Hello everybody, I have received a (once) nice PHS (aka Teutonia) shelf cuckoo. Ca 1870 in date. Due to a shipping accident, the case became badly shattered and the former owner offered it to me in reasonable conditions The heavy single-fusee brass movement went through the dial and smashed it into splinters. Now I am struggling with it... Most parts of the case are there but columns and topper have vanished (maybe an openwork fence at the basement too) Have you ever seen a (more) complete similar case to have an idea on how they looked like, please? I know that there are PHS/Teutonia catalogues (original or reprints) available. Could you please take a look at them for if my case appears? There is number 34951 written on the label but I don't know if it corresponds to the model or to the individual clock. Many thanks in advance!! Aitor
What a shame! You don't see table cuckoos with fusees very often. This 1884 PHS catalogue listing is as close as I can get. The model numbers had three, four, or five numerals. I hope the picture helps you a little bit. Please do show us the movement and the result, when you're finished.
Many thanks, Jürgen! The case was probably more complicated. I've been pointed to something like that on the poor image I enclose. Also goes a pic of the movement. Bird, pipes and bellows are missing too... Well, let's see from this point of view: were not for that disaster, I wouldn't have been able to get a clock of this level... Aitor
A good shot, bullseye! The movement is quite well known (and reknown) and is described in Schneider's book Beha Uhren, page 348. What happened with the package, did it fall from the truck?
The old photo is also on Dr. Schneider's book, fig. 281 right. That case is not exactly like mine but it is very similar. Unfortunately, I cannot extract the information I need from it. That's why I turned here in search of more help. Eeerh, not only the movement is like that on 'Beha Uhren'... it is that very movement... No idea on what happened. The disastrous travel was from Great Britain to Germany towards the former owner. I bought the clock as it is now. Fortunately, the travel from Germany to Spain has been smoother... Aitor
Hi Aitor, Here are a few photos of a clock I have similar to yours. It is not marked so I can't say it is a PHS, but similar case design. I also do not hace the crest, but one was there at some point. Hope these help, Robin
The cases (fig. 281) shown in Schneider's book are from the casemakers company Gebr. Heer, Vöhrenbach (not Herr, Triberg - a clock and movement maker). Indeed, there were many specialized casemakers around, making ID difficult, because most clockmakers had (at least some) cases supplied. Schneider does point out i.e., that PHS fusee movements were often mistakenly considered Beha's in some former publications. As it is, I'm trying to ID a BF movement myself, with no results up to now. https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?86607-Early-Designer-Clock-Movement-Clues
About the About the Robin, Wow, that's it!! Many thanks!! Could you, please, post more detailed pics of the fence and columns? Also one of the solid fence at the back. I am puzzled about 'fence or not fence' in my case. There are no markings of anything glued to the basement top except two round markings. At first I thought. 'Well, the column bases' but, in second inspection, I realized that they aren't on the vertical of the missing columns at all... About the crest, does your case top have the imprint of something rectangular glued at the apex? (Besides the usual nail holes lining the outer border, marked with red arrows on my pic) Is also the movement inside a brass single fusee? Some details about the movement are being discussed here https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?86679-Is-it-bent. If anybody else owns a similar case or fragments, please, share them here. The more (information), the merrier!:cyclops: Jürgen, Many thanks for making details clearer BTW, Dr. Schneider is a very kind person, he has solved many doubts I posed him concerning my ancient cuckoos and i am very grateful for that. Very neat the clock you have posted on the other thread (Well, we architects usually like what other architects design, specially if they belonged to 'Bauhaus' or surroundings ) Unfortunately, I have never seen anything like that movement Aitor
Aitor, Here are a few more photos. The plinth for the columns sit on the corner of the fence and do not go to the top of the base. This might be where there is some confusion. The columns are also a double twist and painted black like the the bases and capitals. The location of the capitals and the bases , if yours had them in the same location as mine, would have covered the bead molding along the verical front of your case.Look closely and see if you think the bead trim is original. With the trim on your dial and the more exspensive movement, I would think all the bells would have been put on the case, like a fence verse bead trim. If yours had columns , why cover the bead trim from site with the columns. Look also to see if the bead trim on the base looks original as that is where the fence would have been. The movement in mine is not a fusee and not marked. For some reason I can't the photo os it to download. I'll try later, but it is original to the case. If you need more photos let me know, Robin
Many thanks again, Robin! The movement in my clock is unmarked too. Were not for the label at the back, only Dr. Schneider's trained eye would have been able to tell that it is a PHS! Well, the bead trim looks original, but I cannot tell you for totally sure. My case had columns beyond any doubt, though. There is one surviving capital (painted 'ebonised' black like yours) and traces of something glued (the column) to its base. Bear in mind that the columns are a short space apart from the dial surround and, therefore, the bead trim there wouldn't be totally obscured. (BTW, I notice that the lower moulding is missing from the dial surround from your clock, precisely where it would have been obscured by the fence, was ever a moulding glued there?) At the basement, there would be room for a fence behind the bead trim (If I have understood you correctly, the fence in your case is sitting exactly on the rebate where the bead moulding is in mine. Please, confirm this point) but it is the lack of anything glued there which totally puzzles me (Not to speak of that pair of senseless circular glue stains) Which is the height of your fence and columns? Are the columns cut from one piece of solid wood or are they made from two real twisted strands? I suspect that the firms made a lot of variants over the same basic model. Therefore, if any other similar case surfaces here, I would be little surprised to see differences Aitor PS. Now I see the movement, a nice one! My clock is lacking the bird. Does yours have the original one?
