Help in identification

Danny Fisher

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Aug 2, 2021
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I'm told this clock was in our family since before the Civil War. Is this Gothic style for the woodwork? Couldn't find similar fretwork online. Behind the faceplate is a 6-digit serial number, but we can't make out the text above it. Any help in identifying would be appreciated. Thanks in advance! 01_full.jpg 02_topRight.jpg 03_topLeft.jpg 04_faceTown.jpg 05_faceShip.jpg 07_faceBack.jpg 08_Tubes.jpg
 

Ticktocktime100

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Hi,

A spectacular clock, congratulations! It looks very much like a Herschede product to me, and there are a number of people on this board who are particularly knowledgeable regarding this manufacturer and who will hopefully be along to identify the model and year of manufacture. Given that it dates to around 1910, give or take a few years, the Civil War story can be ruled out. Others will know more about the case, it is certainly less common. It is possibly a commission by the original owner, as I believe Herschede did sometimes make custom built cases but I may be wrong.

Hope others can say more!

Regards.
 
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JTD

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I agree that this clock was certainly not around during the civil war. The gothic style of the case would be suited to the date of around 1900-10, as ticktocktime suggests.

A very good clock and a nice family heirloom, even if it's not quite as old as some in the family have suggested.

but we can't make out the text above it
I am wondering if that word might read GERMANY, but it is not very clear when I enlarge your picture, so it's just a suggestion.

JTD
 
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Danny Fisher

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Aug 2, 2021
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Hi,

A spectacular clock, congratulations! It looks very much like a Herschede product to me, and there are a number of people on this board who are particularly knowledgeable regarding this manufacturer and who will hopefully be along to identify the model and year of manufacture. Given that it dates to around 1910, give or take a few years, the Civil War story can be ruled out. Others will know more about the case, it is certainly less common. It is possibly a commission by the original owner, as I believe Herschede did sometimes make custom built cases but I may be wrong.

Hope others can say more!

Regards.
Thank you very much, Ticktocktime and JTD! I appreciate your expertise!
 

Dwight David

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Aug 13, 2020
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The Patent Date on the striking Hammer I believe is referring to Patent #685045 for hammer strikers invented by Charles A. Jacques the Assignor for Bawo & Dotter Company. The Patent was granted in 1901 so the clock is more than likely from the early 1900's. Bawo & Dotter were in business making Hall Clocks from the 1860's until going out of business in 1932 under the name Guerin-Pouyat-Elite Ltd.. Feel free to send photographs and questions to our Research Request email on our website for this and future questions. We answer questions for NAWCC Members for free. Stay safe.
 
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Danny Fisher

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Aug 2, 2021
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The Patent Date on the striking Hammer I believe is referring to Patent #685045 for hammer strikers invented by Charles A. Jacques the Assignor for Bawo & Dotter Company. The Patent was granted in 1901 so the clock is more than likely from the early 1900's. Bawo & Dotter were in business making Hall Clocks from the 1860's until going out of business in 1932 under the name Guerin-Pouyat-Elite Ltd.. Feel free to send photographs and questions to our Research Request email on our website for this and future questions. We answer questions for NAWCC Members for free. Stay safe.
Thank you very much for the info and the suggestion of contacting the Research Request people, Dwight. Much appreciated!
 

Isaac

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A very lovely clock.

Yes, it is a movement by Mathias Bauerle and was sold underneath the "Elite" line of hall clocks offered by Bawo & Dotter. During the early 1900s, there were different grades of movements offered (all by MB), including "Monastery", "Peerless", and "Elite". All grades are extremely well constructed clocks and will continue to last with the proper maintenance and care. Monastery hall clocks tend to have less ornate cases (and simpler chiming movements) than their Elite counterparts.

A classic signature of some MB movements is the intricate designs on the movement plates. A lot of MB movements also had the 2 screw holes in the rear plate, where a movement identification tag would have been sometimes attached.

Isaac
 
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chimeclockfan

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We are looking at an ELITE PAA movement made anywhere between 1904-1914, housed inside a Gothic revival case made by some outlet.
I could not find this case in the B&D Elite catalog copies I have on hand. B&D did not make their own cases and usually farmed this task out to
other companies including Herschede and R. J. Horner. Unless it appeared in their respective catalogs, it is sometimes impossible to
tell which exact company made which exact case.

Movement was made by Mathias Bäuerle of St. Georgen, Germany for B&D in New York.
Tubular bells made by R. H. Mayland's company in New York.
B&D's clock department was headed by Charles A. Jacques who revolutionized chime clock production in the United States throughout the 1890s-1910's. From improvising the traditional 9 tube hall clock to introducing smaller, lower-cost clocks more approachable to working-class households, Charles Jacques pretty much did it all.

Customary cases from this period are scarce, however production models offered by some outlets were made in small numbers
which can give the impression of a one-off piece. The curved shape of the Gothic arch and the presence of floral imagery is typical of a
Gothic Revival piece from the early 20th century. Herschede, Colonial, B&D, Waltham all had some variation of the same styling.

Movement PAA.JPG

Tubular bells had not even been devised for use in clock chimes until 1884 when John Harrington introduced his patented tubular bells.
More about the history of tubular bells: Tubular tower bells

The aforementioned Elite patent:

Herschede used Elite movements for a short period around 1910 however their CROWN trademark would be present on dial or tubular bells.
Your movement was once signed 'ELITE' PAA - GERMANY however this has all been removed by some unscrupulous vandal.

