Help with noise Seth Thomas Banjo clock motor

Discussion in 'Electric Horology' started by Jmurrell, Jul 16, 2017.

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  1. Jmurrell

    Jmurrell Registered User
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    I am working on a Seth Thomas Banjo electric clock. I have taken the movement apart bushed and lubed it and I took the shaft out of the electric motor cleaned and oiled it. I put the clock back together and it runs great and keeps time but the motor is noisy. I know very little about fixing these motors so any help I can get would help. I will try and post a picture of the clock.
    John Murrell

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  2. coldwar

    coldwar Registered User

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    You can install new bushings in both ends of the motor, but the tapered reamers we typically use to size the new bushings spoil the potential for lasting noise free operation. If you have the mech and motor I think you do, there are some replacement motor assys around - why not inquire with the suppliers. They may not know by clock type and the numbers, you might have to do a visual comparison, and transfer your drive gear from old to new.

    If by chance you have one of the late production jobs with the bottle cap capsule, you or someone might rebuild it.
     
  3. Jmurrell

    Jmurrell Registered User
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    What suppliers would you suggest that might have these parts? Most of the time I deal with Timesavers, Merritts, Ronnel and Butterworth but I have not seen anything like what I need in their catalog's.
    I might try to bush it but I have not done one of these motors before.
    Thanks alot
    John Murrell
     
  4. Jmurrell

    Jmurrell Registered User
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    I need some help with trying to repair the motor bushings as the ends are closed which means pointed reamers would go through the end if I could ream it, and one is in the end of the motor requiring the motor needing to be taken apart to get at it.
    I have not done one of these before and I am lost on where to begin.
    I have taken the clock back apart and I am posting pictures of the motor.
    John Murrell
    311128.jpg 311129.jpg 311130.jpg 311131.jpg 311132.jpg
     

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  5. Jmurrell

    Jmurrell Registered User
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    I managed to drill the one motor bushing in the movement and was able to insert a bushing in that end. Now I am down to the bushing in the motor which has to come apart and I am not quite sure just what I need to do in order to drill and bush this side.
    Any help would be appreciated.
    John Murrell
     
  6. David S

    David S Registered User
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    Is the one in the motor end bell in a blind hole? Is it possible to pull the old bushing out?

    David
     
  7. BLKBEARD

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    One widely used method to remove the Bearing/Bushing from the Bell End of an electric motor is to make a dowel of wood as tight as you can fit, but still free moving.

    Fill the bore with grease, line up the dowel with the bore and give the dowel a sharp blow with a hammer.
    The dowel will force the grease under the bearing and the hydraulic pressure will lift the bearing from the bell end.
    It's best to put a paper towel with the dowel poking though a hole when you do this to keep grease from shooting out at you.

    Another method is to thread the bushing with a bottoming tap and screw in a bolt to pull it out with.

    I've never used either method on a wee little clock motor, but it works on 1/2" & 3/4" shafted motors.
    It should be the same, just scaled down.

    HTH
     
  8. David S

    David S Registered User
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    That is what I was getting at. I have used the bottoming tap on small bearings and also just ordinary self taping or sheet metal screws which will bite in.

    David
     
  9. Jmurrell

    Jmurrell Registered User
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    #9 Jmurrell, Jul 22, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2017
    Before I posted this I missed a couple of responses, but to be honest I didn't know the bushing would come out. I thought it was part of the cup that it sets in. To me it looked to be peened into the motor case same as the the other one in the movement but I am not sure because I haven't been able to get the motor apart yet to get at the bushing.
    John
     
  10. Jmurrell

    Jmurrell Registered User
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    I managed to file down the raised areas that hold the rings on the field and coil assembly but now I cannot separate the top of the field off the coil. I don't know if it was glued on or how it was attached but I don't want to mess it up by inserting a screwdriver between the field and the coil. Any ideas what to do as if I cannot get the metal field plate off the coil I will not be able to get at the bushing.
    Thanks for any help
    John
     
  11. David S

    David S Registered User
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    John, Just so I am clear is it the bushing that is in the piece on the right, in the second picture of post #4. I thought when looking at post 4 you had the motor apart.

    David
     
  12. Jmurrell

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    Yes that is the bushing I need to fix but it is not the one that you can see it is the one underneath that in the bottom of the motor. Unfortunately you cannot see it in the picture. I did take the rings off field assembly but I still can't get the metal plate off above the bushing as it seems to be connected to the coil somehow and I didn't want to pry on it because I didn't want to ruin it.
    John
     
  13. Jmurrell

    Jmurrell Registered User
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    I decided to post another picture of the motor after I took the rings off. I marked the bushing you were asking about but the rear motor bushing is beneath this one. The problem is even after taking the rings off I can't get the field & coil assembly apart to get to that bushing.
    In giving thought to this would it work just as well if I forgot about the rear bushing and just put a bushing in the one that is marked, unless there is a way to separate the field and coil unit that I don't know about. Do you think that would work?
    John

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  14. BLKBEARD

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    I may be missing something since I'm only looking at a photo and don't have the physical part in my hand.
    It doesn't seem like any further disassembly is required. The Bushing/Bearing looks accessible, and should be removable by pulling or hydraulic pressure.

