Help with D.R.P. No 144688 US Patent No 751686

Discussion in '400-Day & Atmos' started by Dmuser, Feb 10, 2015.

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  1. Dmuser

    Dmuser Registered User

    Jan 24, 2015
    18
    1
    3
    St.Petersburg, RU
    Country Flag:
    Hello,
    My father-in-law has received this clock from his father. The torsion suspension spring is damaged. So i would like to repair it, hope one day i can get it to work. Could you help me with any information about this clock? I need to replace the torsion suspension spring (what is thickness and length). How to fix the suspension spring to the pendulum?

    IMG_5948.jpg
    IMG_5951.jpg
    IMG_5949.jpg
    IMG_5952.jpg
    IMG_5953.jpg
    IMG_5954.jpg

    thanks so much. Alex
     
  2. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 25, 2010
    2,478
    167
    63
    Retired Avionics Technician
    Mascoutah, IL
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #2 etmb61, Feb 10, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2015
    Hi Alex,

    Welcome to the message board. I'm certain you can find the information you need here to get your clock going again.

    What I can tell you is it was made by JahresUhrenFabfik or JUF around 1905-06.

    There is a catalog that shows this model as number 228. The description reads: "Polished movement visible from all sides, 2 brass pillars, gilt lacquered metal base, glass shade, 4 inch. enameled dial." From that and the washers at the bottoms of the pillars I would have to say the base of your clock is a replacement. Everything else looks correct. You should examine the bottom of the pendulum to see if the clock's serial number is on it as well.

    The suspension spring is missing the bottom block. The block and the spring are available from suppliers such as Horolovar. The spring should be long enough to hang the pendulum just above the top of the base. I like to see just less than the thickness of the disc. As for the thickness of the spring, These older JUF clocks needed somewhere between .0045" and .0038" springs.

    Here is a sample of how the base from the catalog would have looked.

    Eric
     

    Attached Files:

  3. Ada

    Ada Registered User

    Aug 15, 2011
    66
    0
    6
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi Alex,
    I have a very similar Jahresuhrenfabrik clock to yours and of similar age. The suspension on my clock is 142mm long and 0.0045" thick. If I remember I had to thin it down a little.
    Adrian
    juf c1908 (54).jpg juf c1908 (59).jpg

     
  4. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 25, 2010
    2,478
    167
    63
    Retired Avionics Technician
    Mascoutah, IL
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #4 etmb61, Feb 10, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2015
    I'm starting to suspect the base as shown in the catalog was not used on this model clock. The base on Adrian's clock is the type I've seen on actual clocks with the larger dials.

    By the way, beautiful restoration job Adrian!

    Eric
     
  5. jkfabulos

    jkfabulos Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Aug 21, 2001
    934
    55
    28
    Looks like it could be a wood base. I agree the washers look out of place.
     
  6. Dmuser

    Dmuser Registered User

    Jan 24, 2015
    18
    1
    3
    St.Petersburg, RU
    Country Flag:
    thanks for your help.)
    I guess that my relative remade the base, because he could work with red wood very well. There is not any serials on the bottom of the pendulum. What kind of bottomblock can be used for this pendulum?
    IMG_5955.jpg IMG_5956.jpg IMG_5957.jpg IMG_5958.jpg IMG_5960.jpg

    thanks, Alex
     
  7. Dmuser

    Dmuser Registered User

    Jan 24, 2015
    18
    1
    3
    St.Petersburg, RU
    Country Flag:
    Do you recommend me to take apart the clock before the first start for cleaning? I have never repaired any watches before...
     
  8. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
    NAWCC Member Deceased

    Nov 4, 2002
    40,850
    162
    63
    Male
    deceased
    Whitby, Ontario, Canada
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Yes, but first you have to let down the mainspring, or its power will destroy the clock if you just take it apart with the spring wound up. Getting cleaning fluid into the spring barrel is not a good thing, and will cause rusting eventually if the spring is not removed and cleaned.
     
