Help to identify lathe accessories

Burgos

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Sep 21, 2009
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Hi all,

This is my lathe but there are some accessories or parts that I don't know how to use it. in fact I don't know what they are used for.

The lathe:
Lathe.jpg


This one I have not idea about what is used for. It is stored here in the box:

Part1.jpg


And this is the part:

Part3.jpg

This one I have no idea what is used for, where it should be attached...

Part4.jpg

There are more I would like to know how to use it but last one could be these chucks; I dont know how to attach it to lathe. Maybe they are not original.

Part2.jpg

Thanks in advance for your help.
 

karlmansson

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There are some very helpful books on this. “The watchmakers lathe and how to use it” is one. “The watchmakers lathe - its use and abuse” is another one I think.

Steffen Pahlow also sells some old Lorch catalogues on his website. Quite cheap I think.

Not sure if you are asking about No 1 but the item next to the number is a tap handle.

No 4 is a pusher used to eject taper tooling from a hollow tailstock runner.

No idea about No5.

No3 is a drive dog for between centers turning. You clamp it on the work and use a drive disc with protruding finger to drive it.

Regards
Karl
 
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Burgos

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There are some very helpful books on this. “The watchmakers lathe and how to use it” is one. “The watchmakers lathe - its use and abuse” is another one I think.

Steffen Pahlow also sells some old Lorch catalogues on his website. Quite cheap I think.

Not sure if you are asking about No 1 but the item next to the number is a tap handle.

No 4 is a pusher used to eject taper tooling from a hollow tailstock runner.

No idea about No5.

No3 is a drive dog for between centers turning. You clamp it on the work and use a drive disc with protruding finger to drive it.

Regards
Karl
Thanks for your answer Karl; you are always ready to help. I will review the books. The one you mention "The watchmakers lathe and how to use it” was written by Donald de Carle?

Photo 1 is just general view of my lathe. There was no specific question about it.

Regarding photo 3 is not about the drive dog. It is about the chucks. I can't figure out where to attach it in the lathe.

Part2.jpg
 

KurtinSA

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I'm no tool man, but those #3 collets look like something that I have for my Dremel. My guess is that you might put one of those into one of the other regular collets and then when you pull it down it pulls these #3 items down as well. They look pretty crude. Not sure why they would be of any advantage over using an appropriate collet to hold something.

Kurt
 
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Dr. Jon

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These look like are collets that go in a screw head finishing tool. Here is a cut from the Lorch 1911 catalog

1619890376867.png 1619890376867.png
The arrow, which I added, points to the screw head which is held in one of the collets you have.

The set up on the lower left is for polishing the side of the screw head.

This was not a good seller. Most people, my self include have gteh screw polisher set on a frame that goes into a bench vice and we turn the wheel by hand.

There was another runner for drilling that takes a tapered insert that may also have taken these collets. This is labeled 15 in the cut below.

1619890710294.png
These are from Steffan Pahlows site before he combined all of these into a very nice App you get get at the Ap store.
 
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wefalck

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No. 3 are cheapo four-slotted collets of the kind you can get in brass for 2€ the set from China these days, though they look a bit older. I would suspect that a previous owner used them as insert-collets, probably in a No. 40 collet. Normally, such collets are made carefully from brass and fit into a No. 50 collets and are used to protect delicate parts (such as screws) during turning, when a steel collet might risk to damage them.

As Karl said, de Carlè's book is kind of the bible for these lathes, as it explains virtually all the attachments that are commonly available for them. It's a dangerous book though, because it makes you searching for them ;)

P.S. added after I saw Dr. Jon's concurrent post: the collets most likely do not belong to a screw-head polishing tool. These tools use internally threaded brass collets to protect the screw-thread, as is evident from the drawbar-knob. The collets in question have double cone and are tightened with a collet-nut as per the ubiquitous hand-held drills.
 
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Dr. Jon

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I checked my screw head tool which has a lot of these collets. The collets in my set look identical those in post #3. The pictures do not show the bottoms of these but assuming are not threaded. the collets in my tool set set are not threaded. They go in a special vise with another steel collet that closes the collet insert.
 
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wefalck

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If you have double-cone collets, that means they are tightened with a collet-nut. The better manufacturers always provided collets with three slots because the center the work better than collets with two through-slots, albeit at hight cost of manufacture.

I would be curious to see your tool Dr. Jon.
 
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Dr. Jon

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Assuming you mean my watchmaking tool, here are some photos:

Ensemble.png

There are a lot of these collets. All but two are three way cut. The two stell ones on teh left center are four way cut.