    From the photo it looks like the Bearing is the silver cylinder inside the darker cylinder.
     
  15. David S

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    I think I am starting to get the picture. Looking at the rotor I see a rather long shaft, so you mean there are two stacked bushings in the piece that you marked, one below the visible one?

    I am surprised that no one here has worked on one of these before.

    David
     
  16. Jmurrell

    Jmurrell Registered User
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    Yes David there are two stacked bushings one above the other.
    John
     
  17. David S

    David S Registered User
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    Our member here davefr, I believe is well versed in telechron motors, I am surprised he hasn't responded.

    David
     
  18. Jmurrell

    Jmurrell Registered User
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    Thanks guys I really do appreciate your help thus far.
    I am really thinking about just bushing the pivot that you can see and not the one underneath.
    To be honest I am not sure that this pivot was meant to be a bushing as it is made of the same metal as the rest of the motor case and not brass as I thought most bushings were made of.
    I do think however that it could be drilled out and a brass bushing installed but my biggest concern is that I don't know how to keep the metal shavings from going down into the back bushing and the coil while I am drilling.
    There is really no way to gain access to that area to catch the shavings. I could blow air down through the hole that I might drill but I don't think that would work very well to get the shavings out after drilling.
    What about placing a magnet beside the drill bit while drilling. Just a thought but not much of one.
    Any ideas?
    John
     
  19. David S

    David S Registered User
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    Hi John.
    Just finished entertaining my kids here at the RV park so thought I would check back in. I am afraid I have to stop here. I have never worked with this type of motor, and without having it in my hand to fondle and savor, I wouldn't want to give any bad advice.

    What continues to amaze me is that there is no one else here that has encountered and successfully overhauled one of these.

    However please keep us informed of your progress.

    David
     
  20. Jmurrell

    Jmurrell Registered User
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    Thanks for all the help I really appreciate it.
    John
     
  21. BLKBEARD

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    A common way to capture chips is to liberally coat the drill bit with axle grease. Drill a little, Back out wipe off grease & chips.
    Re-grease the drill bit & repeat process till you reach your desired depth.

    Do not drill all the way through the Bell End!!

    If you drill strait through, there will be nothing stopping the shaft from wandering out. You'll lose all control of end play.

    Have you tried greasing that bearing & re-assembling the motor? Maybe all it needs is a little TLC?
     
  22. Jmurrell

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    #22 Jmurrell, Jul 23, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2017
    Yes I did lube the motor bushing after I first bushed the movement and the clock ran fine but it makes considerable noise.
    As far as that upper bushing it really doesn't support much because it is so loose.

    Sounds like that's is the ticket to deal with the metal shavings, but if I do this I won't be drilling through the bell end as this bushing is in the center of the motor and not on the bottom end. The one on the bell end is the one I cannot get at because I cannot get the bottom and center half of the motor apart.

    I'll have to stop and think about it before I proceed as when I sometimes jump in I make mistakes but that's not to say I won't make one anyway.

    Thanks for the info
    John

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  23. Jmurrell

    Jmurrell Registered User
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    I am going to post another picture of the motor and try better to explain what my problem is and if my solution will work. I would appreciate any help I can get.
    I cannot get the upper and lower halves of the motor apart. That is the part below the coil and the part above the coil. This means I cannot put a bushing in the lower half of the motor. My idea is to forget the bottom and put a bushing in the upper half above the coil where the armature goes through. Can this be done or will this mess up the running of the motor?
    John

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  24. David S

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    John on the bottom plate what is that, that I see that looks like a cover over the bearing? Can you show a direct on picture of the bottom plate direct on?

    Also I PM'd davefr to see if he can help. I know he has contributed on Telechron motors and not sure what this one is, and it don't look like he has visited this thread.

    David
     
  25. davefr

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    #25 davefr, Jul 25, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
    John,
    Ignore my earlier post if it's still there. I decided to sacrifice one of my ST motor cores in the name of horological science. Here's how the bushing assembly is put together.

    The entire carrier unit can be pressed out from the back plate. Grind down the rim with a Dremel and press it out.

    Now you'll need to press out the little end cap on the back plate side of the bushing carrier. It's hardened steel and can't be drilled. (don't ask me how I know this!!)

    Inside the unit are three brass bushings. One in the front and two in the back. I believe the back one is only partially drilled so it stops the rotor shaft end play. Ignore the bushing bores in my images. I mangled them up pretty good. Image #3 show how they're stacked up inside the carrier.

