Help ID'g Pocket Watch/No Maker Apparent

[Girl59]

Hello, all. I was gifted a lovely antique pocket watch that has no obvious maker-identification on the movement. The movement has a serial number, but how to use it if manufacturer unknown? The 14K (double) hunter case also has a serial number but no manufacturer. Have consulted a local watchmaker and corresponded with another online; the latter guessed the piece to be late 19th- to early 20th-century and said perhaps "generic Swiss?" My impression is nothing particularly special about the movement. In any case (a little pocket watch humor!), some insight so appreciated. In general, inheriting this piece has stimulated my interest in mechanical watches...and in time itself. This from someone who almost flunked physics. Thanks so much.

 

[Dr. Jon]

Welcome to our forum!

Yours is a good watch. It might be IWC. International Watch Company. It is not an exact match to the examples in my book. HOwever it it is an IWC its serial number dates it to 1910 and other features match that number.

It has what we call a fancy dial. The case may have been made in America. Unmarked watches like yours were often made to order.

 

[Girl59]

Welcome to our forum!

Yours is a good watch. It might be IWC. International Watch Company. It is not an exact match to the examples in my book. HOwever it it is an IWC its serial number dates it to 1910 and other features match that number.

It has what we call a fancy dial. The case may have been made in America. Unmarked watches like yours were often made to order.

Thank you so much, Dr. Jon! This has been a mystery to me for weeks. Will look at some IWC information. Can I find this on Pocket Watch Database?

"Made to order" never occurred to me...Didn't know this was done. My local watchmaker was dismissive and almost rude when I asked for his help, and I assumed it didn't have much value (though I don't plan to sell it and am not concerned with value now).

Is the piece almost certainly considered a ladies' pocket watch, since the dial is fancy? Forgot to mention that it has a lovely old monogram, and (I think unfortunately) a much more recent -- and not nearly as nicely done -- inscription on other side from the giver to my mother. The giver bought the watch in New York City about 20 years ago, and that's all I know.

Another question: Why does the movement look less "busy" than many I've seen? Is the matte, silverish-white part covering some of the plates (is this what they're called)?

The piece is so lovely, and the case is 14K, and I'm a little afraid to carry it every day. Also, not nearly as quick and easy to use as an open-face. I am middle-aged (a little past that, actuarially) and feel now that keeping some of my treasures locked in a drawer is not the way to live...Might as well enjoy them. Maybe display this piece on my desk at home with a stand?

Thank you again, Dr. Jon. I never would have known how to research this without the folks here. I'll be back with other questions!

 

[Girl59]

Thank you so much, Dr. Jon! This has been a mystery to me for weeks. Will look at some IWC information. Can I find this on Pocket Watch Database?

Is this almost certainly considered a ladies' pocket watch? Forgot to mention that it has a lovely old monogram, and (I think unfortunately) a much more recent -- and not nearly as nicely done -- inscription on other side from the giver to my mother. The giver bought the watch in New York City about 20 years ago, and that's all I know. I don't plan to sell it so am not concerned with its value now...Just curious about it.

Another question: Why does the movement look less "busy" than many I've seen? Is the matte, silverish-white part covering some of the plates (is this what they're called)?

The piece is so lovely, and the case is 14K, and I'm a little afraid to carry it every day. Also, not nearly as quick and easy to use as an open-face.

Thank you again, Dr. Jon. I never would have known how to research this without the folks here. I'll be back with other questions!

Dr. Jon...I knew I'd forget something. Any way to tell how many jewels the piece has? All I know so far is that the jewels reduce friction and help the watch run smoothly. Again, not really interested in monetary value...Just want to be able to write down as detailed a description for my family members as I can.

 

[Rick Hufnagel]

Here is an incredible resource for IWC

IWC Pocket Watch | The Internet Source about Pocket Watches by International Watch Co., Schaffhausen, Switzerland

Vintage pocket watches by IWC International Watch Co. Schaffhausen. Covers all historic models and includes early catalogs.

www.iwcpocketwatch.com

Your watch looks to be 16 or 17 jewels.

 

[Girl59]

Here is an incredible resource for IWC

IWC Pocket Watch | The Internet Source about Pocket Watches by International Watch Co., Schaffhausen, Switzerland

Vintage pocket watches by IWC International Watch Co. Schaffhausen. Covers all historic models and includes early catalogs.

www.iwcpocketwatch.com

Your watch looks to be 16 or 17 jewels.

Thank you, Rick. This is so interesting. There's nothing I love better than being on the hunt for info/clues. I'm an active amateur genealogist, so I'm used to it!

 

[Rick Hufnagel]

Good luck and enjoy your watch!

 

[Dr. Jon]

Thanks for your kind words.

The decoration pattern is called damaskeening. It is most used on American made watches but some Swiss makers used it in watches destined for the US market. The jewel count looks to be 17. The center jewel is set in a gold ring called a chaton. Godl with a large setting is high grade indicator.

The movement side of a watch can vary in the shape of the plates. This is why the identification is still uncertain. I classify the movement as a 1/2 plate.

Fancy dials are more often in ladies watches but not always. There have been a lot of very ornate and fancy dials on men's watches. YUor dial looks a lot like those made in the US by the O'Hara dial company and may be by them.

The US retail watch business was very different from today when your watch was bought. Customers could pick the movement dial hands and case, often from display cases in the shop. Alternatively, the watch could be order part by part from catalogs and assembled in the store. This is why movements sold in the US were so highly decorated.

From what little I can see of the case I think it is hand engraved. Its worth taking a good look at it under high magnification. Many of these have amazing detail.

