Help needed with springs

eemoore

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I am trying to repair a Korean movement and have taken it apart, cleaned everything, and now I am trying to reassemble the movement. The problem I have is that with the spring clamp on, there is too much pressure on the springs and I cannot get the other wheels back in place. This is the first time i have worked with these types of springs, so I am not sure of the correct process. I have watched a few videos but have not found out my problem as yet. Am I suppose to leave the clamp on ( like I saw in some videos) or remove the clamp and rewind once it is assembled. I hope I am making myself clear. Please see attache photo. Thanks very much.

IMG_2933.jpeg
 

Willie X

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Hopefully you have a spring winder?

If so, wind er up about 3/4 inch smaller, loose the "C" clip and readjust your tie wire. Then carefully let the spring relax back into the already snug wire.

Note, it may take several tries to get it just right and be sure to keep some finger pressure on the sides of the spring when letting it up and down in your winder. That's how they usually 'get ya', by spilling off to the side.

Wind on,. Willie X
 

wow

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Willie, I don’t think that is a wire. It’s hard to see in the photo. Anyway, eemore, like Willie said, wind it up tight and remove the clamp. That clamp is for eight day springs. Yours is a 30 day spring and the clamp takes up too much space. Use a piece of strong wire and twist it tightly around the spring after it is wound up. Then release it until the power is down. Be careful!
 

eemoore

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Hopefully you have a spring winder?

If so, wind er up about 3/4 inch smaller, loose the "C" clip and readjust your tie wire. Then carefully let the spring relax back into the already snug wire.

Note, it may take several tries to get it just right and be sure to keep some finger pressure on the sides of the spring when letting it up and down in your winder. That's how they usually 'get ya', by spilling off to the side.

Wind on,. Willie X
Willie, I don’t think that is a wire. It’s hard to see in the photo. Anyway, eemore, like Willie said, wind it up tight and remove the clamp. That clamp is for eight day springs. Yours is a 30 day spring and the clamp takes up too much space. Use a piece of strong wire and twist it tightly around the spring after it is wound up. Then release it until the power is down. Be careful!
Ok thanks very much.The clamp takes up too much space ,as you said. Yes , I am confused about the wire . The wire would have to go around the loop end as well since the two ends would have to connect. Correct? Then I would put it in the plate and release it after the two plates are back together. I think I understand.
 

Willie X

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Yes, the wire would go round the whole spring. When properly captured the loop to arbor distance won't be much different than the actual measurements of the plate, from to first arbor to the post where the loop goes.

I mistook your hammer wire for a tie wire in the photo. Thanks wow for pointing that out. I thought it might be a ' belt and suspenders' thing.

Willie X
 

shutterbug

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So get some strong wire - 14 gauge or better - and be sure the twist holds well as you let the spring down into it.
 

Willie X

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Should look something like this. These springs are tied off at the correct point but yet to be completely let down into the wire. When let down completely, nothing will change except the coils will all gather at the outside, against the wire. Willie X

IMG_20200127_144204.jpg
 

Bruce Alexander

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When using C-Clamps I've found it helpful to keep the loop end close to the clamp's opening so that there isn't much "tail' to deal with. Wire will probably work better with your spring. Another method of restraint involves use of an appropriately sized hose clamp.
Good luck and please do be careful handing this monster. In less than a blink of the eye it can be all over, except for the healing.
 

Dick Feldman

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My take on these movements is that they are inferior and potentially hazardous.
Others here may disagree. Asian made movements are made with thinner material and have some serious drawbacks in design. They normally run 30 day main springs which overpower the already poor design and substandard materials.
If you are able to assemble the movement, you may find the first failure will be with the click assemblies.
When a click assembly fails, the entire force of the main spring (already marginally too large) is released to the winding key as well as the hand winding the movement. This all happens in a nanosecond and the result is normally a severely cut hand and a blue thumbnail. Operating one of these movements can be compared to walking in a mine field. You may make it through and then again......
The potential risk of injury is too high and I refuse to work on Asian movement clocks. I have plenty of quality built clock movements which will keep me busy for many years.
Best,
Dick
 

shutterbug

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If you wanted to, you could convert it to an 8 day clock pretty easily by replacing the springs with American style 8 day springs. Be sure to put the spring tensioners back in when you're done. They keep the spring out of the wheels.
 