Here is one of the brass collets.. It is sprung but this makes little difference for flat polishing a screw top. Collet.png

There are no threads in the back.

Here is a collet in the vise. Holder open.png

These inserts get compressed by the four jaws.

Here is vise fully assembled Holder end.png
This vise fits into a frame that holds it perpendicular to a finishing disk which also does into the frame. The frame has a tab to mount it to a bench vise.

Lorch made a similar set but used the headstock to turn abrasive and polishing disks, as I showed in my earlier post
 

wefalck

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OK, that's a system I had not seen before. A bit strange with a double-cone collet to tighten the actual brass insert collet.

Lorch, Schmidt & Co., Wolf, Jahn & Co. and Boley made polishing tools that are mounted with the aid of the T-rest holder onto lathe beds. There was a special spindel insert with a proprietary male cone that fitted the polishing discs in steel, bell-metal and box-wood. However, if you had a cross-slide mounted grinding spindle, you didn't really need the polishing tool.
 

Dr. Jon

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There were two views on this.

I use and prefer the tool I have. It depends on how much you wand to do with yout lathe and whether or how much you want polishing and abrasives near you lathe. The tool I have is quick; turning the pressing the wheels by hand is pretty easy and fast and I can leave my cutting set ups in place on the lathe. I suspect most working watchmakers felt the same since these separate sets are a lot more common than the lathe attachment versions.
 
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wefalck

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These are good points. It is always good to have several 'work-stations' and yes, abrasives on a lathe are not ideal to put it mildly ;)
 

Burgos

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I checked my screw head tool which has a lot of these collets. The collets in my set look identical those in post #3. The pictures do not show the bottoms of these but assuming are not threaded. the collets in my tool set set are not threaded. They go in a special vise with another steel collet that closes the collet insert.

No, they are not threaded. I think they are not part of the lathe.

collet.jpg
 

karlmansson

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No, they are not threaded. I think they are not part of the lathe.

View attachment 652956
Sure does look like an old Dremel collet to me. The Proxxon equivalents are steel and actually pretty well made if you are looking to replace yours. I've actually considered making a tailstock runner that will take these collets for my Lorch Geneva lathe. The tailstock runners are very thin and make it hard to use a drawbar design. Front clamping collets seem like the better alternative, small ER or these.
 
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AlexandreVienna

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Hi all,

This is my lathe but there are some accessories or parts that I don't know how to use it. in fact I don't know what they are used for.

The lathe:
View attachment 651997


Thanks in advance for your help.
Hi Burgos,
the box looks nice, but the lathe not so much. Have you used it already, how is it?

This old tools need a lot of care, cleaning and oiling. then they work nice. Mine wobbled a lot when I got it - after cleaning and oiling the slack was gone and the lathe is now very precise. The pin wich is in the spindle holding the collet in place was gone. Had to be replaced. Please do not use it if this pin is missing (many buys from internet have those problems).
 

karlmansson

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Hi Burgos,
the box looks nice, but the lathe not so much. Have you used it already, how is it?

This old tools need a lot of care, cleaning and oiling. then they work nice. Mine wobbled a lot when I got it - after cleaning and oiling the slack was gone and the lathe is now very precise. The pin wich is in the spindle holding the collet in place was gone. Had to be replaced. Please do not use it if this pin is missing (many buys from internet have those problems).
Why not use the lathe without the locating pin? I know some members of this forum who recommend grinding it down if it is present even. The idea being that if both the work and the collet can be rotated independently in relation to the spindle you can eliminate runout better. The loads on these small collets are also very small and so the pin shouldn't really be needed on top of the friction imparted by the drawbar. But then of course, if a collet SHOULD spin in the nose, that is very bad for the precision of the lathe.

Regards
Karl
 

Burgos

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Hi Burgos,
the box looks nice, but the lathe not so much. Have you used it already, how is it?

This old tools need a lot of care, cleaning and oiling. then they work nice. Mine wobbled a lot when I got it - after cleaning and oiling the slack was gone and the lathe is now very precise. The pin wich is in the spindle holding the collet in place was gone. Had to be replaced. Please do not use it if this pin is missing (many buys from internet have those problems).
I have this lathe for ten years more or less. I use it from time to time and I had a problem with it some weeks ago as you can see here, there you can see the lathe on detail; I was near to ruin it but finally al went fine. And yes the spindle has the original pin on it. Precise? Well, I drilled a 0.2 mm hole some days ago and all seems to be fine; the hole is concentric with rod so seems it is enough precise for my requirements; I also did a 0.14 mm pin with same result.
 
