Help with identification of this vintage watch?

Discussion in 'Wrist Watches' started by hyperhad, Aug 20, 2020.

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  1. hyperhad

    hyperhad Registered User
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    #1 hyperhad, Aug 20, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2020
    I bought this 10 years ago, at the beginning of my interest in watch collecting began. There are some hallmarks on the inside of the case, but nothing on the movement. I did some searching, and found out the following:

    1918 Trench watch (sellers info)
    31mm
    Welded on wire lugs
    9ct case (George Stockwell Sponsor)
    London Import
    markings from previous servicing
    stepped porcelain dial, painted hour markings with minutes marked at each hour. There are no names or markings on the movement
    unmarked pin-set movement
    I think I see two jewels
    I found some similar movement images online. This looks like some others identified as being "cheaply made". I found an image of a Junghans movement that looks similar.

    DSC_1483.JPG View attachment 606980 View attachment 606981 DSC_1463ID.jpg DSC_1473ID.jpg
     
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  2. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    #2 Adam Harris, Aug 20, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2020
    Nice watch
    Enamel dial with original RADIUM lume. single sunk dial.
    Movement looks a pin lever escapement
    Hands are not original.
    London import mark, I can not make out the year mark but 1918 is a 'C' in a cartouche

    Regards
     
  3. D.th.munroe

    D.th.munroe Registered User

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    Very cool
    Movement looks very similar to a silver 1917 one I have, can't seem to find it right now but it's a center seconds jeweled lever with an odd train layout.

    Actually I was trying to find it the other day to post on here to see if anyone recognized the movement.
    Dan
     
  4. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    Center sweep second is pretty rare in 1917, indeed I think only GALLET had?
    The Ops watch does not have that
     
  5. D.th.munroe

    D.th.munroe Registered User

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    Actually looking again I think that one may be a cylinder.
    But the train layout does indicate that it is a center sweep seconds just missing the hand.
    Dan
     
  6. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    Yes it could be cylinder - pretty sure not a detached lever
    Regards
     
  7. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Dan,

    I think you may be right about the cylinder, but I can't see any sign of a centre seconds mechanism, the centre arbor isn't hollow.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  8. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    Agreed
    No way its indirect (or direct) center sweep seconds
     
  9. D.th.munroe

    D.th.munroe Registered User

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  10. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    #10 Adam Harris, Aug 20, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2020
    Where is the center seconds hand?
    I do not believe direct center seconds was invented till after 1940s (sorry I could not find my notes). Hamilton did not have till 1948!
    But in 1900 to 1930 it was INDIRECT and your movement is not that.

    See here
    GALLET - WWI 'nurses' Sweep Seconds Wristwatch
    AND HERE
    GALLET - Early Centre Sweep Seconds
     
  11. D.th.munroe

    D.th.munroe Registered User

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    You have to look closely at the under dial of the movement in that post. If you are a watchmaker you will see what I mean.
     
  12. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Dan,

    Yes, I do see what you mean from the WUS posting, but not from post #1 in this thread. There are two invalid attachments there, which may be the under dial work.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  13. D.th.munroe

    D.th.munroe Registered User

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  14. hyperhad

    hyperhad Registered User
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    Thank you everyone for your information!

    Any idea who/where the movement was made?

    Could this be called a trench watch?

    Chris:)
     
  15. D.th.munroe

    D.th.munroe Registered User

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    I don't know who made them, yet, pretty sure it's swiss though.
    I did find similar movement that is marked Numa Jeannin.

    I think the date letter looks like an "a" so would be 1916-1917.

    It is the right age and luminous so you could call it a "trench watch" and it may have been used as one.
    Dan
     
  16. D.th.munroe

    D.th.munroe Registered User

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    Also apologies if I came off as rude there.

    Adam as for direct drive center seconds not being invented until the 1940s, they were used in pocket watches and so called "center seconds chronographs" (but just hack watches really) at least 100 years before that. I probably have 2 dozen.
    Dan
     
  17. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    No rudeness taken
    I only talk wrist watches.
    Regards
     
  18. D.th.munroe

    D.th.munroe Registered User

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    Well I guess I have 2 of these.
    The one I was looking for had all its parts, including the seconds hand, had different simpler dial and a year later.

    Still no clue of a maker and the radium is loose, so I'm not going to take it fully apart until I can deal with that safely.
    Dan

    15981345300147966258983241030436.jpg 15981345663308824510859528723129.jpg 15981345969282299456330564278211.jpg
     
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  19. D.th.munroe

    D.th.munroe Registered User

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  20. Tomxhar

    Tomxhar Registered User

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    It's pretty obvious that all examples-even those missing their seconds hands- have centre seconds.
    Only centre seconds watch dials have the outer dial markers divided into fifths of a second...:rolleyes:
    There were several makers of centre seconds watches during and before WW1.
     
  21. D.th.munroe

    D.th.munroe Registered User

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    Well In a bad picture from Jobin (wish i had a copy but way too much money) there is an A. Schild 14''' but the picture is too blurry to see more numbers, it mostly resembles the numa jeannin and t.j.f ones (which were identical)
     
  22. Tomxhar

    Tomxhar Registered User

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    Good find, and sizeable at 14 lignes!
    I have a friend who has a 1909 direct drive centre seconds, he will post on his chosen site soon (hopefully!) and he tells me it is different from the examples you and the OP have posted. So several makers of direct drive centre seconds wrist watches during the earliest part of the 20th. C.
    This thread seems to have gone quiet for some reason, I would have thought that there would be more interest after statements made earlier regarding the belief (or lack of) in early direct drive centre seconds wrist watches.
    A shame really, I find this subject very interesting.
     
  23. D.th.munroe

    D.th.munroe Registered User

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    I hope he chooses the nawcc Tom:)
    This is quite interesting to me as well.
    I'm not sure about the others, but mine is only a 13 1/2'''.
    The A.S 14''' (I found a clearer picture) only in cylinder, but is cal 403 ref 1400, was just the closest to the other less (1 or 4 maybe?) jeweled ones. Also in a book from 20 years later.
    The op's appears to be a 10 jewel cylinder and mine was a 15 jewel lever and better made than the cheap a.s cylinders of that age that I have.
     
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