Help w/ Debaufre Escapement references

[aucaj]

Hello,

I'm looking for books/references/catalogs for the various implementations of the Debaufre escapement since its invention. Ultimately, I wish to perform a comparison of the the various designs for publication. I need some help with identifying resources for the literature review.

As far as photos, I have found examples for Pierre-Francois Le Roy, Ormskirk chaff-cutters, Du Bois, and few others. Does anyone know of any existing examples by Debaufre himself?

I would appreciate any information you could provide.

v/r,
Chris

 

[Dr. Jon]

Check

Les Echappements en Horlogerie Mechanique

The translation of this title is "The Escapement in Mechanical Horology". The author is by Olivier Laesser. The book is new, edited and published by Simonin. It came out in 2021. It is in French. Here is a link...

mb.nawcc.org

It's in French but it has several pages on the brothers the escapement and its derivatives.

 

[aucaj]

Check

Les Echappements en Horlogerie Mechanique

The translation of this title is "The Escapement in Mechanical Horology". The author is by Olivier Laesser. The book is new, edited and published by Simonin. It came out in 2021. It is in French. Here is a link...

mb.nawcc.org

It's in French but it has several pages on the brothers the escapement and its derivatives.

Thank you, Dr. Don. I am considering ordering a copy.

My particular interest is with the version produced by Pierre-Francois Le Roy. Please could you tell me if the book makes a specific mention of his design?

https://www.ottawaclocksandwatches.ca/images/Education/Julien%20LeRoy%20Article%20by%20R.%20St-Louis_Nov_2020.pdf

 

[zedric]

There is a small et ion in Charles Allix's book on carriage clocks, detailing the Garnier chaff cutter escapement, as well as a copy of a letter Garnier wrote explaining the differences between his chaffcutter escapement and the Debaufre one

 

[Rich Newman]

Chris, one of the first American makers was the Massachusetts firm Wheelock & Morse in Sutton, Massachusetts. They were in business at the end of the 18th century and upon the dissolution of the partnership in 1802-03, Moses Morse continued the manufacture in New Hampshire. They made watches with Debaufre, Virgule and Verge escapements. An article about them is in the Bulletin, September - October 2019. A few of their watches survive & I have one that has their Debaufre escapement which came out of the Time Museum. Can provide more photo's of it if helpful.

 

[Bernhard J.]

I can only contribute with a "standard" version of the Omskirk variant.

 

[John Matthews]

Bernard,

Do you have a photographs of the case hallmarks and case maker's marks. It appears to be capped - do you have the cap and are there any markers initials?

John

 

[Bernhard J.]

Hi John, Hall marks from 1830. And indeed capped (no inside photo at hand). Sponsors: Timothy Ellison & Henry Fishwick.




And here is the watchpaper.

 

[John Matthews]

An example of mine - 1819 James HOUGHTON 'Ormskirk Verge' pair case. Houghton examples are most frequently cased by the Ellison family of watch makers from Liverpool.



John

 

[aucaj]

There is a small et ion in Charles Allix's book on carriage clocks, detailing the Garnier chaff cutter escapement, as well as a copy of a letter Garnier wrote explaining the differences between his chaffcutter escapement and the Debaufre one

Hi Zedric,

Would it be permissible to request that you post a photo of Garnier letter? I am trying to understand Debaufre's specific design. Then I can understand how Pierre-Francois Le Roy modified it with his design.

Thank you,
Chris

 

[aucaj]

Thank you everyone for the photos.

John & Bernhard, I read about James Houghton. He almost exclusively made these double wheel escapements. I am glad to see the photos of the escapements.

Rich, Wow! I had also read about Wheelock & Morse. I have not heard of many of these surviving. I believe Wheelock was producing these before Houghton?

Thank you,
Chris

 

[John Matthews]

Chris

To my knowledge the earliest 'English Ormskirk' type watches, i.e. Debaufre, were those made as skeletonised watches by Joseph Finney of Liverpool ~1765 (see BM #1993.0207.1). James Ryland was one of the earlier makers in Ormskirk #175 dated ~1780 (Clutton & Daniels).

There were a variety of different frictional rest movements being experimented with on the Continent as well as in Lancashire and London in the late C18th and early C19th. Exactly why Ormskirk became a centre is not clear, but the port of Liverpool, in my opinion, is likely to have played a role.

John

 

[Dr. Jon]

Yes, the Laesser Book has a section on the LeRoy version with a very clear diagram.

My French is not very good but with that and some computer translations I have found the text to be very illuminating.


This is the go-to book for any escapement invented or used up to about 2020.

 

[aucaj]

Chris

To my knowledge the earliest 'English Ormskirk' type watches, i.e. Debaufre, were those made as skeletonised watches by Joseph Finney of Liverpool ~1765 (see BM #1993.0207.1). James Ryland was one of the earlier makers in Ormskirk #175 dated ~1780 (Clutton & Daniels).

There were a variety of different frictional rest movements being experimented with on the Continent as well as in Lancashire and London in the late C18th and early C19th. Exactly why Ormskirk became a centre is not clear, but the port of Liverpool, in my opinion, is likely to have played a role.