As to wear, like any gold item, discretion is smart but on a chain on your neck on a nice occasion why not wear it?

I collect small watches like yuors with huhg grade movements. They are unusual to rare since most were very cheap just to fill fancy cases. Many belonged to women who I have learned about. Most who had watches with good movements were very interesting and very good reason to know teh time accurately.

 

[Girl59]

Thanks for your kind words.

The decoration pattern is called damaskeening. It is most used on American made watches but some Swiss makers used it in watches destined for the US market. The jewel count looks to be 17. The center jewel is set in a gold ring called a chaton. Godl with a large setting is high grade indicator.

The movement side of a watch can vary in the shape of the plates. This is why the identification is still uncertain. I classify the movement as a 1/2 plate.

Fancy dials are more often in ladies watches but not always. There have been a lot of very ornate and fancy dials on men's watches. YUor dial looks a lot like those made in the US by the O'Hara dial company and may be by them.

The US retail watch business was very different from today when your watch was bought. Customers could pick the movement dial hands and case, often from display cases in the shop. Alternatively, the watch could be order part by part from catalogs and assembled in the store. This is why movements sold in the US were so highly decorated.

From what little I can see of the case I think it is hand engraved. Its worth taking a good look at it under high magnification. Many of these have amazing detail.

As to wear, like any gold item, discretion is smart but on a chain on your neck on a nice occasion why not wear it?

I collect small watches like yuors with huhg grade movements. They are unusual to rare since most were very cheap just to fill fancy cases. Many belonged to women who I have learned about. Most who had watches with good movements were very interesting and very good reason to know teh time accurately.

Dr. Jon, Thanks again for such wonderful info. I am way ahead of where I started this morning. I'd never known that, years ago, people could choose their pocket watch elements "a la carte" and then have the piece put together. The case is absolutely gorgeous, and heavy...Will look at carving more closely. And it's good to know a possible maker of the dial.

Re: the movement, I sent a picture to Mr. Friedberg of the AWC site suggested by Rick, above...He replied quickly and briefly saying the movement is NOT by the International Watch Company. Good to know...I will keep researching and am hoping for additional insights by members here.

Your collection of small watches sounds fascinating. Had never thought of it before, but of course some people with pocket watches absolutely needed to know the exact time for a very good reason. Just read the other day about the imperative of trains running on time -- and watches to be synchronized -- to avoid collisions, injuries, fatalities. Now if I just understood time itself better...I want to be informed when I meet Albert Einstein in the Hereafter LOL! Thanks again, Dr. Jon.

 

[sternerp]

It seems to me more like an early Longines caliber. Maybe Eri231 gives the exact answer ;-)

 

[Dr. Jon]

I too await Enrico's reply but I think Longines is a good possibility.
1) Their 11.62 cal looks a lot like this but the cut in the book is too small to be more certain
2) It features a screwed in center ruby and is listed a 16 jewels (The 17th is not readily visible and many Swiss watches do not use it)
3) The damaskeeing looks like theirs
4) They had strong representation in the US

They introduced this movement in 1893.

 

[Girl59]

It seems to me more like an early Longines caliber. Maybe Eri231 gives the exact answer ;-)

I too await Ernrico's reply but I think Longines is a good possibility.
1) Their 11.62 cal looks a lot like this but the cut in the book is too small to be more certain
2) It features a screwed in center ruby and is listed a 16 jewels (The 17th is not readily visible and many Swiss watches do not use it)
3) The damaskeeing looks like theirs
4) They had strong representation in the US

They introduced this movement in 1893.

Wow, folks. So appreciate this information. I didn't know how to take Mr. Friedberg's emphatic response that the piece is NOT an IWC watch...Thought perhaps he meant the movement was unimpressive/so generic as to be indistinguishable. Maybe he just knew he was talking to someone with zero knowledge. Longines is a Swiss watch? Will await Enrico's response. Thank you again, so much. Also, just posted in the American Pocketwatch forum about my first purchase...a modest one.

 

[Rick Hufnagel]

Longines was my first thought as well, but haven't been able to match it up.

 

[Dr. Jon]

I made the possible match from "At the Heart of an Industrial Vocation" a large book published with subsidy by Longines. The title is poor translation of the French title. The book covers every Longines movement until the most recent. I had been put off this identification by tehor usual method of supporting the upper lever pivot. On every movement but this one the support cock comes in from teh edge but in this is seems to be a bridge straddling the escapement line.

As I wrote the picture is small and there are some small differences in the escape wheel support cock.

Like the IWC candidate the serial number is consistent with date for the movement.

 

[Girl59]

I made the possible match from "At the Heart of an Industrial Vocation" a large book published with subsidy by Longines. The title is poor translation of the French title. The book covers every Longines movement until the most recent. I had been put off this identification by tehor usual method of supporting the upper lever pivot. On every movement but this one the support cock comes in from teh edge but in this is seems to be a bridge straddling the escapement line.

As I wrote the picture is small and there are some small differences in the escape wheel support cock.

Like the IWC candidate the serial number is consistent with date for the movement.

Dr. Jon, thank you again. I'm attempting to translate your comments LOL...I know others here are familiar with these terms. I am just starting to study mechanical watch parts. I think you're saying the movement on this watch is very similar to some Longines pieces/models pictured in a poor English version of an authoritative French title? Will keep watching this thread for further insight from you and from Enrico. By the way, was reading an old thread last night about RR pocket watches, and Swiss brands vs. American for use by manually laboring employees. Was impressed by your knowledge and points and want to learn more about the history and business of pocket-watch making.