Help please with pocket watch markings!

[Vagirlloveswatches]

I have this beautiful Waltham pocket watch when you open the back it has a crown and the word “warranted” then if you open the dust cover it says “14k” Would this be gold or gold filled?
I love this watch. I would really love you’re help with it since I’m new and you’re the experts!

 

[Robert Sweet]

Welcome to the NAWCC pocket watch message board.

Anytime you observe a watch case marked warranted or guaranteed it will be gold-filled. The trademark indicates the case was made by the Philadelphia Watch Case Co. This company was purchased by the Keystone Watch Case Co. abt. 1900.

Robert

 

[Rick Hufnagel]

Welcome to the nawcc message board!

Here's a link to the Philadelphia watch case co in the encyclopedia.

Philadelphia Watch Case Co.

Great history of the company and has their list of grades and what they mean.

There's also a ton of info on Waltham if you use the search bar above!

Have a great day

 

[musicguy]

I would also like to extend my Welcome too, can you show
some photos of the movement(the works inside)


Rob

 

[Ethan Lipsig]

Robert, I am not questioning your conclusion that the case in question is gold-filled, but I do question your statement that "[a]nytime you observe a watch case marked warranted or guaranteed it will be gold-filled." I don't think that's true.

I collect solid gold or platinum pocket watches almost exclusively. Some of their cases are marked "warranted," such as the case on this Elgin Grade 72 21j convertible.



Some of my solid gold or platinum cases might be marked "guaranteed." I haven't looked through my collection for an example.

I find the best way to determine whether a case is solid gold is to see if the back or front cover flexes when you gently press its center. Gold-filled cases do not flex.

 

[Jim Haney]

Ethan,
You have an exception, and their is usually an EXCEPTION, however in this case (Ha)The Warranted is used to Warrant the 14K assay mark..

I usually follow, as a general rule, Robert's advise about the words warranted or guaranteed.

Or we can slightly amend the statement to say when you see the words warranted or guaranteed, without a assay mark, it is most likely Gold filled.

 

[Robert Sweet]

Robert, I am not questioning your conclusion that the case in question is gold-filled, but I do question your statement that "[a]nytime you observe a watch case marked warranted or guaranteed it will be gold-filled." I don't think that's true.

I collect solid gold or platinum pocket watches almost exclusively. Some of their cases are marked "warranted," such as the case on this Elgin Grade 72 21j convertible.

View attachment 533931 View attachment 533930 View attachment 533932 View attachment 533927 View attachment 533928 View attachment 533929

Some of my solid gold or platinum cases might be marked "guaranteed." I haven't looked through my collection for an example.

I find the best way to determine whether a case is solid gold is to see if the back or front cover flexes when you gently press its center. Gold-filled cases do not flex.

Ethan,

I agree that your case is gold because in addition to "warranted" the words "US Assay" are included which give the notion that the US Gov't tested or approved the karat of the gold, which it did not.

As I recall, the words "US Assay" were not permitted to be engraved on watch cases after abt. 1905.

Do you have other gold cases that are marked "Warranted" without the words "US Assay"?

Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

(Edit) I see that Jim and I were typing about the same time and have the same opinion.

Robert

 

[Robert Sweet]

additional info with respect to "Warranted US Assay"...……

Robert

 

[Robert Sweet]

additional information about the use of US Assay...……….

Robert

 

[Robert Sweet]

Finally found the directive...……

Robert

 

[Ethan Lipsig]

Jim and Robert, while I deeply respect your erudition, I think it is an overstatement to say that watch cases mark "warranted" or "guaranteed" are rarely solid gold. I have looked through the A-E watches in my collection to find solid gold cases with those words. Besides the Elgin Grade 72 that I showed in post 5, here are the other "warranted" or "guaranteed"-marked solid gold cases in my A-E portion of my collection.

"Warranted 18 Carat Fine"


Anon. Swiss Pivot Chronometer


Louis Audemars


Badollet

"Warranted to Assay 19k"


Bulova

"Warranted 14k U.S. Assay"


Elgin Grade 91

"Warranted 14k"


Elgin Grade 155


Elgin Grade 156


Elgin Frances Rubie

"U.S. Assay 14k"


Elgin Grade 162

"Warranted 14k to Assay:


Elgin Grade 190

"Guaranteed 14k "


Elgin Grade 190​

 

[roughbarked]

In the case of gold filled, it usually states, warranted 10 years or some other number of years of wear.

