younger Mathies (in his 40's) had more energy than the senior.

    BTW, I just finished reading the details of the Thomas Spittler article on "The American Hall Clock Industry" .
    Figures 23, 24, 25, 26 in the NAWCC Bulletin article look to be my clock, EXACTLY:

    The "Trumpeterclock".
    . (from Duy Ly's Longcase Clocks and Standing Regulators Part l: Machine Made Clocks. 1994, p422... from Toby Furniture Co's Catalog of 1900).
    In the Bulletin article Figure 23, the picture shows No. 31168 "Flemish Oak Hall Clock" (my case s/n is 1168)
    "The Trumpeterclock".
    . with an Elliot Movement (semi confused with the "Elite" terminology)
    . Durfee Tubes
    . Tiffany & Co on the dial (mine has a similar face plate, but not legible!! - wonder if it can be restored??)
    . Toby Furniture Co, Chicago, Ill
    Again, maybe the info behind the back plate and Patent on the Tubes will elucidate...

    Tom W.
     
  35. wolfscreek1

    wolfscreek1 Registered User

    May 16, 2019
    15
    3
    3
    Male
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #35 wolfscreek1, May 18, 2019
    Last edited: May 18, 2019
    [​IMG] ... Following the investigative pathway - Just found my clock = The Flemish Oak Hall Clock (Trumpeter)

    . Case attributed by some to R.J. Horner and Company (New York) - as mentioned in above thread also.
    - Many companies from this era had carvers of this quality, retailed by the Tobey Furniture Company, Chicago, ca 1900, in mahogany with poplar secondary wood.
    . The movement is by Elliott of London, with 9 tubes marked by Harris and Harrington
    . Both the Westminster and Whittington chimes - mine has Triple Chimes.
    . Brass and iron dial with a calendar wheel with sun and moon dial - mine is Moon Phase only.
    . The dial is an engraved plaque that reads, TOBEY CHICAGO 1856 - my plaque is not legible.

    Will keep tracking down the details...

    Tom W.
     

    Attached Files:

Share This Page