Help With Ansonia Strike Train for Newbie

Hello and welcome to the Message Board.

You've done a lot of what I consider to be controversial things with this movement any one of which might start a contentious discussion so I'll just not mention them and focus on the Subject of your thread.

As you noted, each deep slot in a Count Wheel is there to enable the Strike Train to go into lock and stop striking. Yours has two deep slots next to one another to stop on the hour, and then to allow a single half-hour strike 30 minutes later. The increasing number of shallow teeth in the Count Wheel keep the Strike Train out of Lock and running for 2 through 12 strikes to agree with the hour shown by the Time Train.

In order to discuss what needs to be done we need to be on the same page, so I'm going to ask you to study this Thread by bangster, one of our moderators. In it, he names and describes the parts and Wheels (Gears) involved, and discusses their timing to one another.

Count Wheel Basics

That alone may be enough to help you sort out your timing/adjustment problems, but if not, you can discuss the issues your trying to resolve using a terminology we are all familiar with.

Good luck and once again, welcome.

Bruce

 

Savage, referring to your diagram in post #1, note that pin "f" contacts lever "c" to stop the striking. Very likely the wheel (gear) with pin"f" is a bit too advanced so that when lever "c" drops the pin has already passed. With the count lever blade in one of the deep slots, the wheel with pin "f" should be timed so the pin will be s short distance ahead of the lever "c". Too much distance and the cam will lift the lever and it won't stop at all. Too little and wheel will have to turn another half- turn to catch the second pin. (I believe this Ansonia has two stop pins on that wheel)

Remember to use your spring clips and let down power of the main springs before separating the plates to retire this wheel.

RC

It does not matter which deep slot in the count wheel you use.

 

Another possible issue is the stop lever. If it is set too deep, it will stop the strike train every time it encounters the stop pin. That could be adjusted without taking the movement apart again.
Some count wheel strikers don't have a stop pin though, so some pics from the strike side of yours would help.

 

Savage B, you're welcome. Bangster's diagram is helpful in that his labels describe what the parts actually do.

I can't read the text of your reference. I'm sure the author goes over the sequence in good detail referring to the labeled diagram in the book In the case of that diagram, you need the timing of the wheels to line up with A, B. and C to get the Strike Train to "fall" back into lock again at the appropriate time. The spring you mentioned is sometimes referred to as a Gravity Assist Spring and its purpose is usually to make sure that the A,B.C lever assembly falls quickly enough to catch the fast turning Warning Pin. It will be more confusing than necessary if we bounce between your diagram and bangsters. We all have full access to bangsters.

Bangster refers to these ABC levers (one combined part) as the Regulating Lever Assembly.

There are 3 states in the Strike Train: Lock, Warning and Striking.

The Activating Lever Assembly will lift the Regulating Lever Assembly so that the Strike Train comes out of "Lock" and into "Warning". Warning might be thought of as the Cocking of the Strike Train so that it is ready to start running at the appropriate time. The only thing stopping the Strike Train from running when it is in Warning is the Warning Pin. Every other lever is clear to run. When the Time Train advances just past the Top of the Hour or past the Half Hour, the Activating Lever Assembly drops away and the Warning Lever, which is part of this assembly, drops out of the pathway of the Warning Pin.

When the Strike Train goes from Lock to Warning, the Maintenance Wheel advances just enough so that it will maintain the Regulating Lever Assembly out of it's Locked State. This helps prevent the Strike Train from simply falling right back into Lock again. The Maintenance Lever alternates this function with the Count Wheel Lever in such a way that one or the other keeps the Lock Lever out of the path of the Warning/Lock Pin, The Maintenance Lever/Maintenance Cam also lifts the Regulating Lever Assembly slightly so that the Count Lever is clear of the Count Wheel as it advances one slot. When a Deep Slot of the Count Wheel lines up with the Slot in the Maintenance Wheel, the entire Regulating Lever Assembly drops far enough for the Lock Lever to catch the Warning/Lock Pin which Locks the Strike Train and prevents it from Running. That Pin is located on the Warning Wheel (or Gear) which rotates relatively fast. Because it rotates faster than the other Wheels its timing can be a little tricky and one or two teeth on the Warning Wheel or certainly on the Maintenance Wheel can make the difference between a reliable lock, an intermittent lock, or a consistent failure to lock.

