Help needed with New Master 100 days clock

[Jmurrell]

I am in need of some help with a New Master 100 day anniversary clock. I have run out of ideas and it still doesn't run but for a very short period of time.

I am trying to fix this clock for a friend who bought the clock in the 60's. He says the clock has never run since he bought it.

When I got the clock it didn't have any suspension spring and I have since purchased one to fit it. I oiled the clock but I didn't do any pivot work as it has never really run. I put the clock in beat and it seems to have some recoil when the pallet pins drop of the escape wheel teeth, but in a very short period of time it stops.

Is there something that I should know about this brand of anniversary clock verses the other anniversary clocks?

Any ideas would be appreciated as the help I get from this site has always been a life saver when I run out of ideas.

I will say that this New Master is about the cheapest built anniversary that I have ever worked on. I tried to slow the pendulum down some at one point so that the pendulum would take a wider swing and hopefully help the pallets to clear the escape wheel teeth and to my surprise the pendulum hit the upright post that the movement sits on.

Thanks for any help you can give
John

 

[shutterbug]

400 day clocks are basically the same. You need good rotation and over-swing for them to work. Can you post a video so we can see what's happening?

 

[MartinM]

If you're familliar with pin pallet movements, this one is really no different in how power gets transferred.
Make sure you check for ample clearance between the verge pin and the suspension fork. Too tight and it'll rob all the power.

 

[Randy Beckett]

As a way of determining if you have a power problem or an adjustment problem, you might want to fully relax the mainspring then give it only 1/3 to 1/2 turn of power and try to restart it. It won't run that way, but if the power is ok, the escape wheel will move each time the escapement releases. This is also a good and precise way of setting the beat as you can easily see the difference in overswing to each side as the swing slowly dies.

If the escape wheel is moving, make note of the amount of pendulum swing you have at the point the escapement first fails to release.

 

[Jmurrell]

I am going to try and post a video.
John[video=youtube_share;Hzhj_DYK5A4]http://youtu.be/Hzhj_DYK5A4[/video]

 

[Jmurrell]

Shutterbug, I don't think I have very much overswing but I am not sure I understand just how to increase that. I have always been somewhat confused about how that is accomplished.
MartinM, I have ample clearance between the verge pin and the suspension fork. Actually I thought I might have too much to begin with and because of that it was not lifting the pallet pins high enough to clear the escape wheel teeth as the power drops.
Randy I have released the power on the main spring and only wound it a couple of turns but I didn't use that to measure overswing. I see the overswing and I am not sure I have enough but I do not understand how to get more. Maybe I am just missing the obvious.
thanks John

 

[shutterbug]

The movement of the whole thing is unusually stiff. The fork should be parallel, with about the width of a piece of paper between the side of the fork and the pin. Overswing can be increased by lowering the fork a little, but you also reduce the total swing so use tiny adjustments. I'm not sure that's the problem though. Your escape wheel only unlocked once in the video that I could see. It has to unlock (move) every time. You have a power problem, an anchor problem, or a timing problem. Try posting another video with a little longer pendulum movement to start.

 

[Jmurrell]

It does unlock every time but only for a short period of time.

I will try and post another video.

I did notice on thing with this clock the verge pin and the pin pallets are not perpendicular to each other but I was afraid to try and move the pallet block for fear of breaking the shaft. I thought I could compensate by setting the beat a little to one side. I have had them like this before and that did work.

John

 

[Jmurrell]

Here is the video.
John

http://youtu.be/eH79Nw60pBA

 

[Jmurrell]

I have the video on U tube but I am having trouble getting it here.
John

 

[shutterbug]

Yeah, that link doesn't work.

 

[Randy Beckett]

I think this is the new link you have been having trouble with.

It looks to me that the clock is not in beat and the fork may be a little too high.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eH79Nw6OpBA

 

[shutterbug]

Definitely out of beat. I think the fork position is OK, and you'll have enough over-swing on each side when you get them even. It sure turns fast for a torsion clock. Might be typical of the 100 day variety. You need to adjust the beat so you have equal over-swing on each side AFTER the EW turns.

 

[John Hubby]

I agree it's out of beat. John, since the anchor pin is mounted on its own collet separate from the pallet anchor, you can turn that collet on the arbor shaft to set the anchor pin perpendicular to the pallets. The collet is a tight friction fit but will turn if you clamp the anchor arbor securely and turn the collet using smooth jaw pliers.

Some observations about the Master (Nisshindo Watch Co) torsion clock mainsprings and barrels:

This 100-Day clock has the mainspring in an open barrel, so it can be removed, cleaned, lubed and replaced the same as any similar design.

HOWEVER: When you are working on one of the 200-Day and 400-Day Nisshindo clocks DO NOT try to open the mainspring barrel if you find it to be crimped shut over the cover plate. They are permanently sealed at the factory and you will severely damage the barrel trying to get them apart. They were well lubricated with a synthetic oil so there is no problem with them going dry or having deteriorated oil. Just clean the outside of the barrel and return it to service.

 

[Jmurrell]

Hi everyone I have tried unwinding the mainspring and setting the clock in beat. I think I have it in beat now but I still cannot get it to run but for a short time.