Plays Westminster or Chime on Eight Bells, the latter of which is more concisely noted in the B&D catalog:

EliteWhittington.jpg

Owing to difficulties during the first world war, B&D was liquidated in 1915 and its clock department was taken up by Geo. Borgfeldt & Co.
where Jacques was employed until his retirement in late 1919. Jacques died in 1920 but clocks bearing his name were made up to 1932.
 

Danny Fisher

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Aug 2, 2021
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Thank you so much to Isaac and ChimeClockFan! I really appreciate your comprehensive and knowledgeable answers. I've included a couple of updated photos.

The missing plaque above the "6" (holes are visible where plaque was attached..."1473018" would've been covered by the plaque) may have held a plate with "Bawo & Dotter," as seen in the reference photo. The floral designs in the spandrels, and incised between the numbers, matches my clock, too.

Mathias Baüerle seems to be the consensus on the maker. Thank you! I've attached the clearest photo I could get of the name on the back of the plate...there's an umlaut, so maybe that was "Baüerle" at one point? Or maybe "ELITE PAA - GERMANY" as ChimeClockFan pointed out? I still can't make it out. (Is that a "crown" symbol at the beginning?) And why would anyone purposely scratch/deface the name? That would only seem to lessen the value.

Thank you all again!

06_faceMoon.jpg Bawo&DotterFace_reference.png 06_behindMissingPlate.jpg Bawo&Dotter_detail_reference.png 07_faceBack6.jpg
 
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chimeclockfan

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The dial plaque would read out 'Bawo & Dotter - Patentees & Makers' or the name of a retail company that sold the complete clock.
Many names have been found on the plaques including - but not limited to - Tobey Chicago, Tiffany & Co., and Hoover & Smith.

Movement was made by Mathias Bäuerle GmbH, St. Georgen (Germany) for Bawo & Dotter in New York as I just described above.
B&D would have assembled clocks using cases, movements, tube bells made by suppliers, it's as simple as that.

It is important to get the details straight as there's so much misinformation out there. Still get a kick out of that one guy who thought
his 1910's Monastery brand hall clock was made in an ancient German monastery. Hah.
 
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Isaac

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Most likely it was stamped something along the lines of "M. Bäuerle" originally.

Sometimes there would be a badge attached (as aforementioned) that contains identification information. Here are examples of 2 of my "Peerless" grade chiming clocks. Both are of the same quality construction and design, but one has very nice finishing on the plates. I also have a lantern clock by Mathias Bauerle, also with the Peerless stamp (but no B&D markings).

I will add that your clock is very likely due for a service (even if it runs fine). Dirt and grime accumulate in the pivot holes and accelerate wear significantly. Find a reputable clock repairman near you (the NAWCC can help with this) to take a look at your fine clock.

Isaac

NameplateH12.PNG NameplateHH.PNG
 
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Danny Fisher

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The dial plaque would read out 'Bawo & Dotter - Patentees & Makers' or the name of a retail company that sold the complete clock.
Many names have been found on the plaques including - but not limited to - Tobey Chicago, Tiffany & Co., and Hoover & Smith.

Movement was made by Mathias Bäuerle GmbH, St. Georgen (Germany) for Bawo & Dotter in New York as I just described above.
B&D would have assembled clocks using cases, movements, tube bells made by suppliers, it's as simple as that.

It is important to get the details straight as there's so much misinformation out there. Still get a kick out of that one guy who thought
his 1910's Monastery brand hall clock was made in an ancient German monastery. Hah.
Good point about there being different names on the dial plaque, not just B&D. Thank you, ChimeClockFan!
 

Danny Fisher

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Aug 2, 2021
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Most likely it was stamped something along the lines of "M. Bäuerle" originally.

Sometimes there would be a badge attached (as aforementioned) that contains identification information. Here are examples of 2 of my "Peerless" grade chiming clocks. Both are of the same quality construction and design, but one has very nice finishing on the plates. I also have a lantern clock by Mathias Bauerle, also with the Peerless stamp (but no B&D markings).

I will add that your clock is very likely due for a service (even if it runs fine). Dirt and grime accumulate in the pivot holes and accelerate wear significantly. Find a reputable clock repairman near you (the NAWCC can help with this) to take a look at your fine clock.

Isaac

View attachment 666104 View attachment 666105
Thank you for the badge photos! That explains the two holes near the indecipherable text above the serial number (photo attached). And "M. Baüerle" for the inscription makes perfect sense. I wonder if there is text beneath most badges on clocks? Yes, I do need to find a good clock repairman. One of the three weights had to be taken down because the cable was fraying. I'm so glad I found this group...I'll definitely check in with the NAWCC for a reputable repairman. Thank you, Isaac!

07_faceBack2.jpg
 

Isaac

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As far as I know, M.B. was the only company that used badges on the rear plate of their movements that were sold to B&D to be cased. Good call on removing the weight!
 
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new2clocks

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My eyes could be deceiving me (they often do :) ), but when I enlarge the last picture provided of the backplate, there appears to be a faint trademark above the '7' in the serial number and the scratched out / written over area.

And why would anyone purposely scratch/deface the name?
We have seen this before. The answer is ... we really don't know why. We can provide reasonable possibilities, but we don't know for sure.

Regards.
 
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Isaac

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My eyes could be deceiving me (they often do :) ), but when I enlarge the last picture provided of the backplate, there appears to be a faint trademark above the '7' in the serial number and the scratched out / written over area.
My eyes make out what looks like 4 numbers, 7031. Could be a repair mark added later on (perhaps by the same person who obliterated the original stamp on the movement). Or my eyes could be deceiving me too. If there are numbers or a logo/trademark, someone had a very light touch.
 
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