As mentioned previously, the shallow slots of the Count Wheel account for 2 or more Strikes. Your movement has been designed to strike the number hours at the top of the hour and once on the half-hour. Your Count Wheel has four deep slots all together. They allow the Strike Train to drop into Lock at 12:00, 12:30, 1:00 and 1:30, As the Count Wheel rotates from 1:30 to 2:00, you'll see one shallow slot followed by two deep slots. This keeps the Strike Train running for two strikes before it drops into Lock, followed by another deep slot for one Strike at 2:30. You'll then count two shallow slots followed by two deep slots for 3:00 and 3:30 and so on until you reach the four deep slots for 12:00, 12:30, 1:00, 1:30 again.

When you're setting the timing of the gears, any deep slot will do. The "Maintenance Lever" needs to be in the middle of the Maintenance Cam Slot and the Warning/Lock Pin needs to be very close to, but not right up against the Lock Lever. You're making static timing adjustments (with NO power from the Mainspring) but remember that the Warning Wheel is turning at a high rate compared to the Maintenance Wheel. This is what RC is explaining in his post.

Some older movements don't use a Lock Lever. These movements "catch" the Maintenance Cam which has a different shaped deep slot which allows that to happen. I believe that is what Shutterbug may be describing to you.

As an aside, I think it's best to stay with original parts instead of swapping in parts from different movements. Manufacturers often "tweaked" even the "same" movement model over time so that parts you would think are interchangeable really aren't. Also, pivots may not have the same size due to wear or servicing. Sometimes it necessary and practical to do so but swapping parts can lead to a real headache for you, or perhaps for the next person who works on the movement.

Sometimes it's helpful to post a link to a YouTube Video of your movement's behavior so that we can see exactly what's going on. In this case, the problem is basic enough that it probably won't be necessary.

I hope that's a little clearer than mud.

It takes a little study and observation but just like a Strike Train dropping into Lock, it will all fall into place given a little time.

Bruce

 

Here's the deal on the bunch of deep teeth together. The first deep tooth ends the 12 o'clock strike. The next one ends the 12:30 strike. The next one ends the 1 o'clock strike. The next one ends the 1:30 strike. After that there's one shallow tooth and a deep one, for the 2 o'clock strike. Then another deep one for 2:30. Then two shallow ones and a deep one for 3 o'clock. Then another deep one for 3:30. And so on.

 

My thought as well when reading that it was only striking once. Stop lever is too deep.

 

Looking at the diagram lever, I ,could be the problem as the pin when released by the stop leaver is now in set with lever ,I, after the hand passes the hour or half hour this drops to let the strike run, however if it is a little to high lever ,H, which runs on the cam will raise it again and it will catch the pin stoping the strike.
If this is so here is the fix;
The strike stops when it should not, look at lever ,I, and see if it is touching the pin, if so bend it slightly down and the strike should start till it reaches the long slot on the count wheel, move the minute hand to get the set, then if it runs you moved it to much, if it sets then move the hand past the hour and it should do the count and stop in the long slot.

 

It is easy to determine if the stop lever is too deep. Stop the fan just as the count lever blade bottoms in one of the shallow spaces between two teeth on the count wheel. At that point the stop pin should just clear the stop lever so the striking can continue until the count lever blade drops into one of the deep slots where the stop lever will stop the stop pin.

RC

 

Why I suggested it could be the set lever is that Savageblunder said, the strike only runs one time before stoping, if it was on a shallow slot on the count wheel this would not be possable as lever "B" would not enter the cam slot, therefore the stop lever "C" would be to high to stop the pin therefore it would run till it found the long slot, which it is not doing.

 

.... but if the stop lever is bent it can cause it to stop at the shallow drop as well. Need to check as I said in post 10 to see where the stop lever is in relation to the stop pin when the drop lever is over (not in) the cam slot and the count blade is in a shallow place between teeth. Setup so it just clears the stop pin and it should be right when it drops into a deep slot. Get this right first, then check the timing of the stop wheel. Must have both right for it to work.

RC

 

I agree with what you said, both need to be right, it is only guess work as we can't see the levers in the movement.

 

It would seem that our OP has gone off to study his spare Ansonia Movement with the working Strike Train.
Looks like he has good reference material from Merritts.
He's mechanically inclined with a working example to study so...