I have included this picture because I think if you are looking at the verge pin swing from side to side to see if it is in time it would be deceiving as the verge pin leans to the right even when the pin pallets are horizontal.
The pallets are falling even I think, but the verge pin makes it look to be out of time.

I should be able to put the pins in time even if the verge pin is not even or am I mistaken.

I will try and post another video.
John





[video=youtube_share;x6zAxBPSeEk]http://youtu.be/x6zAxBPSeEk[/video]

 

[MartinM]

Sounds like you may need to 'center' your clock.
They can run with minor imbalance to the overall symmetry; But, not at full power.
Remove the suspension spring and observe the point at which the anchor pin operates from left to right when manually moving the anchor.
The anchor pin should be symmetrical in its operation, in all ways, from left to right.
The same total distance of travel in both directions, but most importantly, the point at which it switches from being driven to being the driver of the fork.
Once you have that symmetry, then continue doing the same thing all the way down to the rotation of the pendulum and the amount it swings after the escapement clicks in both directions.

 

[Randy Beckett]

Even though the anchor pin is not straight, I would think it close enough that it could be adjusted to run.

The best I can tell the beat is pretty close.

I still think the fork is too high. Even though I haven't worked on this particular clock before, the small pin pallet clocks I have worked on ran best with a total pendulum swing of around 180 - 220 degrees. The best I can tell from your video, the escape wheel is releasing late in the swing, indicating a high fork. I may be wrong, but it wouldn't hurt to try lowering the fork 1/2 - 1 mm , reset the beat, and see what happens.


Edit- I was typing while Martin posted. He is correct, a clock that is properly serviced and set up square before attempting adjustments is much more likely to deliver consistent and successful results.

 

[Jmurrell]

Martin I have a question. Wouldn't the anchor pin be symmetrical in both directions if it is in time?

I have taken the movement apart and adjusted the anchor pin to that it is perpendicular to the pallet pins. I felt if I was looking to be symmetrical that I needed to center the anchor pin.

I have also taken the mainspring apart and lubed it with a good oil.

When I get the clock back together I will try and figure out how to do what Martin thinks I should to.

I an also lower the fork 1 mm to see if that helps.

John

 

[MartinM]

Not having current access to a 100-day anchor, I can't confirm that it's SUPPOSED to be symmetrical, in and of, itself.
Symmetrical, in the sense meant, means during operation and is usually accomplished by physically bending the pin to get it symmetrical from left to right while cycling.
You can most easily check this by watching the operation of the pin in relation to the suspension hanging bracket, checking for the same distance of travel, both ways within the window where the fork goes.
I think this clock has the pin mounted in a brass collar on the anchor arbor that can be adjusted on the arbor so you don't have to bend the pin and chance it (Or one of the pallet pins) breaking.
Start by putting power to the mainspring and then rocking the pin back and forth, adjusting it so that the limits of travel from center are equal. Hopefully, upon further analysis, you'll also find that the pin is the same amount before center, in each direction, when it transitions from being moved to snapping past center on its own.

Having said all that, be mindful that the adjustment of the locks and drops will effect this geometry, as well (Though not so much you'd probably notice, visually)
And... In the case of anchors with adjustable pallets... All bets are off. Though typically, if you know which pallet's been moved, you can set it on a flat surface and move the offending pallet enough to make the pin stand perpendicular to the surface when both pallet tips are resting on the surface.

 

[Jmurrell]

Hi I am back. Sorry for the delay in getting back to everyone but I have a friend who has come down with cancer and I have had to run him back and forth to the hospital.

At any rate I worked on the clock and I found a problem with the winding stem on the mainspring. It was very tight and I had to use pliers to wind and unwind the clock. This wouldn't have been a problem except that when I was taking the movement apart I first let the spring down or at least I thought I had, but with it being so tight to turn I thought the power was off the movement when it wasn't.

Needless to say when I took the movement apart it threw the gears all over the place. As a result of this the second wheel received a bent tooth that had to be straightened. Fortunately that was the only gear that was damaged.

I worked on the winding arbor for the mainspring so I could turn it by hand. Then I set the verge pin perpendicular to the pallet pins. I then put the movement back together and checked the symmetry of the anchor pin and the pendulum. I think the movement of both is the same right to left.

After doing that I started the clock and it has been running for just short of an hour. Hopefully it will continue to run but in any event I am posting a new video of the clock running since I did all of that.

John

[video=youtube_share;KTy9dJOy4M4]http://youtu.be/KTy9dJOy4M4[/video]

 

[Jmurrell]

I would like to say thanks to everyone for the help with this clock. It has been running for two days and it is doing great.

I think that centering everything on the clock and lowering the verge one full mm helped to get the clock up and running.

My friend that owns the clock purchased it for his mom when he got out of Viet Nam and it has never run for her until now. It always gives me a good feeling when I can get one of these special clocks running for someone, and I am sure they will be happy.

Thanks to all of you for helping to make that happen. This site is great and you do a great job.
John Murrell

 

[harold bain]

Good job, John. Just for the record, what did you discover had caused the wind arbor to be so tight?