    These brass bushings come out pretty easily if you catch the edge with a small punch. Remove the back two first and then the front one. Replace or rebush the bushings and you should be good to go.

    Hope this helps. Let me know if you have any questions. 311495.jpg 311496.jpg 311497.jpg 311498.jpg 311499.jpg 311500.jpg
     
  26. Jmurrell

    Jmurrell Registered User
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    Thanks David I got davefr's reply and I am going to try that if I can and if need I will post another picture for you
    John
     
  27. Jmurrell

    Jmurrell Registered User
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    Thanks davefr I am going to try and figure this our as soon as I finish working on my daughters birthday party. I will let you know what I have figured out or screwed up in the process.
    John
     
  28. David S

    David S Registered User
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    Hi Dave thank you for coming in and helping John. I figured if anyone had some good advice it would be you.

    David
     
  29. Jmurrell

    Jmurrell Registered User
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    #29 Jmurrell, Jul 25, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
    Well I have ground down the areas on the carrier that were peened over and I have tried to tap the end back through the motor but I cannot seem to get it to move. Maybe I not doing something that I need to in order to get this to free up. I tried to push it out in a vice and all I accomplished was to push the bottom of the motor up in. The area of the carrier in the motor seems to have solder around all the joints do I need to dig all this out and if so I am not sure how I am going to do that. Any suggestions?
    John
     
  30. davefr

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    #30 davefr, Jul 26, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2017
    John,
    I used a 3/8" pin punch, hammer and an aluminum plate to set the coil assembly on. It did take some pretty good taps.

    You could also put the assembly in a freezer for an hour or two and then quickly go around just the outer circumference of the plate with a propane/butane torch. (that might loosen it up slightly). That's the same process used for stubborn press fit bearing assemblies. Go easy because you don't want to burn the coil.

    Good luck 311639.jpg
     
  31. Jmurrell

    Jmurrell Registered User
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    Hi Davidfr I managed to get the carrier out but in the process the plastic that was over the coil crumbled and fell out in pieces along with the dark gray matter under the carrier that is pictured above your coil.. Does this matter?
    Now that I have the carrier out how do you suggest I get the end cap out as I am not sure quite what to do at this point.
    John
     
  32. davefr

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    You need to make sure the coil's wiring is all insulated from the frame of the motor. You should be able to check with an ohmeter to make sure there's no leakage path from coil to frame. You can always use insulating varnish if there's any concern.

    The end cap get's punched out from inside out with a small diameter pin punch. It's also pretty stubborn.

    I'd be glad to send you my motor parts in the earlier images. I have no further use for them. The carrier and coil assembly look usable. Just let me know.
     
  33. Jmurrell

    Jmurrell Registered User
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    Thanks I am going to try and get the end cap of and the bushings out, and repair if possible. I'll let you know. If I need the parts I'll gladly pay you something for them.
    John
     
  34. Jmurrell

    Jmurrell Registered User
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    Well Davefr, I punched out the three bottom bushings and the end cap as you said was very difficult to get out. The problem is that the end cap went flying and I cannot find it. I am also not sure just what it looked like as I cannot seem to find it in my shop. I am going to try and sweep the floor with the hope of finding it. If I cannot find it is it possible to make something to cover the end? Do you have a picture of your end cap?
    John
     
  35. davefr

    davefr Registered User
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    It's the little disc (bottom right) in the first image of post #25. I think it's only purpose it to keep the two bushings from coming out of the carrier. I think just about anything would work in it's place. I see no reason why it's hardened. I don't think the shaft even goes that deep to touch it.
     
  36. Jmurrell

    Jmurrell Registered User
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    #36 Jmurrell, Jul 29, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2017
    Thanks davefr I tore my entire clock shop apart today looking for what I thought would be a small disk of some sort and could find nothing. It always amazes me how it disappears and you might find it months later after you no longer need it. At any rate my shop got cleaned, and my wife thought it was long overdue. Go figure.

    You know your right about the shaft not touching that end piece because on mine the bottom bushing has a ball bearing in it.

    John
     
  37. Jmurrell

    Jmurrell Registered User
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    I managed to bush the top bushing in the carrier and the middle bushing really didn't show that much wear so I left it alone. I also made an end cap out of brass for the bottom of the carrier.
    Now I am needing to wait until I get the insulating varnish that I ordered. I want to tell you I had a heck of a time finding in my area. None of the electric suppliers had any nor did Lowes of Home Depot. I searched on line and found two electric suppliers but both of them said they no longer carried it and to their knowledge much of it had been banned. At any rate I did finally find it on Ebay but was a bit reluctant to order it because of the sellers ratings but I decided if I was going to get it I had to make an order. If and when I get the Varnish I will put this back together and see how it works.
    John
     
  38. flynwill

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    Not sure if this is the product you were looking for: https://www.amazon.com/MG-Chemicals-GLPT-Insulating-Varnish/dp/B00S4H8V1Q but it is what I've always used for that sort of thing and it's been around for 50+ years.
     
