Help Needed Sir John Bennett Chronograph.1884.

binman

Registered User
Nov 16, 2011
831
3
18
Chatham England
Country
Region
I have a problem hoping for some help please.This pocket watch was working six years ago I wound it up today and it’s not working, i am a bare novice at watches but have replaced springs on clocks very busy on clocks six years ago.
How do I start to disassemble this watch With out suddenly letting the spring down, I need to remove crown and stem.On the edge of the casing is a pin that can be depressed to adjust the hands and another feature with a slot which I do not know what this is for. The watch is generally in good condition hands and face of watch look like new.There are quite a few repairs marks on the inside of the rear cover a bit of history.SirJohn Bennett retired to St Lenards on sea where he died in 1897 leaving 10 children.half boys other girls.The sponcers letters AB I have been unable to attribute to anybod.I Have the NAWCC Bulletin supplement 20 Spring 1994 Watch Case Makers of England.Any help will be much appreciate.
 

gmorse

NAWCC Member
Jan 7, 2011
15,251
4,368
113
Breamore, Hampshire, UK
Country
Region
Hi Richard,

Some pictures of the movement and the hallmarks would be helpful. That hand setting pin is only held in the case when the movement is there, it will fall out when you remove the movement, but let's just see what you have before you get that far!

The 'AB' could be for Alfred Bedford, who was manager of Waltham's UK operation, or Arthur Baume, Swiss watch importer and UK agent for Longines, or indeed a few others; the hallmarks will tell all. The exact style of the letters and whether there's a full stop between them are important.

Regards,

Graham
 

binman

Registered User
Nov 16, 2011
831
3
18
Chatham England
Country
Region
Hi Richard,

Some pictures of the movement and the hallmarks would be helpful. That hand setting pin is only held in the case when the movement is there, it will fall out when you remove the movement, but let's just see what you have before you get that far!

The 'AB' could be for Alfred Bedford, who was manager of Waltham's UK operation, or Arthur Baume, Swiss watch importer and UK agent for Longines, or indeed a few others; the hallmarks will tell all. The exact style of the letters and whether there's a full stop between them are important.

Regards,

Graham

F8D35202-BA8E-4E0A-8813-2BE6BB9E42E7.jpeg F3EBAFDB-7B76-4696-BB8B-42DE20062295.jpeg 1FD73649-3562-40F0-890C-8C2AA8184D90.jpeg 39CD20A6-8755-4638-BFC7-CCC7DE5BF9E8.jpeg 27506483-2838-406B-A78B-43E481DB3C64.jpeg F657C493-0ACA-4ECE-9C2A-19B1043B9513.jpeg
 

gmorse

NAWCC Member
Jan 7, 2011
15,251
4,368
113
Breamore, Hampshire, UK
Country
Region
Hi Richard,
...how did you get the old tread up please I had a gut feeling I had posted this before.

I didn't do anything, it was just there!

This looks like Arthur Baume, because it certainly isn't a Waltham movement. The engraving on the cuvette appears to be Swiss work as does the movement, but the English hallmarks without any import marks are quite possible on a case imported between 1874 and 1887. English makers complained about imported cases having no indication that they were 'foreign' and the Merchandise Marks Act of 1887 addressed this situation.

The small slider at 2 o'clock is a balance brake which will stop the whole movement; this isn't a true chronograph which can be started, stopped and reset to zero without affecting the going train. Have you tried sliding it to its other position, that may be why the watch won't run!

Regards,

Graham
 

binman

Registered User
Nov 16, 2011
831
3
18
Chatham England
Country
Region
Hi Richard,


I didn't do anything, it was just there!

This looks like Arthur Baume, because it certainly isn't a Waltham movement. The engraving on the cuvette appears to be Swiss work as does the movement, but the English hallmarks without any import marks are quite possible on a case imported between 1874 and 1887. English makers complained about imported cases having no indication that they were 'foreign' and the Merchandise Marks Act of 1887 addressed this situation.

The small slider at 2 o'clock is a balance brake which will stop the whole movement; this isn't a true chronograph which can be started, stopped and reset to zero without affecting the going train. Have you tried sliding it to its other position, that may be why the watch won't run!

