Help to date English longcase clocks

[Oled]

Hey, it's nice to see MB back runing again, thanks to admins!

I wanted to share with you photos of longcase clocks that are proposed to me by one reseller. At first they are looking quite authentic, but your opinion and approximate dating is highly appriciated.

They are signed "Giffn Rayment Bury" on the dial.

Many thanks in advance!
Oleg.

 

[Steven Thornberry]

Oled: Any chance of pictures of the movement to go along with those of the case?

 

[Oled]

Hi Steven,

I asked, will be a bit later. Probably they are nessesary for the right dating, yes?

Oleg

 

[Ralph]

Maybe Laprade will stop in and offer some insight. He's well versed on case styles and periods.

Ralph

 

[Ansomnia]

Hi Steven,

I asked, will be a bit later. Probably they are nessesary for the right dating, yes?

Oleg

Very often, because these clocks are so old and because wooden cases are relatively fragile, an old longcase clock may have lost its original case for one reason or another. But the movements, especially of older clocks, were excellent, very durable and valuable. So they got married to either new cases or cases that had poorer quality movements by lesser-known makers or simply orphaned cases.

You need to examine the movement very carefully.

According to Loomes, the dial refers to Giffin Rayment of Bury St. Edmunds (Suffolk) b. 1722, d. 1769. He was the son of Richard Rayment. Based on what I see I think the clock may be from 1750-60.


Michael

 

[Mike Phelan]

The dial does seem to support what Michael says. Very unusual seconds dial!

 

[jmclaugh]

The arcaded minute band often called a Dutch minute band was most popular in the North West of England and the effect is mirrored in the seconds dial, the silent/strike feature is not a very common one on English loncase clocks. Michael's dating sounds right, look forward to pics of the movement.

 

[laprade]

I'm of the opinion that the clock is a fake. Oled's pictures are of superb quality and size: allowing close inspection.

Lets start with the face: the chapter ring is not engraved, it is etched, and not very well at that. Hand engraving of that supposed age does not leave ragged or wavy lines, but bad etching does. The artwork of the minutes is appallingly bad! (There was a dial on the board some time ago that had the same indents in the outer circle, but I didn't think of keeping copies of the pictures.)

The chapter ring itself, has some odd things about it. There appear to be chamfers in places caused by a buffer, and the plating is not done in the right way: looks electroplated.

The only piece of hand engraving is on the name plate, which has been cut from something larger. No engraver would put a screw through his work, or have such bad balance to the spacing. If you imagine a larger disc, with the full name of the town, it would make some sense, and would have been balanced better.

Also the half-ring itself, has been machined burnished, so as to almost encroach on the engraving. No good engraver of that era, would go so close to the edge. In fact, any of you who have done any engraving, will know that it is almost impossible to control a graver tool that close to an edge.

Close examination of the key holes, shows no ware at all, from keys being inserted for winding.

The hands are only half done, and are too flat. In making hands of that style and age, there would be “v” cuts around the edges of the swirls, especially where they meet a change of direction. This feature is even present in 19thc pressed hands!

The case looks to be made by a 19th c cabinet maker: the trunk door is completely wrong for a clock of that supposed age. It looks like stained pine, but could be late Honduras mahogany, as was used by Edwardian furniture makers.

 

[Mike Phelan]

Well spotted!

I hadn't opened up the pics, but now I have, that chapter ring sure is home made, the holes for the winding squares are suspect and the hands are probably from a material dealer!

Wonder what the rest of it is like?

 

[Ansomnia]

I think Laprade brings up interesting points.

However, I still feel the dial is original. This is what I mean.

Compare the number "6" on the chapter ring with the same number engraved on the seconds ring and also the "6" of the date (16) shown in the date aperture. They are of the same style and likely the same engraver's work. You can do the same with the letters 1, 2, 3, 4, 5; comparing between the chapter ring and the seconds ring. They are identical. So the chapter ring belonged with the dial plate. That's very hard to fake. It's also a lot more trouble to fake an arcaded chapter ring than a simple circular one. Why bother with so many details if you feel the work is so inferior to real engraving?

As for the chapter ring not being engraved I think it is just a poor wax job; perhaps actually a paintjob. It looks like some amateur tried to paint over the (possibly worn) engraved markings and got sloppy with the paint. Oleg will have to confirm but it looks like an engraved chapter ring to me.