We'll have to wait and see if any more help or advice is requested.

 

He didn't even say goodbye....

 

There he is!

SavageB,

That's how many of us initially approach the issue of Strike Timing I think.
In my experience it's best to re-assemble the Strike Train from the bottom up keeping in mind the requirements for the Train to be in Lock mode. On a quick note, when a Strike or Chime Train is in lock, the Hammer(s) should be completely at rest. I don't think this is a consideration in your movement's case since the hammer lifting pins are also on the Maintenance Cam, but in some movements you need to be concerned about it. I believe that the "Warning Run" is also pre-set in this movement. Some movements require you to set that as well.

So, as you reassemble and set the Count Wheel Strike Train up in "Lock" make sure:
1. The Strike Hammer remains at rest until the Train is fully running
2. The Count Lever is in a Deep Slot
3. The Maintenance Cam is in it's Slot
4. The Lock Pin is very near to the Lock Lever (when present)
5. Although not usually as important with a Count Wheel Mechanism, it's good practice to have the Minute hand positioned so that it is just past the point at which the Strike (or Chime) Train is put into motion. It's important with Rack and Snail setups but even with the Count Wheel Mechanism, it will force you to determine whether or not you need to make adjustments there as well. Ideally the Strike Train will activate at the top of the hour or at the Half-Hour, and not 2+ minutes before or after those points. A little "slop" is common with antiques and acceptable to many folks.

Once the Movement is fully reassembled, you'll probably still need to make some minor tweaking adjustments to the Warning/Lock Pin, but that's much easier since the gear in question is near the top of the Train. If you have to split the plates more to go "deeper" into the Train, things become more difficult.

In any case, the Strike Train won't "kill" you.

You do want to handle those mainsprings with a healthy respect though. You have experience with antique Record Players so you probably have worked with powerful springs before, yes?

Good luck, and have fun.

Bruce

 

Yes, setup begins at the bottom of the train as Bruce has described but there is one more consideration. In clocks like the one being discussed here where the count wheel is turned by a gear on the second arbor the timing between the second arbor and the maintenance cam determines where the count wheel "deep slot" will be when the lever drops. If the count lever blade was dropping into the center of the deep slot before the movement was disassembled but binds on a tooth or the edge of a tooth after reassembly the timing between the second arbor and maintenance cam wheel is incorrect. The first thought is often to bend the count lever blade so it goes into the slot anyway when the proper procedure is to change the timing between the second wheel and the maintenance cam. One should not just assume that the angle of the count lever blade is correct when a clock presents for service because bending the blade is a common practice, and acceptable to correct slight misalignment of the blade in the slot only.

The slots in the count wheel are generally radial from the center of the wheel. The arc traced by the count lever blade if continued should pass through the winding arbor, or more simply, the blade should point straight into the count wheel slot (pointing at the winding arbor). If the blade rests slanted in the slot then very likely the blade has been bent in an attempt to compensate for a timing error. In that case the blade should be adjusted to point toward the winding arbor and the timing between the second wheel and maintenance cam adjusted, followed by a small adjustment of the blade to center it in the slot. Yes, it can be a PITA sometimes to get just right.

RC

 

That has been a topic of conversation a few times since I've been on the Board and no doubt several times before that. I don't recall seeing factory timing marks on typical late 19th, early 20th Century American Clocks. Some German movements do have timing marks within their Chime Trains. The Strike Trains are usually pretty straightforward once you have your bearings.

In my experience, it's best to start with a movement which is running well but that just needs a good cleaning. That's how my mentor got me off the ground.

As RC points out, it can be frustrating trying to learn on a movement which has seen a lot of "adjustments". Some are obvious, some you won't discover until you've taken the movement apart. As you probably well know, Antiques have been around the block a couple of times and many have seen amateur attempts at repair. If you continue working with antique clocks you'll soon discover that reversing an improper repair will be far more difficult, and time consuming than just doing the necessary repair using widely accepted techniques. I'm sure you've seen the same thing in other mechanical areas...although a car motor probably won't run too well or very long if it's been seriously bodged up. Overpowered American Time and Strike Movements can sometimes power through a lot of abuse and neglect for a long time but often much worse for wear.