  9. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

    Jun 24, 2011
    3,053
    102
    63
    Male
    Medical Insurance Systems Analyst
    El Dorado, CA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Sorry for going off-topic; But, I'm trying to figure out why the OP's pictures are not visible to me.
    I (apparently) see all the others in the thread and believe you can all see the images in post #1.
    Is there some setting that I might tweak?
     
  10. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

    Oct 11, 2010
    13,666
    70
    0
    Calif. USA
    Hi Alex
    Two things, please don't post pictures as links ( even though
    the MB will let you do that ). At the top of the edit window, there is a button
    that either looks like a window with a tree in it or a camera.
    That will take you to a page where the picture can be properly down
    loaded ( there is a size limit ). If you have troubles with the size
    limit, use any of the standard picture tools to reduce the size.
    Next, Horolovar will have bottom blocks. It should be so that it
    fits in the slot and has a pin to catch in the top. It should be relatively
    snug but I've found that the notch the pin rides in will keep it from
    wobbling( I don't think it makes a difference ). You can measure
    the width of the slow when talking to them.
    As was mentioned, you may need to thin a spring. If so, read some
    earlier post on the MB that describe how this is done.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  11. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

    Jun 24, 2011
    3,053
    102
    63
    Male
    Medical Insurance Systems Analyst
    El Dorado, CA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Figured out the issue.
    It's that I'm viewing the site from work and the filtering proxy in place, here, doesn't like the image hosting site Alex uses.
     
  12. Dmuser

    Dmuser Registered User

    Jan 24, 2015
    18
    1
    3
    St.Petersburg, RU
    Country Flag:
    #13 Dmuser, Feb 11, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2017
    MartinM, sorry for the inconvenience, yesterday i used Opera and couldn't upload any images. now it's ok. I have uploaded it, please see them below. xyzzytom_251005 xyzzytom_251006 xyzzytom_251007 xyzzytom_251008 xyzzytom_251009 xyzzytom_251011 xyzzytom_251013 xyzzytom_251012
     
  13. Dmuser

    Dmuser Registered User

    Jan 24, 2015
    18
    1
    3
    St.Petersburg, RU
    Country Flag:
    #14 Dmuser, Feb 13, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2017
    I have weighed the pendulum. It's too heavy i think, 505g. Inside of the pendulum on the bottom there is the thick washer. Please see the photo. I suppose that great-grandfather has upgrated it. Without of washer it weighs 413g. Could you help me, should i use it or not?
    xyzzytom_251301 xyzzytom_251300
     
  14. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 24, 2014
    3,651
    141
    63
    Aerospace Engineer (Ret.)
    San Antonio, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I can see the pictures in the first post, but none since then.

    Kurt
     
  15. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

    Oct 11, 2010
    13,666
    70
    0
    Calif. USA
    Put the suspension spring in first. If the rate is way too
    slow, you can try removing it. Not all numbers seen in the
    book are correct. It is what runs right in your clock that counts.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  16. Dmuser

    Dmuser Registered User

    Jan 24, 2015
    18
    1
    3
    St.Petersburg, RU
    Country Flag:
    Hi to all!
    I went back to recover my clocks. I cleaned and oiled it and got a new suspension spring (.0040 "(.102mm)) with the bottom block. Then i try to run according to instruction. Clocks runs just around 5 minutes and then stopping. Where can be a problem? height and thickness of suspension spring, weight of pendulum (now it's too heavy 505g, because there is a weighting agent inside of pendulum)?
    Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!!!
    thanks a lot
     
  17. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

    Jun 24, 2011
    3,053
    102
    63
    Male
    Medical Insurance Systems Analyst
    El Dorado, CA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
  18. Dmuser

    Dmuser Registered User

    Jan 24, 2015
    18
    1
    3
    St.Petersburg, RU
    Country Flag:
    Hi, Martin!
    The base was replaced, so now clocks is not rigorously vertical. I think, at the first i need to adjust suspension spring with the pendulum vertically. Also i don't know how to define the height between the fork and the pendulum.
     