The signature cartouche has a very tight arc and would not support the inclusion of "St. Edmunds". I recall seeing other clocks from the area and they were signed "... Bury" as well. No mention the inclusion of "St. Edmunds". As for the screw, you would need to look at the dial plate from the back to see if it has wear marks for a taper pin. Also check under the cartouche to see what it looks like.

The hands are likely period work. They are also the right style and lengths. So I think they are likely original.

The dial plate is proper for an antique dial, observe the casting defect showing through as a crack. The matting is fine English work (done by an experienced craftsman), so is the engraving on the seconds dial. The winding holes do not get worn because when you use a proper key, the winding arbors hold the key steady and it never touches the sides of the hole. The arbor may get worn but they can also get replaced.

The dial also has a STRIKE/SILENT feature. If all these features are functional I think the dial is very unlikely to be a fake.

As I alluded to earlier, I can't vouch for the case being original.


Michael

 

[laprade]

Michael, I noticed the crack in the plate, which is common in some cast plates, and "sand cast surface" can only be properly done on a cast plate. For such a crack to be in a rolled plate, is hard to explain. However, I still have suspicions. As to the key holes, from my experience, there is always signs of ware, as it is very hard to not touch the face when inserting a key: hence the use of collets on the stove-enamelled faces.

Hopefully Oled can get closer to the artwork, and to the back as well.

I accept the idea of the "Bury" abbreviation, but "the screw"!

All that is fairly academic, when the case is taken into account. As they say in Mike's part of the world, "Ee, lad, it's a wrong un".

 

[Oled]

Thank you guys for you analysis, once again you opening my eyes on something I havent noticed at first. Thats what I call professionalism! This screw! Really no engraver could disrespect his work so to put a screw through what he just engraved!

OK, let me tell you something more about this clocks. The fact is they were brought from .. yeah, Holland. I start to think now that they working doing fakes there! ) I suspect also that the dial is mainly original. The dial plate is indeed engraved and just badly painted. Probably this dial belongs to some Dutch or Danish period clocks, but this name plate is surely some later fake. I even don't want to think about case age, but thank you for pointing me that it is from different style.

Just to put something in piggy bank of suspicious things on the dial. Please look closer on Strike-Silent hand. It is an ordinary German Vienna Regulators (aka Unghans "Le roi a Paris") hour or minute hand. Also the engravings in S-S ring looks modern, without darkening due to dirt, age and usage. I thing that earlier there was an original clockmakers medallion.

Now I wanted to show you Danish clocks of that age that as I think are not a fake. Please notice signed medallion, and overal bad condition due to age. Seems like these Danish clocks are so cheap that it's much more profitable to make English clocks out of them then to restore them.

 

[tom427cid]

Hi,
Although it is difficult to determine authenticity from a picture,there are elements that can be questioned-the second clock,I would suspect that the dial is not original to the case because of the irregular spacing with the door. It is particularly noticable that the arch of the dial does not match the arch of the door/mask.
Just my .02 worth
tom

 

[Ansomnia]

Michael, I noticed the crack in the plate, which is common in some cast plates, and "sand cast surface" can only be properly done on a cast plate. For such a crack to be in a rolled plate, is hard to explain. However, I still have suspicions. As to the key holes, from my experience, there is always signs of ware, as it is very hard to not touch the face when inserting a key: hence the use of collets on the stove-enamelled faces.

Hopefully Oled can get closer to the artwork, and to the back as well.

I accept the idea of the "Bury" abbreviation, but "the screw"!

All that is fairly academic, when the case is taken into account. As they say in Mike's part of the world, "Ee, lad, it's a wrong un".

Laprade, I think your analysis of the case is very telling. But as a replacement case, at least the fit of the dial with the arched opening in the hood is very good. Overall, I find the clock reasonable in appearance as a decorator's piece and a worthwhile collection depending... of course, on what the movement is like.

I have attached 3 photos from a 1705-1710 brass dial I have floating about. The winding holes are original and completely intact after 300 years. From personal experience, this is par for the course. The winding holes are almost always in good shape. It's a clock and not a watch. The keys (actually cranks) are quite large, clumsy to aim and difficult to ram into the dial. Winding (cranking) a quality longcase clock is a very deliberate act and cannot be rushed. It's simply not a modern day concept.