There are many very experienced folks who are happy to answer your questions. Also, there is a treasure trove of information in the Message Board Archives. The Board's Search Engine is pretty good. Many of us direct Google to Search the Archives for us. Here's the syntax if you're interested: Searching the Message Board using Google

If you have the time, search on proper Cleaning and Oiling methods and you'll see what I was alluding to in my first response to your Thread when I said:

Some folks are pretty passionate and discussions can get a little heated.

 

Marks would not be that helpful. Things have a way of moving during assembly, and have to be tweaked afterward anyway. Especially that stop pin wheel. It almost always needs an adjustment after assembly.

 

That's a good point SB. I suppose someone might look at the pins and slots within the Train as the "Timing Marks" when you understand what their purposes are. Everything you need to deal with is visible.

 

On this type of clock I find it sometimes helps during assembly to use masking take or a rubber band, or whatever, to keep the count blade in one of the deep slots with the drop lever in the cam slot and the stop/warning pin approximately where it should be. I guess I average about 50/50 on the first attempt.

One thing I have noticed, if the pivot holes are sloppy its a lot harder to keep things lined up, but fitting the upper strike train bushings "close" makes it a lot harder to slip a stop wheel out of mesh without bending a pivot without taking everything apart. French clocks and many wooden works clocks have timing marks, I find them to be helpful.

RC

 

I still have not worked on any wooden works and only a few French. I don't recall seeing timing marks on the French movements I've worked with, but then, I wasn't expecting to find any either. So are those marks on the Gear Rims? Trying to partially split French plates is tempting fate. Fortunately I haven't broken off any French Pivots yet, but give me a little time. I'm sure I'll manage to do so at some point in the future.

 

A tip that I've used for many years (and posted here several times) is to simply leave out the fly and the wheel that drives it. This gives you more room and allows easyer adjustment of the count wheel to maintance wheel aglinement.

Once you have the lower train placed just right, drop in the warning wheel, in the position where it stops against the lever/wire.

Check the operation a few times and drop in the fly, that's it.

Note, the train needs to be under slight tension when testing. Normal 'slack' in the train can cause errors, so make sure the mainspring is tensioned with a few clicks on the spring. This slight tension will be way short of enough to actually run the train. Testing is done by applying finger pressure to the 2nd wheel.

WIllie X

 

Having to adjust the timing many many times during my learning curve, I've found that if you spread the plates at the exact correct place, you can easily remove the warning wheel along with the governor and re-position it. That works for me.
Depends on what type of plate spreader you use and where you place it.
I have a pair of spring loaded Brake spring pliers that I use. And I can apply shims or spacers on either side thin or thick in order to navigate around the wheel I'm trying to remove.

 

All this can easily be done by hand.

If the wheels are 'placed' correctly there is usually no need to move anything a second time. It does take practice and knowing the drill on the exactly what the 'correct position' is.

WIllie X

 

We all hope to get things right on the first try but this is a very helpful tool when subsequent adjustments are sometimes needed. Plate Spreader

 

A note for people just new to clock repair;
If you need to adjust the pin wheel or anything remember to let down both springs, don't think you can just open the plates a small amount and it should be okay, it will not.

 

French and wooden movements trim off a tiny bit of the corner of a pinion leaf for a timing mark. There is usually a very small divot on the rim of brass French gears. French movements usually have removable cocks to allow timing without separating plates. "Trying to partially split French plates is tempting fate" - yes it is indeed! Also you will not spring those thick French plates apart even with a plate spreader.

I guess everyone already knows my dislike for plate spreaders. The danger is that one can over do it and end up bending the plates instead of just separating them. If that's your thing go for it but be gentle. I'm not going to run right out and buy one.

RC

 

Thanks RC. I'll look for these marks the next time I'm working with a Frenchie. I know that I'll eventually come across a wood works clock.

I think that a plate spreader, like any tool, should be used with care. It's a force multiplier and I've used it to separate rusty plates like the donor for Dave's ST 89. I would have had a very difficult time getting that movement apart without the Spreader. The thing I like most about this tool is that it allows the user to gradually and precisely open the plates, usually (depending on the relative pivot lengths) freeing one wheel at a time. It then allows one to "hold" that separation. I don't use a Plate Spreader to close the plates because that tempts fate too. If there is resistance to closing the plates again, something is not lined up and you definitely don't want to force it. As far as bending the plates, the fasteners are all loosened. The Fastener nearest the wheel(s) you need to work with is completely removed. The other fasteners are selectively loosened to reduce any flexing of the plates.