  19. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

    Jun 24, 2011
    3,053
    102
    63
    Male
    Medical Insurance Systems Analyst
    El Dorado, CA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    The suspension spring should be parallel to the back of the movement.
    The fork should be installed with the tines on the pendulum side of the spring and about as far from the top block as the total width of the fork on the spring.
    The tines should have enough clearance on the anchor pin to allow a piece of paper to fit between the two.
    If you have all of that done, it's probably just out of beat.
    Turn the saddle holding the upper block until the escapement advances at the same point in both directions.
     
  20. Dmuser

    Dmuser Registered User

    Jan 24, 2015
    18
    1
    3
    St.Petersburg, RU
    Country Flag:
    Hello, Everyone!
    I'm back to repair my clock again. Now I'd like to clean and oil all parts. Can you help me and give advice, which parts should be oiled and which of them not? Because there are so many difference opinions on this, someone suggest to oil not only pivot holes and a spring barrel, but gears also.
    thanks so much:))
     
  21. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

    Jun 24, 2011
    3,053
    102
    63
    Male
    Medical Insurance Systems Analyst
    El Dorado, CA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Don't oil the teeth of the wheels or pinions. Only the places where they rotate on another part. So, that's the pivots and the gear hubs for the cannon pinion and motion works.

    And the mainspring.
     
  22. whatgoesaround

    whatgoesaround Registered User

    Jan 22, 2008
    444
    22
    18
    Male
    science teacher
    south carolina
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Different oils for the mainspring and pivot holes, Just in case.
     
  23. Dmuser

    Dmuser Registered User

    Jan 24, 2015
    18
    1
    3
    St.Petersburg, RU
    Country Flag:
    thanks for your help. I have problem(
    When I've tried to clean one wheel, and broken pivot (see on the photo).
    It has 10/60 teeths, height-30mm, Dia of the wheel is 26mm/4.7mm.
    Also, I've marked it place, where it use to be.
    thanks alex

    IMG_8450.jpg IMG_8473.jpg IMG_8472.jpg IMG_8450.jpg
     
  24. Wayne A

    Wayne A Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 24, 2019
    330
    46
    28
    Male
    Retired, process controll systems
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Time for a re-pivot job to repair that gear unless you can locate a replacement for it. Clock shops sell the pivot wire in many sizes and re-pivoting on larger gears like that is not to difficult.
     
    Dmuser likes this.
  25. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 25, 2010
    2,478
    167
    63
    Retired Avionics Technician
    Mascoutah, IL
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi Alex,

    That can be fixed. Broken pivots keep clock makers in business. Hopefully you can find someone locally who can do the work for you. I think that is the best choice.

    Your other option is replacing the entire wheel. The good news there is any similar JUF or Schatz "49" clock made between the mid 1880s and the 1970s will have the same size and tooth counts for that wheel and pinion. The bad news is the pivots probably will not fit properly in the holes in the plates without some modification. Any other JUF clock with a serial number will have the best chance of fitting without changes to the plates.

    Eric
     
    Dmuser likes this.
  26. Dmuser

    Dmuser Registered User

    Jan 24, 2015
    18
    1
    3
    St.Petersburg, RU
    Country Flag:
    Hi, Eric!
    thanks for your detailed reply. I've contact with local clock's workshop. they can recover pivot. Hope it will be the same as before.
    Also, I found very similar wheel Herr 400-Day 3rd Wheel but not sure that the dia of pivot is the same. Once I recover it, I will show result here.
    My pivot has 0.9mm. I sent request them, but haven't received answer yet.
    thanks Alex
     
  27. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

    Jun 24, 2011
    3,053
    102
    63
    Male
    Medical Insurance Systems Analyst
    El Dorado, CA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Unless you broke the pivot by bending the arbor while it was in its place in the plate, you should look for additional damage in the lower part of the train, including the mainspring and barrel teeth.
     
  28. John Hubby

    John Hubby Senior Administrator Emeritus
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Life Member

    Sep 7, 2000
    12,277
    218
    63
    The Woodlands, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Eric and all, regarding when this clock was made, my research shows any JUF clock with a 5-digit or longer serial number could not have been made before beginning of 1907, when JUF resumed the use of serial numbers beginning with number 50001. This serial number was derived from a study I made of total production of all JUF manufactured clocks starting with those made for A. Harder and continuing through 1906 during which time they made a total of approximately 50,000 clocks. It also fits well with the number of clocks JUF made from 1907 to the beginning of WW1. However, I have no idea why they restarted, maybe because all the other makers at that time were using serial numbers?