Michael

 

[Ansomnia]

Hi,
Although it is difficult to determine authenticity from a picture,there are elements that can be questioned-the second clock,I would suspect that the dial is not original to the case because of the irregular spacing with the door. It is particularly noticable that the arch of the dial does not match the arch of the door/mask.
Just my .02 worth
tom

Tom, I concur with you. The second clock is obviously not original. Your observation is one of my first impressions. The dial does not fit the hood at all.

Another observation is of the whole clock's appearance. Here you have a regular-sized, large dial being stuffed into an obviously tiny clock case. The case looks like either a normal-sized case chopped down in a rather unfortunate manner or a cabinetmaker's attempt to fit a regular-sized clock into a replacement case designed for a house with very low ceilings which I believe is common in the Schleswig-Holstein area from where this clock originally hailed.

I know who the Danish maker is. His name was Thor Peter Cronsee of Eckernförde. Eckernförde appears to be originally Prussian and for about 200 years was occupied by the Danes. The Germans took it back in 1813.


Michael

 

[Ansomnia]

...This screw! Really no engraver could disrespect his work so to put a screw through what he just engraved!

I tend to be more careful concluding about such things as a lot could have happened in 250 years. It's better to wait till you can examine the area of the clock carefully before concluding.

...
OK, let me tell you something more about this clocks. The fact is they were brought from .. yeah, Holland. I start to think now that they working doing fakes there! )...

I think it depends on how the seller is presenting the clock - did they say it is original or completely authentic? Some shops will try to restore an old clock as much as possible and sell it as an antique "decorator's item" but not as a collector's item. A very good indicator is the price they place on the clock. The case is not necessarily a bad item. As I said earlier, many (and I suspect most longcases "dwell" in replacement cases... and) at least it suits the movement. If you want a very convincing replacement case it could get very costly.

...
Just to put something in piggy bank of suspicious things on the dial. Please look closer on Strike-Silent hand. It is an ordinary German Vienna Regulators (aka Unghans "Le roi a Paris") hour or minute hand. Also the engravings in S-S ring looks modern, without darkening due to dirt, age and usage. I thing that earlier there was an original clockmakers medallion...

The hand is indeed not original but the lettering for STRIKE/SILENT is correct for the period as is the floral engraving set within the S-S dial space.

It is much easier for a forger to put a simple name boss in the arch instead of the S-S hand (and function). Once again, we need to put off concluding until we see what is behind the dial. If there is a correct mechanism for silencing the strike, IMO the dial would almost certainly be original.


Michael

 

[Oled]

Thanks Michael,

I agree with you - let's wait for movement pics for further investigation.

Regarding reseller: he is not very eloquenced in details, and when I asked about origin of these clocks he said they are English, nothing more. I can only guess about the price they were bought in Holland. My guess they were cheep.

You see, Russian antique clock market is very poor, you can imagine for example that only one or two such "English" longcase clocks are being sold now on the biggest Russian auction website. And so the prices are very high. Therefore very few people can understand anything about such clocks. So if you buy such dutch clocks for a penny there you can sell them for ten times or even more here.

BTW, Michael, if (in case) you have any additional info about that Thor Peter Cronsee of Eckernförde, please be so kind to give details. This clocks are from good guy I know and he's desperatelly seeking of any info on them. Thanks!

Oleg

 

[Ansomnia]

Oleg, I think I understand your situation. For what it's worth, the English longcase clock market in Canada is pretty dismal as well, but perhaps for different reasons.

Quite often such clocks were acquired at cheap prices by dealers and it depends on what their market values should be as well as whether the dealer added any value (restoration) to them. They have to make a living and do often perform a valuable service to the antiques trade.

It would be interesting to see what transpires.


Michael

 

[laprade]

Michael, nice pictures. By “ware”, I mean just what your pictures show: slight signs of colour change in the holes.: a highlight is to be seen on the top edge of your key hole. I wasn't suggesting "damage" as you get on stoved dials without collets.