Regards,

Graham
Hi Graham I have operated this brake a lot of times to and fro but no luck in starting watch fully wound.
 

gmorse

NAWCC Member
Jan 7, 2011
15,251
4,368
113
Breamore, Hampshire, UK
Country
Region
Hi Richard,

Ah, I see. Will the balance swing at all with the slide in either position?

Regards,

Graham
 

John Matthews

NAWCC Member
Sep 22, 2015
4,454
2,540
113
France
Country
Region
English hallmarks without any import marks are quite possible on a case imported between 1874 and 1887

Graham - I think you are mistaken with regard to the first date.

Since watch cases began to be hallmarked, providing foreign cases were of the appropriate fineness, I do not believe there was any legislation to prevent them from being hallmarked. Hallmarking does not indicate British made, it indicates that the 'plate' is of British standard. Although it could be interpreted that in 1738 The Plate (Offences) Act (12 Geo.II c.261) imposed a fineness requirement on imported plate, it was not until 1842 (Customs Act: Imported Gold and Silver Items 5&6 Vict. c.47) that the customs laws were amended to make it compulsory for gold & silver imported into the United Kingdom, that was not battered (only fit for re-manufacture), to be of the legal standard and to be assayed & hallmarked. The act imposed no duty on the importer to conform to the regulations and they clearly didn't. By c.56 of the same Act, items proved to have been imported prior to 1800 and that did not meet the fineness standards, are exempted from assay and may be sold.

So my current understanding is that from 1842, all imported plate should have been to British standard & hallmarked - the problem was that the Customs did not recognise watch cases as 'plate' until the Goldsmiths' vs Wyatt ruling in 1905.

I think you obtained 1874 from Walter Prideaux of the Goldsmiths' Company when giving evidence to the select committee in 1878. In his evidence he reported that about that date foreign watch cases where being assayed with London hallmarks without the mark "F" to indicate they were of foreign origin (as introduced in 1876 Customs Act 39&40 Vict. c.35) . However 1874 has no legal significance.

The 1883 Revenue Act (46&47 Vict. c.55) required foreign plate to be place in a bonded warehouse. The Act placed the burden of hallmarking on the importer and stated that the items were only released for sale after hallmarking with the foreign mark 'F'. According to David Boettcher no cases marked with 'F' are known. Subsequently, the 1887 Merchandise Marks Act (50&51 Vict. c.28) specifically for watch cases, introduced marks distinct from those used on domestic cases, i.e. the gold items were not stamped with the Crown nor the silver items with the Lion Passant. In 1904 (Hall-Marking of Foreign Plate Act 4 Edw. VII c.6) a new set of foreign marks were introduced and applied to all imported, plate, thereby replacing the watch case only marks of 1887.

Following the appeal judgement of Goldsmiths' vs Wyatt in 1905, which highlighted the error made by the Customs in allowing watches to be imported without cases then being subject to assay, it was apparent that many foreign watches were held in stock, without case hallmarks. The 1907 Assay of Imported Watch Cases (existing Stocks Exemption) Act (7 Edw. VII c.8) was passed to decree that all cases imported prior to 1 June 1907, that had not been hallmarked, were exempt from a requirement to be retrospectively hallmarked. The Act received Royal Assent on 2 August, 1907.

Hence from 1 June, 1907 all imported watches had to have their cases hallmarked.

Given this case is 1884/85 if it was imported then it should have been processed through a bonded warehouse and have been stamped with 'F' - but as David states, no examples are known.

John
 

gmorse

NAWCC Member
Jan 7, 2011
15,251
4,368
113
Breamore, Hampshire, UK
Country
Region
Hi John,
I think you obtained 1874 from Walter Prideaux of the Goldsmiths' Company when giving evidence to the select committee in 1878. In his evidence he reported that about that date foreign watch cases where being assayed with London hallmarks without the mark "F" to indicate they were of foreign origin (as introduced in 1876 Customs Act 39&40 Vict. c.35) . However 1874 has no legal significance.

Yes, indirectly via David's website.

Regards,

Graham
 

binman

Registered User
Nov 16, 2011
831
3
18
Chatham England
Country
Region
Hi Richard,

Ah, I see. Will the balance swing at all with the slide in either position?