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Dick Feldman

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I do not think that 8 day springs are a good solution for being overpowered, under engineered and made with poor quality materials.
That solves only one of three limiting factors.
Others may feel different.
Dick
 

wow

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Winding them up tight seems to be where the problem is. They do better if you wind them about 2/3 tight and let them run a couple of weeks and wind them again. I suspect that one of the reasons eight day clocks were invented was that people didn’t like winding their 30 hour clocks every day. And I suspect that one reason 30 day clocks were invented was because people didn’t like having to wind them every week. And I suspect that 400 day, Atmos, and quartz were invented so people wouldn’t have to wind them but once a year or not at all. Like Dick said, I think the Asian 30 day movements were mass produced and inferior to most. I just tell my customers to wind them less tight and more often. My two cents.
Will
 

Willie X

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An American spring (.0165" or .018" ) will be stronger than the original spring by a good bit.

If you want more space just shorten the existing spring to 108" and your clock will still run for about 18 - 20 days, if in good condition.

Willie X
 

shutterbug

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I'm not sure about the thickness, but the spring will fill a room when it's unwound :D
 
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Willie X

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Usually .0155" thick and 155" long. They do vary and most have the little ridge/rib at the center.

When cut off to about 9' they make excellent springs for American clocks.

Willie X
 

Bruce Alexander

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Thanks Willie.

I've seen a spring with the ridge running down the middle. It seemed to give the spring more "stiffness" or resistance to winding/coiling. If that's true, the thickness measurement is not conventional. If you wanted to replace with a conventional spring, I suppose you would need to directly measure the amount of torque the spring generates and try to go from there. A thickness of 0.0155" is pretty thin compared to most flat loop ends I've seen. I suppose that's one reason the Korean manufacturers were able to squeeze 30 days into an 8-day design.

I've also read somewhere that spring length has an inverse relationship with the amount of torque they generate. In other words, all else being equal, a shorter spring will provide more torque (for a shorter period of time).

It seems to me that your suggested approach of shortening the spring would be the most practical Willie. It would give more room but I don't think that it would make it any safer to work with. I still get a little nervous working with large springs.

I won't go looking for a Korean movement to work on, but if someone brings one to me I suppose that I'll deal with it. Hopefully I won't regret that decision. :oops:

Regards,

Bruce
 

eemoore

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My take on these movements is that they are inferior and potentially hazardous.
Others here may disagree. Asian made movements are made with thinner material and have some serious drawbacks in design. They normally run 30 day main springs which overpower the already poor design and substandard materials.
If you are able to assemble the movement, you may find the first failure will be with the click assemblies.
When a click assembly fails, the entire force of the main spring (already marginally too large) is released to the winding key as well as the hand winding the movement. This all happens in a nanosecond and the result is normally a severely cut hand and a blue thumbnail. Operating one of these movements can be compared to walking in a mine field. You may make it through and then again......
The potential risk of injury is too high and I refuse to work on Asian movement clocks. I have plenty of quality built clock movements which will keep me busy for many years.
Best,
Dick
Thanks so much for your insight. I agree, they are of poor quality. I noticed that right away. I am trying to help with a friend's clock but may just forget it. thanks to all who have given me so much information.
 

eemoore

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When using C-Clamps I've found it helpful to keep the loop end close to the clamp's opening so that there isn't much "tail' to deal with. Wire will probably work better with your spring. Another method of restraint involves use of an appropriately sized hose clamp.
Good luck and please do be careful handing this monster. In less than a blink of the eye it can be all over, except for the healing.
thanks so much for the advice.
 
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eemoore

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Usually .0155" thick and 155" long. They do vary and most have the little ridge/rib at the center.

When cut off to about 9' they make excellent springs for American clocks.

Willie X
Thanks again willie. Yes my springs have a ridge in the center. appreciate all of your insight.
 
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kinsler33

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Korean clocks are repairable, though the clicks should indeed be carefully looked after. The escapements are nicely made and don't generally wear out.
 