As I've become more proficient at setting up timing, I find myself reaching for this tool much less often than before, but I'm still glad to have it on hand.

Regards,

Bruce

 

I came across your advice to do this some time ago when I was having a hard time setting the timing. I do it this way exclusively now, I still don't get them right first time every time but my success rate has improved quite a bit. I've also noticed that different makers will be consistent in the distance between the stop pin and the lever, for example right against it or a quarter turn away.
Don

 

There really is usually just one way that's even close.

With the 'L' shaped wire dead center in the maintence cam's notch, put the warning wheel in, pin against the stop. You don't have to do any calulating, just pin against the stop lever. It's about 60 degrees to the next tooth, so the correct mesh should be obvious and doable on the first try, nearly every time.

If there are problems, it may be due to the 'L' shaped wire being bent, or the timing up to the maintence cam could be off. RC already covered this earlier in this thread.

I always check the strike action closely before taking the clock apart. There's no need in taking photos and making drawings if the thing is not assembled right at the start!

WIllie X

 

This is a little off your main topic but for quick references...

Some folks use Spray Adhesive. Double-sided tape. Even Wall Paper Paste. One member suggests a white paint primer first to block rust.
Look over these links for some helpful suggestions:
Gluing paper dials
Paper dial replacement tutorial
Dial Adhesive
Paper dials - preventing glue stains down the line

There are more.

If you like to use Google, direct it to search the Message Board Archives.
Here's how: Searching the Message Board using Google

I found this related thread using the method mentioned above: Ingraham 8 Day Clock Only Strikes Once

Also, if you haven't done so already and when you have a little time to explore, check out the "Sticky Threads" at the very top of the Forum Home Page. There's lots of good information to be found there.

Regards,

Bruce

 

Funny - I don't recall seeing this before. I'm going to give that a try next time I get one in.

 

Congrats. Looks pretty good. I would suggest maybe increasing the distance between the hammer and gong about 1/16" or so when it's at rest. It sounds to me like the hammer is "lingering" on the Gong as it tries to vibrate. Sometimes video/audio is deceptive. What do you think?

 

You're welcome. When the Gong really starts vibrating after a number of strikes the hammer needs a little more clearance so that it doesn't interfere. Some Gongs vibrate so much that it becomes difficult to keep the hammer clear and still get a good strike. In my opinion you've turned in a very nice first effort.

 

Gong sounds good to me. It's a little out of beat though. Willie X

 

Strikes 8, 9 and 10 sound like they are garbled against the strike hammer to me.
Putting my ear against the speaker, I agree about the beat. It's out of beat. Good catch
See this link if you have any questions SavageB :Beat Setting 101

This is nice video to visualize what's going on:
Demonstrated on a Tall Case Clock but is applicable to any Pendulum Clock

 

Hi SavageB,

Glad that you were able to tune up the Strike. It did sound pretty good but as I mentioned, when a Gong is repeatedly struck, it really starts to vibrate and may need a little more clearance than it does otherwise.

To answer your question, yes, you can have a good hourly rate and decent time-keeping even if the movement is not in beat. If the clock is too far out of beat, the movement may stall or will not run as long per winding as it should. Movements are very seldom in "perfect beat" and they do tend to drift a little with imperfections in the Escapement, but you should try to get the beats as even as you can. A clock that is in beat will run better and keep better time than one which is not.

Did you get a chance to view TickTockTony's video on adjusting the beat? In it, he helps you visualize the fact that the pendulum should hang motionless at a point that is equal distance from each tick (or tock) when you manually and slowly move the pendulum from left to right and back again. Even though he is demonstrating the procedure on a Tall Case Clock, I think it is a very good tutorial *because* it is on such a large scale.

As you know, the Escapement's power is transmitted to the pendulum through the Crutch and so it is the Crutch that you must bend slightly (on this type of clock) one way or the other. There are several mnemonics used to remember which way to bend the Crutch. One is called Arjay's Maxim. The link I provided to bangster's "Beat Setting 101" tutorial goes over the concepts of Vertical, the Beat Center and Beat Adjustments very well I think.