Regards,

Graham
Hi Graham. Operating the brake several times this morning got the second hand working three times for periods between 10 to 20 seconds approx.
 

binman

Registered User
Nov 16, 2011
831
3
18
Chatham England
Country
Region
It has no reference whatsoever to this thread, but my grandfather worked as a repairer for Mr Baume when he first came to London.
He was later fired for getting Mrs Baume's maid (my Grandmother) pregnant. She was fired as well.
Paul
It has no reference whatsoever to this thread, but my grandfather worked as a repairer for Mr Baume when he first came to London.
He was later fired for getting Mrs Baume's maid (my Grandmother) pregnant. She was fired as well.
Paul
It all had a happy ending did your grandparents have any other children?
 

binman

Registered User
Nov 16, 2011
831
3
18
Chatham England
Country
Region
Hi Richard,

Ah, I see. Will the balance swing at all with the slide in either position?

Regards,

Graham
Have tried the brake today and got the second hand moving twice for 10 and 20 seconds.
 

Daniel Reuben

NAWCC Member
Sep 23, 2015
42
27
18
I have a loose John Hargreaves center seconds movement. It looks quite similar. To answer your question, the only way to let down the spring barrel is to remove the movement from the case, then the hands and then the dial (it is probably pinned between the plates). The click is under the dial. However, mine has a beveled gear and thus I can't insert a bench key in which to hold and slowly release tension; it needs to be reinserted ito the case and the crown can be held to control spring release. Since I don't have the case......The other way is to remove the balance assembly and then carefully pull the fork and the escape wheel will spin (take hands off first). This is not as desirable especially if dirty as it is just mashing up a lot of dirt through the movement but sometimes you have to do what you have to do....
 

binman

Registered User
Nov 16, 2011
831
3
18
Chatham England
Country
Region
Hi Richard,

That sounds like dried up oil at the very least.

Regards,

Graham
Hi Graham. What do you think is the best approach for me? Also what movement has this watch got?
 

gmorse

NAWCC Member
Jan 7, 2011
15,251
4,368
113
Breamore, Hampshire, UK
Country
Region
Hi Richard,
How do I let the power down,I’m going to give it a go.

1FD73649_crop.jpg

Before you do anything else to the movement, it's best to remove the hands; if you're not sure how to do that safely, please come back and ask.

If you've done that, the red screw must be loosened but not removed completely, it holds down a lever which keeps the stem and crown in the watch so it should then just pull out with little or no resistance. Once you have the stem out, remove both the green screws completely, then remove the front bezel with its crystal. The movement can now be pressed out carefully from the back to the front.

With the movement out of the case, you should be able to see how the dial is attached. With this type of movement it will either be pinned through the dial posts or held with tiny screws in the edge of the plate.

Once the dial is off you should be able to just lift off the hour and minute wheels, and see whether there's a ratchet and click on the plate.

Let's see how far you get with this; if you get the dial off, a picture will be helpful.

Regards,

Graham
 

binman

Registered User
Nov 16, 2011
831
3
18
Chatham England
Country
Region
Hi Richard,


View attachment 749276

Before you do anything else to the movement, it's best to remove the hands; if you're not sure how to do that safely, please come back and ask.

If you've done that, the red screw must be loosened but not removed completely, it holds down a lever which keeps the stem and crown in the watch so it should then just pull out with little or no resistance. Once you have the stem out, remove both the green screws completely, then remove the front bezel with its crystal. The movement can now be pressed out carefully from the back to the front.

With the movement out of the case, you should be able to see how the dial is attached. With this type of movement it will either be pinned through the dial posts or held with tiny screws in the edge of the plate.

Once the dial is off you should be able to just lift off the hour and minute wheels, and see whether there's a ratchet and click on the plate.

Let's see how far you get with this; if you get the dial off, a picture will be helpful.

Regards,

Graham
Hi Graham thank you very much. Will make a start hopefully today or Saturday.
 

binman

Registered User
Nov 16, 2011
831
3
18
Chatham England
Country
Region
Hi Richard,

Keep us updated on your progress.

Regards,

Graham
Hi Graham.The dial was held on by three pins having removed dial I replaced the stem and crown gave it a little wiggle and the watch is now going I can see the clic as it isn’t covered up. I can either let the watch run or let the main spring down.When I turned the watch over the hour wheel( is that the large brass wheel fell of) I’m sure I put it back on correctly.What do you advise as the next step.If you tap or clic IMG-0496.MOV you should get a video of the watch running.
Regards
Richard.