John

Thank you, John. I didn't realize they were adopted in the 1760s!

 

[zedric]

Hi Zedric,

Would it be permissible to request that you post a photo of Garnier letter? I am trying to understand Debaufre's specific design. Then I can understand how Pierre-Francois Le Roy modified it with his design.

Thank you,
Chris

Hi Chris

here you go. I’ve also included the best photo I can take of a Garnier escapement, and a copy of one on a clock by Berton, although that really only shows the platform not the escape wheel


Garnier escapement

Escapement on Berton, Paris clock, also a chaffcutter

 

[aucaj]

Hi Chris

here you go. I’ve also included the best photo I can take of a Garnier escapement, and a copy of one on a clock by Berton, although that really only shows the platform not the escape wheel

View attachment 742792 View attachment 742793 View attachment 742794
Garnier escapement View attachment 742795

Escapement on Berton, Paris clock, also a chaffcutter View attachment 742796

Thank you, Zedric. It is very kind of you to post the photos. I really appreciate the clock escapement photos!

 

[aucaj]

Debaufre Escapement Teeth:
I haven't been able to find any published documentation from Debaufre detailing his escapement design.
In the Laesser book suggested by Dr. Don, the Debaufre escapement is illustrated with sharp teeth as shown in the examples posted by Rich. Bernhard, and John.
For clarification, it is save to say that Debaufre's design involved these sharp teeth?

There is an unphotgraphed diagram in the Science Museum produced in 1928. I don't believe it is on display. Does anyone have a photo of it?

Diagram of Debaufre's escapement | Science Museum Group Collection

Diagram of Debaufre's escapement, made by Science Museum in workshop, London, England, 1928

collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk

Garnier Escapement Teeth:
From Zedric's posts, it would seem that one distinct difference between Debaufre and Garnier designs is the shape of the teeth.
The Garnier escapement has 'squared' teeth as shown in the attached photo?

 

[aucaj]

Assuming that all statements/assumptions from my previous post are true, I would be interested in opinions on this movement.
Unfortunately, these are the only photos I have at the moment.

The movement dates from about 1720 to 1730.

The back plate appears to be English-style with what would have been an English balance cock. Perhaps, it was produced by an English maker for Baillon?

Garnier patented his 'chaff-cutter' escapement in 1830. This Baillon movement has the general shape of Garnier escapement teeth but pre-dates him by decades if not almost a century? I don't know what to make of this?

 

[John Matthews]

Chris - how have you decided upon the date?

Albert Baillon, Paris late C17th, was he still working in 1720-1730? Never seen pillars of that design before 1735, mainly found 1740-1780s. Escapement looks Garnier style - possibly replacement escapement after 1830 invention?

Too little information to assume this escapement predates the 1830 invention in my opinion.

John

 

[aucaj]

Chris - how have you decided upon the date?

Albert Baillon, Paris late C17th, was he still working in 1720-1730? Never seen pillars of that design before 1735, mainly found 1740-1780s. Escapement looks Garnier style - possibly replacement escapement after 1830 invention?

Too little information to assume this escapement predates the 1830 invention in my opinion.

John

Hi John,

I agree; these pillars do span a good range, but the height of the movements did gradually decrease. The pillars are high and have the larger flare to the square section. I have seen particular pillars seem to span 1730 to the 1760s with examples by some early makers [Pothenot a Paris (working 1710), John-Baptist Baillon (1750s), Benjamin Gray (died 1764)].

Julien Le Roy invented the adjustable potence which was widely adopted in 1735 throughout France. This one has the older plug design. This forms some basis for the earlier date. There was only one Albert Baillon that I know of. He started his career in the late 1600s with much of his surviving work spanning 1715 to 1730.

I agree, more information is needed. The original seller was kind enough to provide these photos. I contacted the new owner in order to get better photos, but I have not received a response yet.

If this were a replacement escapement, wouldn't you expect the construction to match that of Garnier more closely?

v/r,
Chris

 

[aucaj]

Julien Le Roy invented the adjustable potence which was widely adopted in 1735 throughout France. This one has the older plug design.

Now that I think about it, this escapement design might not need potence adjustment such as a verge fusee might.

 

[John Matthews]

Chris - I believe the adjustment of would need to be perpendicular to that which is present on a verge.

If correct this would probably confirm this was originally a verge and has been converted.

John

 

[aucaj]

If correct this would probably confirm this was originally a verge and has been converted.

John,
I can assure this was never a verge! The escapement opening is too narrow. You see these narrow openings on Sully escapements. I have a few Sully watches and will post photos later. If I were to assume that the escapement were a replacement, then I would assert that it was originally a Sully or Debaufre escapement.

After further review, its seems Pierre-Francois Leroy double-wheel escapements do not need or have a potence adjustment either.

Chris

 

[John Matthews]

I have a few Sully watches and will post photos later. If I were to assume that the escapement were a replacement, then I would assert that it was originally a Sully or Debaufre escapement.

Chris can you please clarify what you mean by Sully escapements?