    This particular movement back plate is of unusual interest, in that the basic design with the DRP/USP stamping was made from about March 1904 to near the end of 1907, with the following differences:
    • Plate 1051 and Plate 1146A: DRP 144688 USP 751686, No Serial Number, No Suspension Guard. Made from March 1904 to about September 1904. In fact the only difference between Plate 1051 and Plate 1146A is the letter "G" at lower left corner on Plate 1146A. This same plate design has also been documented with the letters "L" and "W".
    • Plate 1051*: DRP 144688 USP 751686, No Serial Number, Has Suspension Guard. Made from about October 1904 to end 1906. Note the Huber suspension guard patent was granted June 25, 1904 and then licensed to JUF in 1904 and others in 1905 and later. The asterisk designates the presence of the threaded suspension guard mounting holes, not illustrated in the Repair Guide. In addition, this plate version has been documented with the letters "S" and "W" stamped at the lower left corner.
    • Plate 1051*B: DRP 144688 USP 751686, No Serial Number, Has Suspension Guard, stamped "Anniversary Trade Marke Registered" at center left. Made from October 1904 to end 1906. Not in the Repair Guide, made for Bowler & Burdick. Otherwise identical to Plate 1051*.
    • Plate 1047: DRP 144688 USP 751686, Has Serial Number between 50001 and 63000, Has Suspension Guard. Made from beginning to end of 1907 only, no examples found after December 1907. Identical layout to Plate 1051* with addition of serial number. The lowest number in my data at this time is 50325 and the highest 56152. Has been documented with letters F, G, H, L, S, and W at lower left corner.
    • Plate 1051AA: Identical to Plate 1047 except suspension guard mounting holes not shown and word "Germany" stamped at center right. Would have been made about mid-1908 based on the serial number 68015. My view is this plate design is somehow in error, as ZERO examples have been found to date in more than 25 years of searching.
    For your info and enjoyment!!
     
    Dmuser likes this.
  29. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 25, 2010
    2,478
    167
    63
    Retired Avionics Technician
    Mascoutah, IL
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi John,

    Welcome back.

    The serial number on this plate is out of range for JUF clocks having the DRP stamp as well. I'm checking to see if I have recorded any JUF clock with that curved "Germany" stamp. No luck yet.

    Eric
     
    John Hubby likes this.
  30. Dmuser

    Dmuser Registered User

    Jan 24, 2015
    18
    1
    3
    St.Petersburg, RU
    Country Flag:
    #31 Dmuser, Feb 25, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2020
    Several photos of my JUF clock are below:
    IMG_8648.JPG IMG_8652.JPG IMG_8649.JPG
     
  31. Dmuser

    Dmuser Registered User

    Jan 24, 2015
    18
    1
    3
    St.Petersburg, RU
    Country Flag:
    After recovering 3rd wheel, all part of the clock was cleaned and oiled, including mainspring.
    Because I know nothing about this JUF (please see first post in this thread), I tried to find any information for suspension spring. I hope, that Mr. Chris Nimon from Horolovar definded it correctly, so I got suspension spring (.0040" - .102mm) and bottom block.
    Now, it ran about 2-3 hours, then stopped. I tried to change the distance between top block and fork a little, find the best and longest is 2-3 hour. For me, everything looks to be straight and lining up well, and the main spring is about 1/3 wound.
    Here is several video



    About 1 hour after started running

    Any suggestions on how to keep it running would be greatly appreciated!
     
  32. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 25, 2010
    2,478
    167
    63
    Retired Avionics Technician
    Mascoutah, IL
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi Alex,

    From what I can see you need to re-position and adjust your fork. These pictures should help.
    fork.jpg
    How you have it now the anchor pin can slip out of the end of the fork loosing power that should go to the pendulum. Moving the fork forward as shown will prevent this problem.

    fork2.jpg
    You will probably need to bend the tines to get the proper clearance.