310B0E7D-8A82-4003-A994-F2F94AD55824.jpeg
 

Attachments

  • IMG_0496.MOV
    15.7 MB

gmorse

NAWCC Member
Jan 7, 2011
15,251
4,368
113
Breamore, Hampshire, UK
Country
Region
Hi Richard,

The video shows that the amplitude is only about 60º, which is a long way from an acceptable value of at least 270º. This may simply be due to it needing a good clean, or it could be something more serious. In any event if you let it run down completely there could still be some power left, since the train is probably sticky, so best to be safe and let it down by holding the winding stem and disengaging the click.

To clean this properly you're going to have to dismantle it completely, taking as many pictures as you can! Only when it's clean can you assess wear or any other problems.

What cleaning materials and tools do you have available?

Regards,

Graham
 

binman

Registered User
Nov 16, 2011
831
3
18
Chatham England
Country
Region
Hi Richard,

The video shows that the amplitude is only about 60º, which is a long way from an acceptable value of at least 270º. This may simply be due to it needing a good clean, or it could be something more serious. In any event if you let it run down completely there could still be some power left, since the train is probably sticky, so best to be safe and let it down by holding the winding stem and disengaging the click.

To clean this properly you're going to have to dismantle it completely, taking as many pictures as you can! Only when it's clean can you assess wear or any other problems.

What cleaning materials and tools do you have available?

Regards,

Graham
Hi Graham. I have an ultra sonic cleaner which I used to clean clock parts.I think I have some cleaning fluid left,as for tools what would I need for Watches.I have trans oil for watches that about it.would I need to regrease the main spring barrel?
 

gmorse

NAWCC Member
Jan 7, 2011
15,251
4,368
113
Breamore, Hampshire, UK
Country
Region
Hi Richard,

You'll need screwdrivers small enough to fit the screws properly, decent tweezers which won't fire small parts into another dimension, some magnification and adequate lighting to see what you're doing. A clean stable surface to work on is another must-have.

Putting plain water in the ultrasonic and just putting the cleaning fluids in beakers or small glass jars sitting in the water will work well for watch parts. Glass is better than plastic because it transmits the sound energy better.

You will need some sort of grease for the mainspring and a light oil, preferably synthetic, such as Moebius 9020 for the rest.

Regards,

Graham
 

binman

Registered User
Nov 16, 2011
831
3
18
Chatham England
Country
Region
Hi Richard,

You'll need screwdrivers small enough to fit the screws properly, decent tweezers which won't fire small parts into another dimension, some magnification and adequate lighting to see what you're doing. A clean stable surface to work on is another must-have.

Putting plain water in the ultrasonic and just putting the cleaning fluids in beakers or small glass jars sitting in the water will work well for watch parts. Glass is better than plastic because it transmits the sound energy better.

You will need some sort of grease for the mainspring and a light oil, preferably synthetic, such as Moebius 9020 for the rest.

Regards,

Graham
Hi Graham. What will be the next step in taking apart.
Regards Richard.
 

gmorse

NAWCC Member
Jan 7, 2011
15,251
4,368
113
Breamore, Hampshire, UK
Country
Region
Hi Richard,

Once you've let down the mainspring completely, the next step is to remove the balance. Be careful when you take it out that the balance doesn't get caught under anything, as it's only attached to the balance cock by the balance spring, and it's easy to distort that if you just lift it away without checking. Don't worry if the balance just hangs freely by the spring when you lift the balance cock, just put it down gently on the bench and turn it over. You should be able to find some videos on YouTube of this dismantling process, search for 'Chronoglide', Kalle Slaap is very good and professional.

When the balance is off you can see the lever/escape cock which can come out. After that, it should just be a matter of removing screws and lifting off the top plate. I put everything in small compartmented boxes, keeping each part with its matching screw(s).

Regards,

Graham
 
Know Your NAWCC Forums Rules!
RULES & GUIDELINES

NAWCC Forums

Forum statistics

Threads
181,406
Messages
1,582,864
Members
54,805
Latest member
elenagilbertnr
Encyclopedia Pages
918
Total wiki contributions
3,131
Last edit
Swiss Fake by Kent
Top