Oled's second clock puts the whole thing in perspective. The clocks are Danish or Dutch, or a mix, and the cases, now have to be looked at in a different light. English rules don't apply. As I have said in other threads, the continentals went in for "open pegging" of mortise joints, and continued to do it up till and into the 20th c. One of the exceptions is the "lyre" style of France. They don't have any mortises.

I have done some snooping and found www.country-gallery.com which has a number of Scandinavian clocks on show. I was in fact, looking for a link sent to me by the Swedish member of the Crafts Commission, but have mislaid it.

What I found were a couple of examples of movements, which show the difference between Mora and Danish-Bornholmer, which will have some baring on what Oled finds behind the hood. You will note that the Bornholmer movement is almost identical to the UK type, but note the pillar shape. (the Moras I found all had steel posts) I also found a case of almost similar style, to Oled's clocks, but I couldn't find a dial with the irregular minute circles, but the one I show, solves the bad engraving! (Picture 5 is a Mora movement)

You will also note that the dial furniture is not fastened to a brass plate, but onto wood: this could explain the near pristine condition of the brass plate.

We live and learn, and I am grateful for the diversity that Oled has brought with his threads, it has introduced a refreshing change to the board.

 

[Ansomnia]

...
BTW, Michael, if (in case) you have any additional info about that Thor Peter Cronsee of Eckernförde, please be so kind to give details. This clocks are from good guy I know and he's desperatelly seeking of any info on them. Thanks!

Oleg

Oleg, all I can provide is the period during which he was known to have worked; 1764-1776. I hope that helps.


Michael

 

[Oled]

Hi colleagues,

Here are promised movement pic's. Looks like the dial fits good to the movement. But Strike-Silent feature is not attached = probably not original as supposed. Unfortunatelly name plate screw is not visible... What do you think?

Oleg

 

[laprade]

Oled: It is an English movement. The subtle differences I noticed on the Danish one, were the pillars, which I mentioned before, and I also noticed that the barrels are not grooved on the Danish ones I have seen. (like comtoise barrels)
The dial back looks old, but it is wrong, as it is supposed to be a cast dial, and they have cut-outs behind the chapter ring. Late dials were single rolled sheets. If the clock came from Holland, as you say, then whoever put this concoction together wasn't familiar with craft methods, of the supposed era of the clock. Not forgetting the difference between "English standard of engraving" and what is on the clock: except the name-plate.

I also have had a root round as regards the cabinet. The continental clock-makers used framed doors with fielded panels, whereas the English used single piece doors, and of course, no pegs. Because of this, ageing continental clock cases is difficult. The chamfered moulds on the trunk door styles and transoms, and the sides, is a "Gothic" device. In UK terms, one could set a date by reference to Strawberry Hill, when Gothic was in full swing, but the continent is a different story. You rarely see any French Gothic, plenty of German, and Dutch Gothic would have come from its connections with Hapsburg Austria, which ruled the Low Countries, after that late 17thc shambles: the Spanish Wars of Succession. The "pine" aspect of the case, isn't much help, either!

And for that matter, neither am I! Michael, over to you.

 

[jmclaugh]

Nice to see some pics of the movement and rear of the dial. While cartwheel dials, which have cut outs behind the chapter ring, became the norm as they were cheaper to make it is not the case that single sheet dials are a late feature on longcase clocks. They were the first type of dial to be used and continued to be used even when cartwheel dials were introduced. The missing strike/silent work could indicate a marriage of dial to movement but it could also have just have been lost over time but the dial from what I can see has no indication of ano movement having been fixed to it so it could be original. The movement is a typical looking English one. Shame the crutch is broken.

Having had a hunt the spandrels on this dial are descibed as "string of pearls" by Loomes who dates them to to 1760-85.

 

[Ansomnia]

Hi, I only have very limited time to respond and will try to be concise.

This is a rack strike movement. The strike train appears to be in place. You can make out the rack lever in the first photo, hanging just above the winding arbor.

The movement looks English and aside from some later repairs, is consistent with mid-18C construction. The dial appears original and I agree with Jonathan about reasons why the STRIKE/SILENT mechanism is missing.

The winding holes are original. I attach a photo of a 1685-90 winding hole. The matting of the dial is original, the matting of the shutter for the maintaining power mechanism is a latter-day replacement. If you don't believe me open the HOROLOGICAL MASTERWORKS book I mentioned before and look at any of the clocks with cut winding holes. This appearance of this winding hole is par for original dials.