Robin, yes your movement is from PHS, also listed in the Schneider Beha book (fig. 551). Aitor, the casemakers by then where in a process of standardzing, pushed by the Furtwangen School for Clockmakers. It looks like they had some standard bases and cases, which were mixed and matched with different applications. Similar bases to the ones shown here were used for larger and taller "cathedral" type cases too.
That's why I was trying to tell, Jürgen, but I have not expressed myself properly The case-makers had several 'standard' elements at hand, but they made lots of different combinations with them, even inside what can be recognized as a rather definite case model. Aitor
Aitor, The fence on mine is in the same place as the bead trim on yours. The only reason I brought this up is the with the lack of any decorative trims or molding at the base of the body of your case and where meets the base make for an unbalanced look(which is okay, just an observation). No transition from the body to the base. It just sits there.There is transititon from the roof to the body. The fence provides that transition. The width of the body of yours maybe wider than mine. If mine had the bead trim it would be hidden by the columns. Looking at the angle from your photos it may be hard for me to tell how much the columns are to the outside of that bead trim .The columns sit on the fence itself. The height of the fence is 2 1/4" and the columns are 7 1/4" including the base and capital. The columns are carved from one piece of wood and ebonized. Thanks for SJ for the ID on the movement. There looks to have been a label that has disappeared long ago. Good Thread! Robin Looking back at your photos.............Tis a mystery! The circle where something that looks like a column base does not match a to where the capital is at the top . Mine doesn't have the square header for the capital. Maybe this had a drop finial of some sort and a vertical finial at the side which would have balance the look?
Many thanks again, Robin! Your measurements add more to the mistery... Fence plus column in your case are 9 1/2" high... Well, in mine, there is 11 3/4" from where the bead trim sits to the attic (square header included) Therefore, my case must be bigger than yours. It measures 20" from gable to floor... I have been sent a pic of another fragmentary case of the same kind. Hopefully, I shall receive pics of more fragments from the same case, but it seems to be lacking many parts. My clock is lacking the bird, could you, please, send me pics froms yours? I agree, I am really enjoying this thread! Aitor
Aitor, Sorry about not getting this to you sooner, I've been out of town. Here is a phot of the bord in mine. It looks original , but I'm afraid he has been shot by a paintball gun. Hope it helps. Great dial on the other front. My clock measures 17 3/4" from base to peak. Robin
Many thanks and don't worry, Robin! It is a nice and slender bird and would certainly look impressive after a good cleaning. I've already found replacemnt pipes and bellows for my clock, but it will be a more difficult task to find an adequate bird. Being your clock also a PHS of a very close kind, I think that my bird should be similar to yours. Definitely, my case is 2 1/4" taller than yours and that means that I am still rather swamped about the columns and their realationship with an hypothetic fence... The dial in my clock is very similar to the one belonging to the front I posted (except for the beaded surround, which is plain in mine) I am currently re-assembling it from the splinters I showed here earlier. I'll keep you updated on the progress. Aitor
No doubt about that, Robin At first I thought your movement was also a fusee one because the winding holes were at the same height on your case and mine. It is interesting because it shows that Heer Bros. made cases slightly shorter for non-fusee movements to leave the winding holes at the same best position. I have finally managed to glue all the dial fragments. The task has been complicated because the wood had shrinked across the grain (The dial is now oval, rather than round. Its width is 5 mm shorter than its height!) and, to make things more difficult, it had warped too... The central carvings are not yet glued, but you can see the overall look of the dial. Missing portions must be filled, cracks disguised and all the wood re-finished. Both celluloid grommets are there but nearly all celluloid numerals have vanished and I've ordered identical bone ones.. Aitor
Aitor, It is looking better than the first photos. We now see that "was" a dial after all. Good Work! Robin
Many thanks, Robin There is still a long way to go, but it is comforting to start seeing how things are recovering shape slowly. Now it would be good if some other case of this model would surface... Aitor
Hello again, Yesterday I finished putting all fragments of the central carving together (except for the small fragment still adhering tho the dial and which I chose to left in place as a guide for positioning the rest) It is amazing how the carver did this (otherwise run-of-the-mill for him) wooden 'lace' without breaking the wood... It is now time to carrry the dial to make-up all the chips and cracks while Roy Tomlinson finishes the new bone numerals. The dial will never look 'as new' but it is the original one and it is undoubtedly re-usable Aitor
A good job, Aitor. The levering marks around the center are something for "Clockmaker's Hall of Shame".