 

[Jim Haney]

Ethan,
Yes, I would agree that is a not set in cement rules but established watch case companies were above board such as you Hayden W.Wheeler & Solitary, Roy, etc and in the US we spell Karat instead of a "C" and your European cases could be subject to checking because of no purity laws and speaking of them and Robert's ads about them, we have a time line that is hard to tie to the cases manufacturing dates so, I repeat, I agree with Robert's statement of generally being very suspicious of the words, unless backed by a purity rating, .750,.585, etc, then the case companies could end up in court for mis-labeling

So. if I see the words and a purity rating on the case, I am good with it, but if the see the words without a rating I would have it tested and more importantly, I would not buy it unless it could be verified.

 

[Vagirlloveswatches]

Thank you so much for your help! I’m excited to be apart of the forum. Everyone has been amazing!

Welcome to the nawcc message board!

Here's a link to the Philadelphia watch case co in the encyclopedia.

Philadelphia Watch Case Co.

Great history of the company and has their list of grades and what they mean.

There's also a ton of info on Waltham if you use the search bar above!

Have a great day

hank

 

[Vagirlloveswatches]

Here is a picture of the works

 

[Vagirlloveswatches]

Also, just to make sure (I have gotten a little confused) my watch is gold filled right?

 

[Ethan Lipsig]

Vagirlloveswatches, I think your watch likely is gold-filled, but let me ask you this. If you press down in the center of the rear cover of the case, do you feel the case "give"? If not, it is gold-filled. If it flexes, it likely is solid gold.

 

[Vagirlloveswatches]

It doesn’t give. You’re so right! Thank you!

 

[Jeff Hess]

Welcome to the NAWCC pocket watch message board.

Anytime you observe a watch case marked warranted or guaranteed it will be gold-filled. The trademark indicates the case was made by the Philadelphia Watch Case Co. This company was purchased by the Keystone Watch Case Co. abt. 1900.

Robert

Gosh Robert,

I have been fighting this internet myth for 20 years! I cannot count the number of fights my wife (who runs our ebay deal) has been in with people sending us nasty-grams saying our watch is GOLD FILLED because it says warranted or Guranteed. I have long wondered if this was something written in some book or magazine and perpetuated on the net or just where this totally erroneous notion comes from

This is SIMPLY NOT TRUE!

Jeff

Sorry but this is one of the top 3 or four bugaboos and longstanding outrageous statements we have been fighting on the net . (Along with any phrase that starts with "Rolex never did that"!)

 

[Robert Sweet]

Jim and Robert, while I deeply respect your erudition, I think it is an overstatement to say that watch cases mark "warranted" or "guaranteed" are rarely solid gold. I have looked through the A-E watches in my collection to find solid gold cases with those words. Besides the Elgin Grade 72 that I showed in post 5, here are the other "warranted" or "guaranteed"-marked solid gold cases in my A-E portion of my collection.

"Warranted 18 Carat Fine"

View attachment 533962
Anon. Swiss Pivot Chronometer

View attachment 533972
Louis Audemars

View attachment 533963
Badollet

"Warranted to Assay 19k"

View attachment 533964
Bulova

"Warranted 14k U.S. Assay"

View attachment 533965
Elgin Grade 91

"Warranted 14k"

View attachment 533966
Elgin Grade 155

View attachment 533967
Elgin Grade 156

View attachment 533971
Elgin Frances Rubie

"U.S. Assay 14k"

View attachment 533968
Elgin Grade 162

"Warranted 14k to Assay:

View attachment 533969
Elgin Grade 190

"Guaranteed 14k "

View attachment 533970
Elgin Grade 190​

Ethan,

Thanks for sharing your really nice gold cases. I should have been more thoughtful, when I used the word "anytime" in my post #2.

The manufacturer of the subject case was careful not to place "14K" and "Warranted" on the same case cover. If both were on the same cover or lid, it may have given the impression that the case was solid 14K gold.

