Help with D.R.P. No 144688 US Patent No 751686

Discussion in '400-Day & Atmos' started by Dmuser, Feb 10, 2015.

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  1. Dmuser

    Dmuser Registered User

    Jan 24, 2015
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    Hello,
    My father-in-law has received this clock from his father. The torsion suspension spring is damaged. So i would like to repair it, hope one day i can get it to work. Could you help me with any information about this clock? I need to replace the torsion suspension spring (what is thickness and length). How to fix the suspension spring to the pendulum?

    IMG_5948.jpg
    IMG_5951.jpg
    IMG_5949.jpg
    IMG_5952.jpg
    IMG_5953.jpg
    IMG_5954.jpg

    thanks so much. Alex
     
  2. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    #2 etmb61, Feb 10, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2015
    Hi Alex,

    Welcome to the message board. I'm certain you can find the information you need here to get your clock going again.

    What I can tell you is it was made by JahresUhrenFabfik or JUF around 1905-06.

    There is a catalog that shows this model as number 228. The description reads: "Polished movement visible from all sides, 2 brass pillars, gilt lacquered metal base, glass shade, 4 inch. enameled dial." From that and the washers at the bottoms of the pillars I would have to say the base of your clock is a replacement. Everything else looks correct. You should examine the bottom of the pendulum to see if the clock's serial number is on it as well.

    The suspension spring is missing the bottom block. The block and the spring are available from suppliers such as Horolovar. The spring should be long enough to hang the pendulum just above the top of the base. I like to see just less than the thickness of the disc. As for the thickness of the spring, These older JUF clocks needed somewhere between .0045" and .0038" springs.

    Here is a sample of how the base from the catalog would have looked.

    Eric
     

    Attached Files:

  3. Ada

    Ada Registered User

    Aug 15, 2011
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    Hi Alex,
    I have a very similar Jahresuhrenfabrik clock to yours and of similar age. The suspension on my clock is 142mm long and 0.0045" thick. If I remember I had to thin it down a little.
    Adrian
    juf c1908 (54).jpg juf c1908 (59).jpg

     
  4. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    #4 etmb61, Feb 10, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2015
    I'm starting to suspect the base as shown in the catalog was not used on this model clock. The base on Adrian's clock is the type I've seen on actual clocks with the larger dials.

    By the way, beautiful restoration job Adrian!

    Eric
     
  5. jkfabulos

    jkfabulos Registered User
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    Looks like it could be a wood base. I agree the washers look out of place.
     
  6. Dmuser

    Dmuser Registered User

    Jan 24, 2015
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    thanks for your help.)
    I guess that my relative remade the base, because he could work with red wood very well. There is not any serials on the bottom of the pendulum. What kind of bottomblock can be used for this pendulum?
    IMG_5955.jpg IMG_5956.jpg IMG_5957.jpg IMG_5958.jpg IMG_5960.jpg

    thanks, Alex
     
  7. Dmuser

    Dmuser Registered User

    Jan 24, 2015
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    Do you recommend me to take apart the clock before the first start for cleaning? I have never repaired any watches before...
     
  8. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Yes, but first you have to let down the mainspring, or its power will destroy the clock if you just take it apart with the spring wound up. Getting cleaning fluid into the spring barrel is not a good thing, and will cause rusting eventually if the spring is not removed and cleaned.
     
  9. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    Sorry for going off-topic; But, I'm trying to figure out why the OP's pictures are not visible to me.
    I (apparently) see all the others in the thread and believe you can all see the images in post #1.
    Is there some setting that I might tweak?
     
  10. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Hi Alex
    Two things, please don't post pictures as links ( even though
    the MB will let you do that ). At the top of the edit window, there is a button
    that either looks like a window with a tree in it or a camera.
    That will take you to a page where the picture can be properly down
    loaded ( there is a size limit ). If you have troubles with the size
    limit, use any of the standard picture tools to reduce the size.
    Next, Horolovar will have bottom blocks. It should be so that it
    fits in the slot and has a pin to catch in the top. It should be relatively
    snug but I've found that the notch the pin rides in will keep it from
    wobbling( I don't think it makes a difference ). You can measure
    the width of the slow when talking to them.
    As was mentioned, you may need to thin a spring. If so, read some
    earlier post on the MB that describe how this is done.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  11. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    Figured out the issue.
    It's that I'm viewing the site from work and the filtering proxy in place, here, doesn't like the image hosting site Alex uses.
     