Michael

 

[Oled]

Thank you very much, Michael, Jonathan and Stephen for your valuable inputs! I really appritiate that!
Regards,
Oleg

 

[laprade]

The chapter rings and top medallions etc on these clocks are made of pewter. One clock shown, has a wooden face: this was quite common in Northern and Western Jutland, for economic reasons.

 

[Jim DuBois]

here are some examples of some abused dials, and one or so not so abused, showing both the solid backs as well as the spoked backs discussed. As can be seen one of these poor dials has had 2 or 3 movements over the years, sort of a shame....but there is some good "English" engraving for comparisons. I have had more than one dial with screws right in the middle of engraving strokes....I suspect engravers engraved and dial fitters fit dials, or maybe clockmakers fit the hardware to the dials, with some results the engraver might not like....
-> posts merged by system <-
and here is the last of these...

 

[laprade]

When I first came upon this thread, I stated my suspicions and gave reasons for this and that. However, following in the narrow tradition of "English speaking culture", the notion that other cultures had as much to offer, kicked in! I had never given the Danish clock making industry a second thought, not even a first, to be truthful.

So to put the record straight, and also, I suppose, to apologize to the Danes, this is my corrected opinion.

The cases shown by Oled are Danish. I had thought were very late "English" ones. They are, in fact, surprisingly early (1770s to 1820s), from what the Danish clock museum people have told me, with regard to the maker's names.

As to the UK style movements: an even bigger surprize!

One of Denmark's most prominent makers, was an Englishman, by the name of William Green (born 1733 Died 1817), who had moved from Liverpool and set up business in Aabenraa. His father, Peter, born Lpool 1706, died Aabenraa 1795, also made clocks in Denmark.

An even bigger surprize, is that the Green clock cases are identical to those of the day in Liverpool, but made in Denmark. The only clue, being the place name on the dials.

One other interesting fact, pointed out by the Museum's Curator, is that most of the dials were made of "blued steel" and as I mentioned before, "wood" in poorer areas. He also said that the "Green" chapter rings were "pewter".

Needless to say, this has been a lesson to me, and in future I shall remember to escape my "Island cultural outlook" and see beyond the horizon.

 

[harold bain]

As to the UK style movements: an even bigger surprize!

One of Denmark's most prominent makers, was an Englishman, by the name of William Green (born 1733 Died 1817), who had moved from Liverpool and set up business in Aabenraa. His father, Peter, born Lpool 1706, died Aabenraa 1795, also made clocks in Denmark.

An even bigger surprize, is that the Green clock cases are identical to those of the day in Liverpool, but made in Denmark. The only clue, being the place name on the dials.

Why would this be a surprise? It's quite possible that he imported from England all the necessities to continue his business (cases, dials, rough movement kits).

 

[Jim DuBois]

One of the things we tend not to consider is a few "clockmakers" operated in more than one country. I have owned a John Wood, Philadelphia, and a John Wood, Scarboro that were virtually identical. Ballie lists a Joseph Wood in Scarboro, as well as John Wood, Philadelphia. Since the clock movements were so similar (and fairly unusual in some details) it is reasonable to assume they came from the same clockmaker. Also, not frequently discussed is some fair number of clockmakers were merchants far more than clockmakers. They would buy from a number of other makers, add their names, and sell them as their own. The Willard family here in the states did a fair amount of that even though they were good clockmakers in their own right.

Stateside record keeping of clockmaking fell far short of that kept in England thanks to the guild systems. Also, the degree of skill on this side of the pond was far poorer in many cases. A clock of the quality of the Wood I owned was immediately suspect as an American product….yet the dial signature was unquestionable, and the case was completely American in all respects....but was more formal than most American clocks suggesting even the casemaker had some ties back to merry old England

So, English clockmaking in Scandinavia falls into place IMO

 

[Ansomnia]

...One other interesting fact, pointed out by the Museum's Curator, is that most of the dials were made of "blued steel" and as I mentioned before, "wood" in poorer areas. He also said that the "Green" chapter rings were "pewter".

Needless to say, this has been a lesson to me, and in future I shall remember to escape my "Island cultural outlook" and see beyond the horizon.