I am little familiar with continental examples, but my understanding is that the true Sully escapement has the teeth essentially in the plane of the escape wheel as shown in fig. 20 of Chamberlain or Gros fig 103

I have only captured one example of this arrangement in a French silver quarter repeater that was sold in London in 2011. I now try to avoid using Sully escapement to describe the single escapement wheel Ormskirk examples such as these

I prefer to describe these being offset verges, as with a verge the teeth are set perpendicular to the plane of the wheel. Now these normally have the ability to adjust the engagement of the teeth with the pallets, as shown in my example.

In contrast the examples with twin escape wheels such as

do not have the adjustment facility.

So based principally on English examples, I infer that while the Baillon escapement may have been a verge or an offset verge (so called 'Sully type' Ormskirk), I think the presence of the potence with adjustment plug speaks against an original twin escape wheel. I appreciate that my lack of experience with continental examples weakens my inference and I am happy to be proved mistaken.

John

 

[aucaj]

Hi John,

You're Sully diagram is consistent with my understanding. I have three examples of this escapement type. It is difficult for me to get photos showing the escapement. Here is a video that another collector posted that shows the escapement in action.



I am going to try to call the owner and see if he'll either join this discussion or provide better photos.
From the current photos, there is evidence that the watch was not verge. The position and size of the escapement cutout or 'window' is an indicator. You'll notice that in all the examples in this thread have a slim window. I have posted a photo showing the slim slot in the back plate of one of my Sully escapements.

The balance shaft is broken on the Baillon movement. But if you look at the curvature of the Tompion regulator and the placement of the window, you can see that the balance shaft would be positioned on the inner short edge of the window. The window is too narrow for a verge, and if you imagine the balance shaft positioned in the center of either of the longer sides of the window, it is offset and overlapping the regular. In this case the pivot on the balance cock would be grossly off centered.

P.S: The sully escapements do have a potence adjustment. It is attached to the underside of the back plate and not near the edge, so I didn't see it immediately.

John: Your single escapement wheel Ormskirk is very interesting. I was not aware of their existence! What more can you tell me about it?

v/r,
Chris

 

[aucaj]

Sully's original escapement was improved upon by Julien Le Roy after Sully's early death. I have included some photograph references.

Robert St-Louis is self-publishing a book on Henry Sully's life and horological work. He is a fascinating man who was well-connected within the watchmaking communities across England and Europe. He got the idea for his escapement after his friend Sir Issac Newton showed him his watch by Debaufre with a 'new' escapement type. What I'd give to get a look at Newton's watch today! (If it survived, of course).

I highly recommend Robert's book on Sully:

Henry Sully – Time Tales – A la recherche du temps

timetales.ca

 

[gmorse]

Hi Chris,

The comment in the text of picture 2 is untrue if the evidence of the pallets in the third picture is to be believed; the lift is on the inclined impulse planes of the pallets.

Regards,

Graham

 

[aucaj]

Thank you Dr. Don for the Laesser book recommendation.
Here is a photo of a set of diagrams relevant to the discussion.

To summarize Debaufre-inspired escapements, there are later Ormskirk Debaufre's, Garnier Chaff-cutters, Leroy escapements (only 5 known to exist), and later Sully escapements.

Back to the original subject:
I have never seen any document by Debaufre or an example of his escapement by his own hands, or even an early example from his lifetime.
Please does anyone know of a surviving early Debaufre escapement?

 

[aucaj]

Hi Chris,

The comment in the text of picture 2 is untrue if the evidence of the pallets in the third picture is to be believed; the lift is on the inclined impulse planes of the pallets.

Regards,

Graham

Hi Graham,
Wow! That is an excellent observation! Unfortunately, I have lost the specific reference for these photos, but I have taken note of it.

As a side note: I have seen the clubbed teeth on one example sold:

Very Rare Sully Escapement Quarter Repeater | Pieces of Time Ltd

A very rare late 18th Century French quarter repeater with Sully's escapement in a silver consular case. Deep full plate fire gilt fusee movement with five slender turned pillars. Small pierced and engraved cock with unusual forked foot, garnet endstone in a polished steel setting. Polished...

www.antique-watch.com

 

[gmorse]

Hi Chris,

The watch at Johhny's shop could have a sort of divided lift, with most on the teeth and some on the pallets, although I suspect the latter's contribution is quite small.

Regards,

Graham

 

[John Matthews]

Chris - that's the French repeater.

Previous post - page with multiple photographs are all taken from Charles Gros book. Confused by Fig 73 in earlier post - see

John

 

[aucaj]

Chris - that's the French repeater.

Previous post - page with multiple photographs are all taken from Charles Gros book. Confused by Fig 73 in earlier post - see

View attachment 745466 View attachment 745467

John

Thanks, John. Please disregard the Julien post. He improved upon Sully's marine clock escapement and NOT the Sully watch escapement currently discussed.

 

[aucaj]

Does anyone have an example of Pierre-Francois Le Roy's escapement? I know of only 5 examples through publications, auctions, and museums. I am curious if any private collectors have unknown examples?