  12. Dmuser

    Dmuser Registered User

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    #13 Dmuser, Feb 11, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2017
    MartinM, sorry for the inconvenience, yesterday i used Opera and couldn't upload any images. now it's ok. I have uploaded it, please see them below. xyzzytom_251005 xyzzytom_251006 xyzzytom_251007 xyzzytom_251008 xyzzytom_251009 xyzzytom_251011 xyzzytom_251013 xyzzytom_251012
     
  13. Dmuser

    Dmuser Registered User

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    #14 Dmuser, Feb 13, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2017
    I have weighed the pendulum. It's too heavy i think, 505g. Inside of the pendulum on the bottom there is the thick washer. Please see the photo. I suppose that great-grandfather has upgrated it. Without of washer it weighs 413g. Could you help me, should i use it or not?
    xyzzytom_251301 xyzzytom_251300
     
  14. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    I can see the pictures in the first post, but none since then.

    Kurt
     
  15. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Put the suspension spring in first. If the rate is way too
    slow, you can try removing it. Not all numbers seen in the
    book are correct. It is what runs right in your clock that counts.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  16. Dmuser

    Dmuser Registered User

    Jan 24, 2015
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    Hi to all!
    I went back to recover my clocks. I cleaned and oiled it and got a new suspension spring (.0040 "(.102mm)) with the bottom block. Then i try to run according to instruction. Clocks runs just around 5 minutes and then stopping. Where can be a problem? height and thickness of suspension spring, weight of pendulum (now it's too heavy 505g, because there is a weighting agent inside of pendulum)?
    Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!!!
    thanks a lot
     
  17. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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  18. Dmuser

    Dmuser Registered User

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    Hi, Martin!
    The base was replaced, so now clocks is not rigorously vertical. I think, at the first i need to adjust suspension spring with the pendulum vertically. Also i don't know how to define the height between the fork and the pendulum.
     
  19. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    The suspension spring should be parallel to the back of the movement.
    The fork should be installed with the tines on the pendulum side of the spring and about as far from the top block as the total width of the fork on the spring.
    The tines should have enough clearance on the anchor pin to allow a piece of paper to fit between the two.
    If you have all of that done, it's probably just out of beat.
    Turn the saddle holding the upper block until the escapement advances at the same point in both directions.
     
  20. Dmuser

    Dmuser Registered User

    Jan 24, 2015
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    Hello, Everyone!
    I'm back to repair my clock again. Now I'd like to clean and oil all parts. Can you help me and give advice, which parts should be oiled and which of them not? Because there are so many difference opinions on this, someone suggest to oil not only pivot holes and a spring barrel, but gears also.
    thanks so much:))
     
  21. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    Don't oil the teeth of the wheels or pinions. Only the places where they rotate on another part. So, that's the pivots and the gear hubs for the cannon pinion and motion works.

    And the mainspring.
     
  22. whatgoesaround

    whatgoesaround Registered User

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    Different oils for the mainspring and pivot holes, Just in case.
     
  23. Dmuser

    Dmuser Registered User

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    thanks for your help. I have problem(
    When I've tried to clean one wheel, and broken pivot (see on the photo).
    It has 10/60 teeths, height-30mm, Dia of the wheel is 26mm/4.7mm.
    Also, I've marked it place, where it use to be.
    thanks alex

    IMG_8450.jpg IMG_8473.jpg IMG_8472.jpg IMG_8450.jpg
     
  24. Wayne A

    Wayne A Registered User

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    Time for a re-pivot job to repair that gear unless you can locate a replacement for it. Clock shops sell the pivot wire in many sizes and re-pivoting on larger gears like that is not to difficult.
     
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  25. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    Hi Alex,

    That can be fixed. Broken pivots keep clock makers in business. Hopefully you can find someone locally who can do the work for you. I think that is the best choice.

    Your other option is replacing the entire wheel. The good news there is any similar JUF or Schatz "49" clock made between the mid 1880s and the 1970s will have the same size and tooth counts for that wheel and pinion. The bad news is the pivots probably will not fit properly in the holes in the plates without some modification. Any other JUF clock with a serial number will have the best chance of fitting without changes to the plates.

    Eric
     
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  26. Dmuser

    Dmuser Registered User

    Jan 24, 2015
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    Hi, Eric!
    thanks for your detailed reply. I've contact with local clock's workshop. they can recover pivot. Hope it will be the same as before.
    Also, I found very similar wheel Herr 400-Day 3rd Wheel but not sure that the dia of pivot is the same. Once I recover it, I will show result here.
    My pivot has 0.9mm. I sent request them, but haven't received answer yet.
    thanks Alex
     
  27. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    Unless you broke the pivot by bending the arbor while it was in its place in the plate, you should look for additional damage in the lower part of the train, including the mainspring and barrel teeth.
     

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