I always remember to bend, or adjust the Crutch away from the Beat Center's displacement from Vertical. In reference to Vertical (as determined by gravity) if I have to move the pendulum further to the left to get a tick than to the right, I think of the Beat Center as displaced to the left. I adjust the Crutch slightly to the right which moves the Beat Center to the right. The marks that TickTockTony places on his Masking Tape "Beat Scale" puts this concept into motion so that it's more clear I think. If this is confusing please look over the video. It may clear things up for you.

With many pendulum clocks you really need a quiet environment to hear the beat adequately. Some folks use a beat amplifier or stethoscope. If you still have good hearing and a quiet environment, those instruments shouldn't be necessary, just "nice to haves".

You may be able to make adjustments to the clutch with your wire bending tool if you have access to the Crutch while the Pendulum Rod is in place, but the Crutch Wire or Rod is usually made of brass rod and is easily bent without tools in these type of clocks. A little adjustment goes a very long way usually so make several small incremental adjustments rather than one large one. You should also try to make your bends/adjustments more gradual so as not to fatigue the brass. Your fingers are ideal for this purpose.

Does that make sense or have I just muddied the waters?

Bruce

 

That's where most of us start Savageb. It's quick and easily reversible. You can get the basic ideas from there. I saw a little cartoon a while back which poked a little fun at the approach. As I recall it was something about learning to set the beat with clock repair books. There were a couple of books under one side of a clock which had that side jacked up really high!

If you're not quite sure where you want to display the clock and just want to try out a couple of locations, use of shims the ideal way to set the beat temporarily.

Once you know where you'll display the clock, you'll probably want to set the beat by adjusting the Crutch but if all you need is a thin shim or two in order to get it into beat, there's really no need to fiddle with the Escapement/Crutch any more in my opinion.

In your video, your movement sounds like it's pretty far out of beat with the Beat Center well to the left of vertical. Personally, I wouldn't try to shim that much discrepancy.

Ideally, the clock will be on a level surface and the pendulum should hang plumb. It's not enough for the case to be level left to right. If it is not level front to back the pendulum rod might rub against the front or back of the Crutch Loop. That will waste energy and could cause running problems. The pendulum rod should hang in the middle of the Crutch Loop with perhaps a hair's width of lateral clearance. If the pendulum rod is too tight or too loose within the sides of the Crutch Loop you'll lose power to friction or waste it with excessive free play.

You clock has a flat top, so you may want to set the beat with the top of the clock level. Usually, but not always, a "level" case means a level surface.
Some folks use coins, business cards, old playing cards, popsicle sticks or similar items for shims. Sticky felt or rubber pads are a very good idea for heavy clocks such as yours. I also like to place them on porcelain clocks. I usually stick with the same type of pad at all four corners, but they're totally reversible so if mixing and matching also gets your clock in beat, why not?

Setting the beat by adjusting the Crutch is usually one of the last steps I take when reinstalling the movement into the case.

Bruce

 

You can ask what was original to the movement/clock. Folks with experience and knowledge can advise you.

Often, you can find reproduction pendulum bobs sold by clock supply businesses like Timesavers or Merritts to name two. Here's a list of many more: Clock Suppliers -- General/Supply/Tools/Repair/Service/Etc. •
You can also find genuine antique bobs sold on certain auction websites like eBay.

You know how things should be when the Escapement is working most efficiently. Any deviation from that is less than ideal. Multiple deviations can be cumulative and may result in issues. If not immediately, perhaps down the road a bit.

That would depend on your goals and whether or not the clock belongs to you. The owner always has the final say as to who is allowed to do what to their clock.

Here's a pretty good thread on the subject: Goals for restoration or repair

Your questions are good. I just keep referring you back to the Archives because chances are that you'll find excellent answers from numerous perspectives there.

Have fun

Bruce

 

Anything around 3 ounces will be good.

Too heavy and it won't run, too light and it won't keep a good rate. Often, with a 'too light' pendulum on a spring driven clock, the clock will gain time when first wound and lose time at the end of the wind. This is a fairly common problem in old spring driven clocks, even when the pendulum is correct ...

Willie X

 

Some people do better at setting the beat by sight. Just watch the escape wheel and see if it's advancing evenly on both the tick and the tock.