SuffolkM

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Bruce, on a small technicality; for the same material, thickness and width, a shorter spring does not have more torque than a longer spring. It just runs for less time. The distraction is that shorter springs are generally chosen to be thicker too. One way to think about this is that you can have lots of torque for a short time or little torque for a long time, just by picking extremes of thicker-short or thinner-long springs. What you really want is sufficient torque, delivered over 8 days, so picking a length, thickness and width that is compatible with the clock. A lack of satisfactory right answer to that, other than rules of thumb, seems to be a reflection of the many open-ended questions this raises!
 

Bruce Alexander

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Bruce, on a small technicality
Okay. The "strength" relationships expressed to me were: width=direct relationship, thickness=exponentially direct, length=inverse relationship.

Edit: Perhaps I am using the wrong terminology. I think "Power" might be more appropriate, not "Torque" or "Strength".

Thanks SuffolkM :thumb:

The main point remains though, these types of springs don't compare directly to the more typical flat steel springs.
 
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SuffolkM

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The total stored potential energy of the spring has those characteristics. We could use units of joules or, like in batteries, you can state it in other ways that involve power multiplied by time - but it's not power or torque that expresses that 'overall energy content of a coiled spring'.

Torque is the rotational force - the ability to do work at an instant (units of newton meters, or pound feet if you prefer). Power is the rate of work (unit of watts). We want the power to be sufficient to run the movement and the torque to be constant across the running time of the clock.Think fusee cones.

All that said, I think we're all good here. A ridge in the spring is quite interesting (a very different bending moment from a flat cross section - even more terminology and equations for this!). Back to the thread...;)
 

Bruce Alexander

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The total stored potential energy of the spring has those characteristics. We could use units of joules or, like in batteries, you can state it in other ways that involve power multiplied by time - but it's not power or torque that expresses that 'overall energy content of a coiled spring'.
I tracked down my source SuffolkM, and according to his formulas, I wasn't wrong.
The information provided was in the context of trying to find a comparable replacement spring when a spring of exact matching measurements is not available.

He (John Tope) states that the length of a spring is indirectly proportional to it's strength.
In his example it illustrates "Solve to compare strength of 120" spring to a 96" mainspring.
96"/120" = 80%. The 120" spring is 80% the strength of the 96" spring. Said another way the 120" spring is 20% weaker than the 96" spring. My mistake was equating "torque" with his use of the word "strength". In the context used, however, I think "torque" could reasonably be assumed.

He goes further to recommend that a spring of original dimensions should not be shortened by more than 10% if repairing a broken end.

So now I'm confused. :confused:

Perhaps I'll write to him to ask exactly what he means by "Strength".

Edit:

I did send an e-mail. In context, I think we might be discussing strength vs. endurance. We'll see...perhaps.
 
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kinsler33

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[QUOTE="SuffolkM, post: 1477985, member: 93133" A ridge in the spring is quite interesting (a very different bending moment from a flat cross section - even more terminology and equations for this!).
[/QUOTE]

I've wondered about the ridged springs. They seem to work rather nicely. The ridge stiffens the spring without stiffening it Otherwise your 31-day mainspring would be the size of a Frisbee.

I do wish the Koreans had used better steel, but the movements are clever and generally quite trouble-free.


M Kinsler
 

Bruce Alexander

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SuffolkM
I did double-check and he states that the inverse relationship of length and strength was accurate. In context, his use of Strength=Torque. So..while a longer spring has a longer run time (power), all else being equal, a shorter has more torque over a shorter run time. I think that perhaps our disagreement is mostly semantics. Maybe I'll try to test the inverse relationship out someday with a discarded spring.

kinsler33
I did replace one of these shortened (?) ridged Korean Mainsprings which had been installed in an American 8-Day movement. As I recall, it just seemed to provide too much torque for the Gear Train. It was on just one Train of a Time and Strike, and there was more wear on the Ridged Spring Train. If I run into another one of these springs, I'll take its physical measurements and try to get a handle on its torque curve. I may have saved it. I'll have to check my boneyard.
 
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