Gosh Robert,

I have been fighting this internet myth for 20 years! I cannot count the number of fights my wife (who runs our ebay deal) has been in with people sending us nasty-grams saying our watch is GOLD FILLED because it says warranted or Guranteed. I have long wondered if this was something written in some book or magazine and perpetuated on the net or just where this totally erroneous notion comes from

This is SIMPLY NOT TRUE!

Jeff

Sorry but this is one of the top 3 or four bugaboos and longstanding outrageous statements we have been fighting on the net . (Along with any phrase that starts with "Rolex never did that"!)

Mr. Hess,

I'm really sorry that you are so offended by my statement. Please accept my apologies.

Robert

 

[Ethan Lipsig]

At the risk of beating a dead horse to death, I found many other examples of solid gold case marked "U.S. Assay," "Guaranteed" or "Warranted" when I had the time to finish reviewing my collection.

 

[Ethan Lipsig]

Here are a two more.

 

[BibbityBubs]

I used to work at a gold buying location that purchased serious amounts of weight and I can't tell you how many times we would get solid gold cases in that people insisted were gold filled.

It was just a crummy tactic used by watch case manufacturers to deceive customers. "Guaranteed / Warranted to wear X years" is what most people see on watches and they just assume guaranteed / warranted in any manner must be gold filled.

I never did mind being on the buying end of it though, if I am out buying watches and you say its GF, then so be it!

 

[Jim Haney]

o. if I see the words and a purity rating on the case, I am good with it, but if the see the words guaranteed or warranted, without a rating I would have it tested and more importantly, I would not buy it unless it could be verified.

I used to work at a gold buying location that purchased serious amounts of weight and I can't tell you how many times we would get solid gold cases in that people insisted were gold filled.

It was just a crummy tactic used by watch case manufacturers to deceive customers. "Guaranteed / Warranted to wear X years" is what most people see on watches and they just assume guaranteed / warranted in any manner must be gold filled.

I never did mind being on the buying end of it though, if I am out buying watches and you say its GF, then so be it!

I would love to see example of your statement, Warranted 10,20, 25, Years that test solid gold, it would be a rare case indeed

Can you show us one?

Thanks.

 

[musicguy]

Guaranteed / Warranted to wear X years" is what most people see on watches and they just assume guaranteed / warranted in any manner must be gold filled.

I'm with Jim on this one, why would a company deceive someone
to their own detriment and say a watch is "Warranted to wear X years"(as you say)
when it was a solid gold case, they cost more to manufacture(and gold content) than filled.

My comment has nothing to do with Ethan's beautiful cases.
Just the "Warranted to wear X years" ones.


Rob

 

[OldSchool1959]

Ethan,
You have an exception, and their is usually an EXCEPTION, however in this case (Ha)The Warranted is used to Warrant the 14K assay mark..

I usually follow, as a general rule, Robert's advise about the words warranted or guaranteed.

Or we can slightly amend the statement to say when you see the words warranted or guaranteed, without a assay mark, it is most likely Gold filled.

You are absolutely correct. As a Gold Buyer for many years I have ran across this many times, and drilled many times to prove to people that their 14K Montauk pocket watch case was actually Gold Filled. Ugly green bubbles, but that's another story!
Unless it was marked 585 Fine, 14K US Assay, 14K Guaranteed, or just 14K I never had a problem with it, and I drilled everything. It was always what it claimed to be. If I am not mistaken the Federal Gvmt has a law about the way one has to describe actual solid gold by definition on anything produced in America. Of course one does run across the exception to every rule. Isn't there a rule for that also?

 

[Jeff Hess]

robert
Love you man~ not offended by you at all! respect! Just flummoxed after 20 years of fighting this fallacy to see it perpetuated! And truly, I think this info was published somewhere long ago and would love to find the source.

Like the gentlemen above I have embarrassingly profited my self on this issue. I cannot count gow many times one of my staff of 38 people will by a "collection of gold filled watches" only to see a watch or two in the collection that was in fact gold. Every staff member who does this gets the "warranted/guaranteed fallacy talk and then the "push the case for flex" lesson. And selling is tough too because you get hate mail from people claiming we are a fraud for selling warranted 14k watch as gold. (and it is!)