Many thanks Jürgen ! I am afraid that I'll have to live with them... I hope that the accompanying cracks with missing wood chips caused when hour cannon and wheel went through the dial will be easier to conceal... Aitor
More information about the fragmentary case. It still has a column and the column base is at a height which makes clear that there was a fence in origin. I have bought the fragments and shall study the details when they arrive here. Robin, I am starting to think that you were totally right when you said that the beading was a later add to my case and it is occupying the place of the former fence. Moreover, I have noticed faint markings on my case at the rear, where the 'blind' fence panels would attach to the sides... Maybe even the pair of strange circular markings on the plinth could be secundary: Imagine that somebody removed the fence from the case or it was lost. Then, both columns would be hanging in the air... ugly. To make things look better, beaded rows were added and columns removed (except for the capitals which remained as some sort of hanging finials) and then glued to the base... When I started this thread I thought that my case model would be a common one, even reflected on PHS catalogues, but now i am starting to see that there are not many extant similar ones... Aitor
Aitor, Look and see if there are any signs, on the bottom of the base to the column, appearing that it ever sat on the corner of a fence. That is a strange set up, but that is where the columns on mine rest. Robin
Robin, Be sure that I'll do That's why I have bought all the fragments. BTW, perhaps I'll receive pics of a further case. It would be really nice! Aitor
Looks like your headed in the right direction. IfI can help with info from mine let me know. Take care and Keep up the good work, Robin
Who knows?... Could you, in the meantime, be persuaded to show a pic of it? (or send me a PM if you prefer) Aitor
apologies for the crudity of the pics. the site will not take GOOD pictures into the uploader. send me your email and i will send some better ones...these are all haas birds form signed clocks. i need a cuckoo / quail 2pc gong set and a small pulley for the chains of a weight driven clock...about 1.25 to 1.5 inches in diameter wheel. with suitable slot for a chain to roll in.... standard on the chain size for an early one day BF cuckoo..... let me now.
Hello again and Happy Holidays to everybody!! I've been rather busy with other matters and my clock projects have been 'lagging behind schedule'... Anyway, I can report some progress on the PHS shelf clock. The dial returned finished from the restorer and here is a pic with the beautiful bone numerals by Roy Tomlinson (Not yet glued, just leaning there for the pic) The second case fragments also arrived. It has the same dimensions than mine. Therefore, both cases I own belong to the bigger variant, as opposite to the other, more complete ones, that belong to the smaller variant. Apart from slight differences in the carving (but, to tell the truth, not two of the cases are completely identical), the two variants look the same until height is measured. Another collector kindly sent me pics from an old eBay auction. The clock still retained its topper and it looked exactly like that on the old Geb. Heer catalogue pic!!Nutjob Happyness was shortlived, though. The apex is broken and the pics have not enough resolution as to allow an exact copy to be made. Nearly two years after my last post in this thread I wonder if anybody knows of another more detailed pics of a case like mine, still retaining its topper... P.S. I've found a suitable bird too. Aitor
Very welcome! I do but its missing the EXACT little cleft that yours is missing. HA! I think really you could use any of these templates for the small bit missing on your top.