    Make sure the clock is put back in beat when you get done.

    Eric
     
    Dmuser likes this.
  33. Dmuser

    Dmuser Registered User

    Jan 24, 2015
    18
    1
    3
    St.Petersburg, RU
    Country Flag:
    #34 Dmuser, Feb 26, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2020
    Hi, Eric! thanks for your advice. I will try to do it today later and let you know the result.
    I'm newbie with repairing, maybe my questions are not professional so sorry.
    Usually the clock stops in second half of hour, when minute hand between 30 and 60 minutes. I checked the impulse by hand, kicking the anchor pin a little, using a toothpick - when minute hand in the first half hour, the impulse is good in both directions, in the second half hour, the impulse is just one direction and less.
    Also, when I took apart the clock for cleaning and oiling, I discovered, that the hand tension washer, between plate and hour wheel, doesn't work correctly. It doesn't touch to anything, maybe there should be one more washer. It seems strange for me, what the purpose? Could this affect to the problem? Please see the photos below.

    IMG_1607.JPG IMG_8454.jpg
     
  34. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 24, 2014
    3,651
    141
    63
    Aerospace Engineer (Ret.)
    San Antonio, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I think you should reverse the tension washer. The way it is, it doesn't provide any tension to the cannon pinion and the minute hand can flop or fall down from say 15 to 30 or from 45 to 30. The tension washer shouldn't be too big as to interfere with the leaves of the pinion.

    Kurt
     
    Dmuser likes this.
  35. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

    Jun 24, 2011
    3,053
    102
    63
    Male
    Medical Insurance Systems Analyst
    El Dorado, CA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    If the tension spring washer is big enough to interfere with the cannon's gear mesh, a thin washer, with a diameter large enough to contact the ends of the spring washer in its flattened state helps ensure there is no problem with the motion works gears.
     
    Dmuser likes this.
  36. Dmuser

    Dmuser Registered User

    Jan 24, 2015
    18
    1
    3
    St.Petersburg, RU
    Country Flag:
    Hello,
    I've changed several points recently:
    1) I reversed the tension washer. Now it is ok.
    2) I've adjusted the fork according advice above. And the mainspring is almost wound in full. Because, if just 2-3 turns, the clock runs around 1-2 hours, but removing the hand minute, it runs long. Where could be power loose? or the mainspring is weak now. As I got information, the clock was stopped more than 45-50 years ago and the mainspring was wound in full. or need to adjust fork?
    3) now the clock is in beat, but 4 minutes slow per hour.
    Also, below is the photo of oil I used (the same for all parts - pivots, escape anchor and mainspring), maybe this's problem?
    thanks for your help
    Alex


    IMG_8690.JPG IMG_8691.JPG IMG_8692.JPG IMG_8699.JPG
     
  37. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 24, 2014
    3,651
    141
    63
    Aerospace Engineer (Ret.)
    San Antonio, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Alex -

    I don't read what appears to be Chinese so I can't say about the oil. For the short term, probably most any oil might work. But for the long term, you don't want an oil that will degrade. Synthetic oils hold up for a much longer period. I use a 50wt synthetic car oil.

    This sort of situation is my nemesis...clock will run with only the hour hand but as soon as I add the minute hand, the clock can't raise the hand past 0:45. Last night, I fashioned a "hand" out of a paperclip and was able to just slip the paperclip in place. The clock couldn't raise it past 0:40. I weighed my paperclip hand...it weighs 0.3 grams!!!

    From looking at your video, it appears your escape wheel doesn't really snap off the pallet and drop aggressively to the next tooth. That suggests lack of general power. It might just be the video, but it's been clear to me the different between a strong clock and a weak clock. My trouble has been to figure out where the weakness is coming from.

    Kurt
     
  38. whatgoesaround

    whatgoesaround Registered User

    Jan 22, 2008
    444
    22
    18
    Male
    science teacher
    south carolina
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    The mainspring will use a different oil than the pivots. Perhaps your tines on the fork are not far enough apart? They look like there is barely room for the anchor pin to move or it could just be my eyes.
     

Share This Page