Laprade, I see you have followed up with a posting after our short private discussion on this matter. While I can appreciate your sentiments and respect for horological works from other lands I think there are inconsistencies with regard to this discussion.

As I indicated to you, I have some doubts about the horological expertise of your Danish contact. I am attaching one of his photos of his clocks which you sent me by email. The photo shows a clock face from a William Green, Aabenraa clock. The German name "Apenrade" is used in place of Aabenraa because as we both realized, at the time, the Danes and Germans had long-running counterclaims on the same territories along their ever-shifting borders.

[click on photo for an enlarged view]

As I said in my email, this dial cannot be made of pewter as it is not screwed onto the dial plate.

It has been pinned. To pin such a chapter ring, brass studs have to be peened onto the chapter ring. Pewter is simply too soft for such a process and an British-trained clockmaker would not do such a thing. Pewter chapter rings are screwed onto dial plates. From what I have seen, pewter chapter rings are also from the realm of rustic country clockmakers, not professionally-train British clockmakers. William Green would not have reverted to rustic techniques. This dial is a dial made with the same quality as English/Scottish ones. My opinion is not an issue of being disrespectful to another culture but simply respectful of historical evidence.

Museum curators are also not horological experts unless the bulk of their collections are of important antique clocks. I think this chapter ring shown by your Danish contact is of silvered brass, just like all the Liverpudlian and English dials from that period. It is not pewter.


Michael

 

[laprade]

Michael, I understood what you said in your email, but I think you should take up the subject with the Curator of the Danish clock museum. Until, I come face to face with an example of the work, I accept the Danish gentleman's word.

You are assuming that the studs which appear to be brass, had to be "riveted" into the clock face.

There are actually two board member who can give us first hand information on their dials, which will partly decide the question.

Harold: as to "surprize". It was a surprize to find English clock-makers working in Denmark. Whether they imported their bits and pieces is irrelevant; the fact that they were there is the point.

 

[Ansomnia]

Michael, I understood what you said in your email, but I think you should take up the subject with the Curator of the Danish clock museum. Until, I come face to face with an example of the work, I accept the Danish gentleman's word.

You are assuming that the studs which appear to be brass, had to be "riveted" into the clock face.

There are actually two board member who can give us first hand information on their dials, which will partly decide the question...

Laprade, actually the studs are peened, not riveted. I would think peening requires the base material of the chapter ring to be much more stable and rigid than riveting because the stud would only grip the base using a beveled fitting. A beveled edge is a tiny sliver of metal and if made of pewter would fail in short order in this application. OTOH, riveting would be similar to applying a screw, which does work with a pewter chapter ring. A brass stud, riveted or peened on a pewter chapter ring would also show as a brown-coloured spot on the grey pewter chapter ring.

I understand your point about the Danish curator but from my own experience I know curators are not experts on everything. You may want to compare the Green clock's chapter ring to the pewter chapter ring of the clock you posted earlier as well as to other Liverpudlian clock dials. I think you will see what I mean then.


Michael

 

[laprade]

Michael, when I say "riveted", I mean beaten, or what some people called "peining" with an engineers hammer.

I have set in motion some inquiries, and when I get my answers, I will be proved wrong or right.

I know what you are saying about some museum people, I have been there!

 

[Ansomnia]

Hmmm, a simple thought came to mind.

I think it would be extremely difficult to peen a harder metal (brass) against a softer metal (pewter) which is providing the beveled hole. The hammering process involved would likely destroy the beveled pewter hole. Peening would only work if the stud material is softer or as soft as the chapter ring material.


Michael

 

[laprade]

Michael,
The pewter chapters wouldn't have brass studs, like those on brass chapters, as to silver them to match the pewter, would be almost impossible. I am going to find out if brass studs could be in place when the chapters were cast. (I don't think the chapters were cut from larger cast sheets, as it would cause problems with the finishing). I even suspect that some of the cheaper clocks had the numerals cast as well. It could explain why some of the engraving looks to be very irregular.

Readers should remember, that the chapter rings on English clocks are engraved with a hammer and chisel. The ring is set into a bed of pitch for this to be done, requiring heat, to both set, and release them. Pewter dials wouldn't stand up to this.