Hello and many, many thanks, again, Jeff! Those last pics solve my problem about the topper. I shall send them to my carver, with your permission. I've just returned home after having had the (long) new year meal with my wife's family. I have written my former post in a hurry before we left. Now I can explain myself a little better (or I'll try to do so, at least) I have postulated in this thread that Geb. Heer produced two variants of this model of case. Mine belongs to the 'bigger' size and most other examples (included the old photo from the catalogue) appearing here belong to the 'smaller' size. Apart from the sizes there are small differences in the design, being the most apparent the carvings on the skirt. My surprise has been big when I've seen that pic of a clock WITH A TOTALLY DIFFERENT DESIGN of the lower 'fence.' That's mainly why I am so interested on having more pics of that clock if possible. My clock also lacks the 'fence'. I had supposed that it would be exactly like the 'fences' on the 'smaller' sized cases, but I have never seen a 'fence' belongign to the 'bigger' size case. I know that casemakers combinated freely precarved elements they had in store, but what I have seen of this cases up till now is rather consistent. Aitor
Hello again, I've started with he first steps to prepare the case to be restored. I've stripped it from the added beadestrips and from some bodgy old repairs. The right side of the bird window broke sometime (the would acccount for the lose of the door's right side) and it was badly mended, smeared in glue... and backed in cardboard I have had to remove all of them (the glue wasn't a reversible one), re-position the fragments correctly and back the fretwork with wood veneer. I've left for the restorer to fill the gaps and give all an uniform finish. For the first time since I bought the clock, I've been able to check the movement's position inside the case. The movement is very heavy and the system of screwing it to the wooden front didn't work too well. I am envisaging a more secure (though less period accurate) system of attachment. Slowly, the clock isgoing upwards, after having touched bottom... Aitor
Hello again, I've just finished the design for the topper my clock needs. I've tried to stick to the available information (five blurry photos, four of them belonging to toppers with the tip missing) to the maximum, but accuracy won't surely be 100% My problem now is finding decent pics of the equally missing lower fence. I supposed that it would be identical on both sizes of this model of case, but Jeff has proved it wasn't after he posted here a pic of a clock exactly like mine with a different fretting. Now I must wait until more detailed photos surface... Aitor
Yes i apologize, but like i said, the clocks were all mine but that one.. I have asked for better photos and not heard back. the drawing is great. As you know and keep this in mind, NO 2 were identical. I think you are over thinking it a bit.
Jeff, No need to apologize at all, just the opposite. I am very thankful because you have let me know of a nearly complete clock belonging to the 'big' variant of this type of case. In general terms, I can only agree with you about not two BF cuckoo cases being the same. Notwithstanding, I think I have a point to prove that this was a model of case Gebr. Heer made consistently for some time and that it had two variants: 'big' and small'. My apologies because I've tried to explain that in several posts in a haphazard way. Let's see if I find a litlle time in the following days to prepare some photos of the different cases to make a comparative. Aitor
Well, I'll try to explain my theory comparing the features of several cases. Dr Schneider has pointed out that a cuckoo case model appearing on Gebrüdern Heer casemakers catalogue of year 1865 could correspond to what is called in the contemporary sources 'Galeriekasten' (Gallery cases) Though I have not found yet a case exactly like that, I have been able to locate (thanks to the kindness of several fellow collectors) several very similar ones, which I think can be grouped in two sub-types. (I'm having troubles with the pic uploader :bang: and better I'll split what was intended as a single post in three) Aitor
There is a 'small size' type. Its height from ground to gable tip (unfortunately, I have no exact information on the topper's height) is 17 3/4" I think that this size of case was intended to house non-fusee movements. Apart from the size, the main specific features of the type ar marked in red on this pic: Here are four different cases. The first one houses a PHS brass movement and, the last one, a wooden cage Beha movement, both non-fusee ones. Aitor
There is a 'big size' type. Its height from ground to gable tip (again without topper) is 20". I think that this type was intended to house fusee movements. Apart from the size, the main specific features of the type ar marked in red on this pic: Here are three different cases belonging to this type. First and second are mine. Teh second one, subject of this long thread, houses a PHS single-fusee brass movement. It woudl be just fantastic if more cases would surface or even only if the seven I already know could be examined in detail Aitor
Many thanks. Jeff! In the end, the case will have too many new parts for my taste. The case will need to be re-finished and so hopefully, those new areas won't yell 'Hey, I,m new!' too much... Had I been aware of so many missing pars when I purchased the clock, maybe I'd have hesitated a little more. Anyway Gothic + fusee + cuckoo is a 'deadly' combination for me... Aitor
Let's continue... As I told you, the heavy single-fusee brass movement was attached to the front of the case in the customary manner by means of (six) screws. The front mahogany panel, 8 mm thick, was backed by another board 5 mm thick. The combined thickness of both sums 13 mm and is a good one for doing the job, but, in fact, the front board is heavily fretted and carved, leaving only the weak inner board for holding the movement at nearly all of the six attachment points... To make things worse, the life of my clock seems to have been a hard one, and you can count three holes from ripped screws for each of the attachment points. I hate to depart from original solutions but, this time I think that I have to do it. Prior to find a way to reattach the movement to the case front, the first step has been to redirect most part of the weight of the movement to the bottom of the case. That way, the shearing stress at the attachment points will descend to nearly null. A pair of wooden blocks will do the job. Next work will be reattaching the holding brackets to the back of the front panel. The panel is as full of holes as a gruyere cheese now. It would be a straightforward solution to fill the holes wiht a mixture of sawdsut and glue to reuse the wood screws, but I don't trust that will be enough... I plan to use thin brass bands (screwed to the wood where it is intact) acting as nuts for metal screws. I've made a trial, spanning just one bracket, but I intend to use a brass band for each two brackets. Opinions, please?(i) Aitor
I like your solution, Aitor. For the health of the clock, and to ensure it survives a few more generations of use, this looks like the perfect solution to the problem this clock has had since new.