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AlexandreVienna

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I have this lathe for ten years more or less. I use it from time to time and I had a problem with it some weeks ago as you can see here, there you can see the lathe on detail; I was near to ruin it but finally al went fine. And yes the spindle has the original pin on it. Precise? Well, I drilled a 0.2 mm hole some days ago and all seems to be fine; the hole is concentric with rod so seems it is enough precise for my requirements; I also did a 0.14 mm pin with same result.
ok,
haven't read the other thread regarding your problem. But please please never use a hammer. If you oil it regularly the spindel comes out fine.

Mine is an old one, used with an handwheel, so no oiler caps. I dismantle it after a 10-15 hours running and clean it, then reoil it. And it always has dirt in it...
The pin should be 1.5 mm not 0.14. The slot in the collet is 1.6 mm. Has to fit nice otherwise it is not good for the pin to get hit every time it start to move and the draw bar is not screwed on tight.

In some book they mention that the pin has to be drilled out from above, I would not do it. It is conic and the smaller side is in the spindel. Just push it upwards, than there is less danger to get marks on the conus of the spindel

Alex
 

AlexandreVienna

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Why not use the lathe without the locating pin? I know some members of this forum who recommend grinding it down if it is present even. The idea being that if both the work and the collet can be rotated independently in relation to the spindle you can eliminate runout better.

Regards
Karl
Sorry Karl,
that is rubbish. The pin and the notch are there for a reason. Of course the pin must fit the notch, should not be too small or damaged.
You want the spindel and the workpiece attached to be one unit, no wobbeling no inaccuracies. Only then you can do precise jobs. And of course you need a graver with an perfect diamond shape,
otherwise you are just tinkering and the outcome is mediocre,

-

sorry for my blunt words
Alex
 

karlmansson

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Sorry Karl,
that is rubbish. The pin and the notch are there for a reason. Of course the pin must fit the notch, should not be too small or damaged.
You want the spindel and the workpiece attached to be one unit, no wobbeling no inaccuracies. Only then you can do precise jobs. And of course you need a graver with an perfect diamond shape,
otherwise you are just tinkering and the outcome is mediocre,

-

sorry for my blunt words
Alex
Why is it rubbish? You are right, those are pretty blunt words, especially without any backup of why it would be so. The pin isn't there to make the collet a better fit, if yours does that I suspect you are using the wrong collets. The only purpose of the pin is to locate it the same way in rotation each time you use it and to provide torque to the collet for heavy cuts. Since this is a watchmakers lathe, you won't really be taking any heavy cuts and so the friction between collet and spindle will keep it in place.

I still have the pin in my 6mm lathe, and I made a new one for my W20 102mm center height lathe, where the transfer of torque is a real problem due to the size of the work it can hold. But I know that other members of this forum, Jerry Keiffer comes to mind, has recommended using small lathes without that pin for the reasons I mentioned above. I think I also remember this being suggested in George Daniels "Watchmaking", although I may be mistaken as I don't have the book at hand.

Regards
Karl
 

dave-b

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ok,
haven't read the other thread regarding your problem. But please please never use a hammer. If you oil it regularly the spindel comes out fine.

Mine is an old one, used with an handwheel, so no oiler caps. I dismantle it after a 10-15 hours running and clean it, then reoil it. And it always has dirt in it...
The pin should be 1.5 mm not 0.14. The slot in the collet is 1.6 mm. Has to fit nice otherwise it is not good for the pin to get hit every time it start to move and the draw bar is not screwed on tight.

In some book they mention that the pin has to be drilled out from above, I would not do it. It is conic and the smaller side is in the spindel. Just push it upwards, than there is less danger to get marks on the conus of the spindel

Alex
Many (all?) original pins are actually a T shape with the part inside the spindle in the shape of a rectangle to engage the collet groove, in other words longer than the diameter of the pin. This makes it impossible to push it upwards.
 
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wefalck

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Indeed, it seems that the locating pins originally were elongated, but as they tend to wear/get damaged easily on many old lathes by now they have been replaced by simple pins.

It would be good to talk to the original designers in order to hear, why the pins were introduced in the first place. The obvious answer would be to transmit torque, but practice shows that in most cases sufficient torque can be transmitted by friction alone. Another answer would be to prevent a collet from spinning and marring the spindle in case the friction resistance is exceeded. This could put the concentricity in jeopardy. I have the feeling that the second answer is the more probable one.

