Help with HAC Mantel Clock movement reassembly

JohnUK

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Hi I am new to the forum looking for assistance with reassembly a movement that was taken apart without any pictures being taken

I have all the pieces but no idea how to put them back together - does anyone have any materials to assist please ocbRGFeZQzCP38ar2pUENA.jpg
 
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JohnUK

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In addition one of the springs has no tension in it - i assume its either broken or become detached from the centre spindle!! can they be replaced too?
 

wow

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In addition one of the springs has no tension in it - i assume its either broken or become detached from the centre spindle!! can they be replaced too?
Yes, you must replace or repair the spring first. Open the barrel and show us what you find.
 
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shutterbug

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The spring might just be detached. It could also be broken at the other end. The best thing would be to remove it from the barrel and clean it up. Then lube it with fresh lubrication and put it back. You'd need a spring winder for that, and there's instructions on how to make one at the top of the forum. After you get that preliminary work done on both springs, I'm sure we can help you get it back together.
 

JohnUK

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Thank you - I think it still attached at the other end to the barrel. there appears to be a hole in the spring at the spindle end - what would you use to reattach it?
 

wow

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Thank you WOW Looks that the spindle has become detached from the spring.
John, it is not broken and should be fine to use, however, it is a mess. You should remove both springs and clean all the gunk off with naphtha, brake cleaner, or some kind of degreaser. The barrels should be cleaned well also. Then the springs lubricated and reinstalled in the barrels. Once that is done you can begin assembly of everything else. If you do not have a spring winder you can do this by hand if you are very careful. Wear gloves, use a pair of needle nosed pliers and pull the spring out slowly from the center till you can grasp it with your fingers. Then pull out one round at a time till you reach the outer end. Then carefully remove the end from the retainer. Putting it back in is harder than removing, but it can be done. You must have a firm grip and strong hands to do it.
 
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JohnUK

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John, it is not broken and should be fine to use, however, it is a mess. You should remove both springs and clean all the gunk off with naphtha, brake cleaner, or some kind of degreaser. The barrels should be cleaned well also. Then the springs lubricated and reinstalled in the barrels. Once that is done you can begin assembly of everything else. If you do not have a spring winder you can do this by hand if you are very careful. Wear gloves, use a pair of needle nosed pliers and pull the spring out slowly from the center till you can grasp it with your fingers. Then pull out one round at a time till you reach the outer end. Then carefully remove the end from the retainer. Putting it back in is harder than removing, but it can be done. You must have a firm grip and strong hands to do it.
Thanks - will do - how do I reattach the the spindle to the end of the spring?
 

roughbarked

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If you are doing it manually, you will likely need a strong pair of round nosed pliers to gently but forcefully curl the inner circle back into shape. It is a lot easier if the mainspring is out of the barrel and you are going to have to clean the mainspring and reoil it anyway.
The inner coil is a circular loop that ensures that the inner hole hooks onto the tab in the centre of the barrel arbor. You can see that the inner ring needs to be just the size that the arbor can slip through but still catch the arbor hook so that when you wind the arbor the spring catches on and winds up.
 

Willie X

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When a mainspring "unhooks" like this, it is always because the winding ratchet has failed in some way. The inner coils are badly distorted (uneven), so check them closely for cracks. Willie X
 

JohnUK

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OK Thank you - will come back, once I have a both springs and I am ready to put the clock back together
 

Willie X

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Looking more closely, it appears that the winding arbor may have been forced backwards. This often happens with a disengaged click, ratchet out of play condition. Willie X
 

JohnUK

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Hi Guys So my springs are sorted so ready to start putting this movement back together
 

JohnUK

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If anyone has an assembly guide and knows what goes where from my initial post of bits, i would be most grateful
 

JohnUK

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Thanks - will do - how do I reattach the the spindle to the end of the spring?
Hi I have the two springs ready and would like to put the clock movement back together - would you be able to help me please, as I do not know where to start thanks
 

shutterbug

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The easiest way we can help is for you to put the parts against a white background and number each part. Then we'll be able to tell you where each numbered part goes in the movement. For the most part, the bigger wheels go at the bottom and work up to the smaller parts on top.
 

JohnUK

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The easiest way we can help is for you to put the parts against a white background and number each part. Then we'll be able to tell you where each numbered part goes in the movement. For the most part, the bigger wheels go at the bottom and work up to the smaller parts on top.
Thank you, here are all the parts as you say with a white background

ocbRGFeZQzCP38ar2pUENA.jpg
 

Fitzclan

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I assume you kept the springs with their respective barrels. Usually there will be some kind of designation scratched into the barrel caps or somewhere on the barrel such as T & S. The barrels may wind in the same direction or may turn in opposite directions so it is important to get them right. If you look at the click ratchets on the front of the plate you should be able to tell if they turn in the same direction as the clicks will only allow turning one way.
if you situate the front plate (the one with the corner posts and flanges that allow for attachment to a case), so that the winding arbor holes are toward the bottom, the Strike side of the movement will be on the right side of the plate, and the time side on the left.
You will need some kind of stand, a roll of duct tape or similar can work, in order to keep the winding arbors and minute arbor above the bench.
I would remove the hammer arbor from the rear plate as it will make reassembly easier. Note where it goes.
I am noticing that there are no motion works in your photo. You will not be able to successfully assemble without them. This would be the long arbor and tube that goes over it and through the center hole holding the hands. (Edit: Looks like the motion works are there, not to worry!)
Next inspect the clicks on the front of the plate. Once you get the spring barrels in their proper positions you can begin to separate the wheels into time and strike, putting each next To the plate, time on left, strike on right.
Anything that has a pin, fan, a cam or a double wheel, is part of the strike train. The time side being much simpler will have plain wheels, excepting the sharply pointed escape wheel. No pins here, just pointy teeth.
This will get you started in the right direction. Others will get you further along as you go. Good luck.
 