Jeff, did not mean to offend. But this fallacy has been a hot topic in our office for20 years.

 

[OldSchool1959]

I would love to see example of your statement, Warranted 10,20, 25, Years that test solid gold, it would be a rare case indeed

Can you show us one?

Thanks.

Now this I want to see. I have never seen one before.

 

[Ethan Lipsig]

BibbityBubs didn't say he'd seen solid gold cases marked "guaranteed to wear X years," or the like. I understood him to say that the myth that any case that has the word "guaranteed" or "warranted" on it is gold-filled is so prevalent that owners of solid gold cases wrongly believed the cases were gold-filled merely because those words were stamped before the carat designation, e.g., "guaranteed 14k".

 

[musicguy]

Maybe you are right Ethan, maybe I misunderstood what he was saying.


Rob

 

[BibbityBubs]

I would love to see example of your statement, Warranted 10,20, 25, Years that test solid gold, it would be a rare case indeed

Can you show us one?

Thanks.

I didn't mean watches marked "Warranted X Years" are gold. People are just so used to seeing "Warranted/Guaranteed X Years" that anytime they see Warranted/Guaranteed in any format they just assume it is gold filled no matter what. So a customer would have a watch that said "Warranted to Assay 14K Fine" and they were insistent on it being gold filled, not solid gold.

 

[OldSchool1959]

I didn't mean watches marked "Warranted X Years" are gold. People are just so used to seeing "Warranted/Guaranteed X Years" that anytime they see Warranted/Guaranteed in any format they just assume it is gold filled no matter what. So a customer would have a watch that said "Warranted to Assay 14K Fine" and they were insistent on it being gold filled, not solid gold.

I hate to say it, but if they are dead set on what they have is gold filled and I have told them its 14K I would take it. It's not on me to educate them on their items. They should know. Some people are their own worst enemy. I always let them own the battlefield, while I won the war.......

 

[BibbityBubs]

Generally if someone brings me an item, I am honest as possible. No point in trying to fleece someone for a few hundred bucks. They are seeking my advice.

Now if I am at a show, estate sale, someones shop, yea dude I’ll buy that Warranted 14k watch you think is gold fill and is priced for 95 bucks.

 

[Jim Haney]

It has been our experience, on this message board, that exactly the opposite is most common inquiry, than than your assertion.

We have perhaps 100's of threads that the poster is trying to validate that his Gold Filled case is actually Gold.

 

[roughbarked]

I'm still at a loss as to who "BibbityBubs" is?

 

[musicguy]

I'm still at a loss as to who "BibbityBubs" is?

BibbityBubs is a registered user like you



Rob

 

[roughbarked]

Sorry, missed the name when scrolling through. Got it now.

 

[antique_collector]

Hi Everyone. I've been a member of this site for a while but I'm a reader more than "poster" - However in this case I felt compelled, albiet almost 2 years late! Ethan and Jeff are correct that their pocket watch cases are gold even if it says "warranted" or "U.S. Assay". As long as it marks the gold content ie 12k, 14k, etc.

The place to back up what I've claimed - "Complete Price Guide to Watches" by Richard E. Gilbert, Tom Engle and Cooksey Shugart. I love the book - it has everything (almost) that you want to know about pocket watch companies, etc. These books are put out every year but I haven't updated mine since 2014 but it will show the same images/references. In the beginning of the book there is a full page of SOLID GOLD MARKS by numerous companies. They also show marks for Gold-Filled and silver cases. They don't have EVERY type out there, but it's a helpful guide.

A place I work at used to have an XRF Analyzer (X-Ray Fluorescence) which was VERY helpful when identifying precious metals.

Not sure if anyone will read this since it was posted a couple years ago but I thought "why not"?

Christine

 

[Jim Haney]

Christine,
Fist of all welcome to the the NAWCC Forums and your 1st post.
I am glad you have discovered the price guide and it is full of great information.
I am an experience collect and we deal with the many post of inquiring people who want to know if the case they are asking about is GOLD.

If it says Warranted XX years it is usually 98% Gold Filled. If it has a .585,.750, etc. purity stamp, it is Gold.