  39. Jmurrell

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    Sorry it took me some time to get back to this site but I had to wait to get the varnish and in the process my computer hard drive crashed costing me almost $300.00 to get a new one installed.

    At any rate this is the product I ended up buying. I do have a few questions about the varnish. How hazardous is this stuff to use as the descriptions are loaded with warnings? Can I just brush it on and then leave it air dry?

    I also need to ask what would you recommend to lube the bushings with? I normally use clock oil but should I use a light grease instead?

    John
     
  40. davefr

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    John,
    The very few times I've used the insulating varnish I just brush it on any exposed wires and let it dry. (Sometimes two light coats).

    That motor has a recessed area between the two bushings and I assume it's a reservoir for lubricant. I'd choose something that's not too light in viscosity so it won't seep out. Maybe a heavier weight clock movement oil. (I'm not a fan of grease)

    How did the bushings turn out? Did you make them or could you find a size that works?
     
  41. Jmurrell

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    Hi davfr, On the movement end of the clock I was able to make a bushing that should work and on the other end I only had to replace the top bushing and I found one that I think will work. My biggest concern is how well the upper and lower bushings will line when I go to put it back together, as I could see it is possible to not get the carrier back in line with the bushings in the movement as the only thing that keeps it in place is when you peen the bottom over the plate underneath the coil.
    As far as a lubricant I have some turbine oil for electric motors which is heaver that clock oil but I really don't know if it will stay in.
    John
     
  42. Jmurrell

    Jmurrell Registered User
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    Hi Davefr, I ended up needing to make another bushing in the carrier but when I was putting the carrier in the plate of the clock the wire on the coil snapped off. I then started taking the carrier back out so I could remove the coil when the other wire on the coil snapped off.
    I guess I have really screwed it up. I also do not have much left on the bottom of the carrier to peen over any more.
    Do you by chance have a good coil or is it possible to repair this one and do you have an extra carrier and motor case that I could purchase from you.
    Thanks John
     
  43. davefr

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    John,
    Send me a PM with your address and I'll send you the coil, carrier, etc from the motor in my images. No charge.
     
  44. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    Maybe you could hold it upside-down so any chips would fall out as you drilled. But soft metal chips shouldn't cause trouble anyway.

    M Kinsler
     
  45. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    I'm glad you can get a replacement coil, etc. This is the great hazard of working on old electric clocks, for old wire insulation breaks down, becoming fragile and brittle, and so the motor leads break right off.

    My own approach is to lubricate a noisy motor and hope that silences it, for any attempt to take it apart for a rebuild is likely to fail, at least for me. And when that happens, it's time to install some sort of a new movement, possibly including the hated quartz.

    M Kinsler
     
  46. Jmurrell

    Jmurrell Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Apr 3, 2011
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    Retired mental health worker
    Southeastern Ohio
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    Hi divefr, I got the parts and installed new bushings which I was able to use from my old motor. I then installed the movement and was just plagued with problems. I couldn't get it to run after installing the motor and took me half the evening to figure out what had happened. Your motor was slightly different than the one I had and it was rubbing against the gear shaft just behind the motor. I took it back out and tried to turn the top of the motor as there was a cutout in mine to allow it to clear the shaft. That didn't work so I had to file a cutout that would allow me to install the motor and not have it hit the gear shaft.
    I then tried to start the motor and it still wouldn't run and after some hair pulling I found that if I put a little washer under one of the motor supports it would run.
    At any rate I took the motor back out and oiled everything and put it back in only to find that the motor runs backwards. I know some motors have a self correcting feature but I'll be darned if I can get it to go the right direction. Is there something I can do that I am missing to make this happen?
    By the way thanks a lot for the parts.
    John
     
  47. davefr

    davefr Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 29, 2008
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    Semi Retired Engr. Mgr - Currently Rebuilding Tele
    Oregon
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    John,
    I have no experience with these motors but if you look under the top of the rotor there's a little bar that seems to rotate + or - 180 degrees. I have a feeling that bar is what determines the start direction from a shaded pole affect.

    That's just a guess. I have no idea how you set it to reverse the startup direction.

    Good luck,
    Dave
     
  48. Jmurrell

    Jmurrell Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Apr 3, 2011
    589
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    18
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    Retired mental health worker
    Southeastern Ohio
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    Thanks Dave, I thought the bar had that effect but I have no idea either how to cause it to change direction. This project has been a real experience and I have learned a lot. Now if I can just figure out this last hurdle I might have it made.
    John
     

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