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Willie X

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The barrels and their springs are usually "side" sensitive. So, the first step would be to figure out if you have those two assemblies assembled correctly. If one spring is thicker, that one would likely go on the strike side. And, even if you think the barrels are the same, they should go back on the side from whence they came. Hopefully they are marked in some way.
Willie X
 

shutterbug

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If you put numbers beside your parts, it will be easier to tell you what goes where ;)
 

Simon Holt

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In case the OP is unfamiliar with photo-editing, I've done it for him:
ocbRGFeZQzCP38ar2pUENA.jpg
Simon
 

shutterbug

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Thanks, Simon! So #8,9,10,11 and 12 are definitely strike side parts. Do you know which barrel goes on which side? It might take some experimentation. I believe #3 goes next to the fan. I would start with the fan, more than likely fan side up on the highest hole on the front plate (#7). Then #3 should fit on the next one down. See which of the others I mentioned fit best on the next hole, and so on until you get to the barrel. It is possible you'll find that everything is upside down at that point, but that's easy to remedy :) Let us know how that goes, and post a pic.
#2 will be the top wheel on the time side, and you can work downward in the same way. Do you have parts that you are not showing in the pic? I don't see a verge or strike levers, and I'm not sure about #12. It looks like it might be either a strike lever or a balance fork.
 
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Fitzclan

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Probably be good to have a look the other side of the plate before starting to reassemble If you could post a pic.
 

JohnUK

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Thanks, Simon! So #8,9,10,11 and 12 are definitely strike side parts. Do you know which barrel goes on which side? It might take some experimentation. I believe #3 goes next to the fan. I would start with the fan, more than likely fan side up on the highest hole on the front plate (#7). Then #3 should fit on the next one down. See which of the others I mentioned fit best on the next hole, and so on until you get to the barrel. It is possible you'll find that everything is upside down at that point, but that's easy to remedy :) Let us know how that goes, and post a pic.
#2 will be the top wheel on the time side, and you can work downward in the same way. Do you have parts that you are not showing in the pic? I don't see a verge or strike levers, and I'm not sure about #12. It looks like it might be either a strike lever or a balance fork.
LcAizDcSRfS2+3kfYUP3oA.jpg +e4nPItKTmCCZx2N4G4TMw.jpg lwcnYDBbSGii3ckY1vafZw.jpg
 

Simon Holt

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I don't think anyone else has mentioned this, but you should (in fact, MUST) remove the pendulum hanger, pendulum crutch + pallet arbor and suspension spring, in order to avoid damage to the delicate spring (to do so, remove the pin at #1 in the picture below).

Also, remove the adjustable dogbone (#2) in order to make assembly easier (because you won't then need to include the pallet arbor during re-assembly). You should find that, after the movement is back together, you can insert the pallet arbour through that oval hole before putting the dogbone back on.
+e4nPItKTmCCZx2N4G4TMw.jpg
Simon
 

RJSoftware

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don't see hour cannon.

The slots in spring barrels bodies determine the sping's orientation. The spring will only hook to the barrel in one direction, it will slip the other way. It is possible to assemble spring backwards. Not only will backwards assembly slip but cause considerable confusion as spring arbors can go in backwards too.

The two springs are pretty much identical, so they can go in either barrel. But as mentioned, pay attention to punch/crack that grips the spring for winding orientation.

To insert by hand, start by placing tail end of spring inside and hook the tab in the hole of spring. Then loop by loop insert. Gloves helps. Using a towel helps too. Keep pressure on coil from popping out. Sometimes it helps to insert a coil or two and twist barrel to establish the grip of barrel punch/crack in spring hole. Get connected before inserting loops.

Now that you have springs oriented, as mentioned, you will need to reform inner coil to grip arbor. Make smaller so it grips tight. Inner coils are annealed by heat to soften. So when center coil break off, you can fix by annealing and making new hole. Rarely does a spring get tossed.

Same orientation concern with arbors. Pay attention to which direction arbor grips spring.

On german clock movement arbors can be inserted or removed even with barrel assembled and in movement. A very nice design but also enable reverse assembly.

Fortunately it looks like you have separate groups. Gears at top all look to be time side, gears at bottom are strike. But dont see the hour cannon. Is it still on the dial connected to hour hand? If so its only friction fit, should slide off.
 
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shutterbug

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If you remove that verge from the plate, it will help you to see which way the escape wheel (#2) goes in, Then as you build the time train downward, it will be right. As you build each train you should be able to see that the bigger wheel matches with the smaller pinion of the next wheel. They will match perfectly at each wheel when it's right.
 

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Rockford's early high grade movements by Greg Frauenhoff