Jerry Kiefer recommend in another thread here to not replace or even push out the pins so that one can find the best position for a given collet to attain minimum run out. I can follow that logic, but that would require to test the whole collet set and then somehow mark the collet to be able to set it against a reference mark on the spindle.

I have been using my Wolf, Jahn & Co. milling machine now that takes 8 mm collets for 15+ years now without any issues. OK, it is probably not as precise as a lathe (anymore), but I don't see any appreciable wear on the collet seat and don't seem to have had any issues with slipping collets - before this happens the round belt slips.

In fact, the round belt drive is a safeguard against overloading the relatively delicate machines that the watchmakers lathes are. Unless you tighten the belt drive so much that you would probably distort the alignment anyway, the belt will slip before the collet or chuck slips.
 

karlmansson

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Indeed, it seems that the locating pins originally were elongated, but as they tend to wear/get damaged easily on many old lathes by now they have been replaced by simple pins.

It would be good to talk to the original designers in order to hear, why the pins were introduced in the first place. The obvious answer would be to transmit torque, but practice shows that in most cases sufficient torque can be transmitted by friction alone. Another answer would be to prevent a collet from spinning and marring the spindle in case the friction resistance is exceeded. This could put the concentricity in jeopardy. I have the feeling that the second answer is the more probable one.

Jerry Kiefer recommend in another thread here to not replace or even push out the pins so that one can find the best position for a given collet to attain minimum run out. I can follow that logic, but that would require to test the whole collet set and then somehow mark the collet to be able to set it against a reference mark on the spindle.

I have been using my Wolf, Jahn & Co. milling machine now that takes 8 mm collets for 15+ years now without any issues. OK, it is probably not as precise as a lathe (anymore), but I don't see any appreciable wear on the collet seat and don't seem to have had any issues with slipping collets - before this happens the round belt slips.

In fact, the round belt drive is a safeguard against overloading the relatively delicate machines that the watchmakers lathes are. Unless you tighten the belt drive so much that you would probably distort the alignment anyway, the belt will slip before the collet or chuck slips.
I don’t mean to speak for Jerry but if I remember his reasoning correctly it was the ability to position the collets whichever way you like to get the least amount of runout that was the entire point of not having a pin. You would use a dial indicator to find the lowest runout before starting machining.


no I can not follow that logic of Jerry...
Something here reminds me of a debate club from school.
Welcome to the discussion Alexandre! I just find it to be more constructive to back up your point than just calling people out for not sharing your opinion.

Regards
Karl
 

AlexandreVienna

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actually I wanted to delete my post.
Burgos asked for help to identify parts of his lathe,
we should put our efforts into that and not have a pin discussion
 

wefalck

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Karl, yes I know what Jerry meant, but I wondered, how often one would need to go to these pains really ...
 

karlmansson

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actually I wanted to delete my post.
Burgos asked for help to identify parts of his lathe,
we should put our efforts into that and not have a pin discussion
True. I belive he got his questions answered though? As I mentioned I used my Lorch 6mm with the pin still in place and it works fine. But from my experience with drilling out a broken pin, making a a new one, riveting it home and saying a quiet prayer that it didn't work itself loose for the first month I used it, EVERY time I used it, I can say that fitting a new pin can be quite stressful. If it comes loose, that's a deep scoring in the bearing... And for the scale of a lathe this small, I thought it might be more trouble than it's worth to fit a new one.
Karl, yes I know what Jerry meant, but I wondered, how often one would need to go to these pains really ...
Yes, I agree. It would be similar to dialing something in in a four jaw. I guess that for turning a balance staff the Daniels way, with flipping the staff around in the collet and not turning between centers (he describes both in Watchmaking though) it could be very useful. But it certainly comes at the cost of convenience.

Speaking of Daniels, turns out I was mistaken about him recommending removing the pin as well. I had a look in both the Turning and Lathe chapters now and couldn't find it.

Regards
Karl
 

measuretwice

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Of course the pin must fit the notch, should not be too small or damaged. You want the spindel and the workpiece attached to be one unit, no wobbeling no inaccuracies.
Are you saying you think its the pin that stops things from wobbling? If your collet can move with the drawbar is tightened, there is something wrong.

The pin serves one function, to make sure the collect doesn't spin when you tighten/loosen the drawbar. It is not there for torque or any other imagined reason. Lots of collets don't use pins.
 
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