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DMOORE36

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richiec

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Definitely different looking and really nice. Unusual with the pins holding everything. Don't know if there are any markings under the dial.
 

DMOORE36

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Definitely different looking and really nice. Unusual with the pins holding everything. Don't know if there are any markings under the dial.
The only markings i could find are in the picture i tried to zoom in on.
 

agemo

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Ethan Lipsig

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DMoore36, you have a very interesting movement, a two-train repeater with another "complication.".

"Two-train" means that the watch has two mainsprings, not the usual one mainspring. They are under the wheels with the inside ratchet clicks. Either (a) both mainsprings will wind when you wind the crown in the wind direction, or (b) one will wind when you wind the crown clockwise, and the other will wind when you wind the crown counterclockwise. Two-train watches are very uncommon. They are found in watches that need a second mainspring to power another complication, more about which in a minute.

"Repeater" means that the watch rings out the time when you push a button or slide a slide-piece. You can see the repeater gongs, the wire hoops that circle the movement. I cannot tell what kind of repeater you have. The most common kinds are quarter repeaters, which ring the hour and quarter-hour, and the minute repeater, which also rings out the minutes. Repeaters are uncommon.

Sadly, your movement appears to have been recased. I see no sign of any buttons or slides on the rim to activate the repeat works. This very expensive movement probably was originally cased in an 18k case that long ago was scrapped for its gold value.

A moment ago, I said that the movement has an extra mainspring to power a complication. More knowledgeable people may be able to identify that complication from the design of the movement, but I cannot. It might make the repeater a "trip" repeater, one in which the repeat function is powered by a mainspring rather than by a spring that is wound by sliding a slide-piece or pushing a button. Trip repeaters are quite uncommon and valuable. The second main spring might power an independent sweep second hand stopwatch feature, i.e., a chronograph. The second main spring might power a sonnerie mechanism that rings out the time without have to slide a slide-piece or push a button, but I don't see any of the switches such a watch normally has, such as one to turn the sonnerie on and off.

I hope you will consider having the watch restored, but it will be expensive. Just a routine servicing of a watch like this could cost $1-2 thousand. If the movement has issue, the cost could double. The chances of finding a case that fits the watch and that has the right buttons or levers is just about zero. If you could find one, an 18k case probably would cost $1500-$3000. You could have a case made for the watch, but that likely would cost around $5000. So, restoration probably would cost $6,000-$10,000. The restored watch, however, would not have its original case, a negative for any serious collector that would depress its value. Still, your restored watch could be worth more than $10,000.
 

gmorse

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Hi DMoore36,

I think Ethan is correct, I believe this is a trip repeater. Unlike most repeaters, in which the power to drive the repeating train comes from the plunger or slide initiating it, this has a second barrel for the repeater which is wound simultaneously with the time barrel by the winding crown.This means that the repeat can be initiated by a small lever or pusher without the effort of winding the spring first. A member here, Doug Shuman, (dshumans), is an expert in these complications and can probably tell you more about yours.

Regards,

Graham
 
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Philip Poniz

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You could have a case made for the watch, but that likely would cost around $5000. So, restoration probably would cost $6,000-$10,000.
Ethan,

Let me know where you can find someone to make a case for this movement for $5000. I will employ him/her instantaneously. The movement needs a heavy hunter case with a trip bolt and a small silent/strike bolt, plus a grande/petite sonnerie bolt, a pendant, inner slides, a lift spring (possibly two), a catch spring, etc. European Watch & Casemakers, Ltd, rather experienced in casemaking, would charge $15,000-20,000. The gold will be about $4000 to start with. There will be some returns after machining, but it amounts to about 50%, from experience. So, the gold is around $3000. There is no way that any experienced casemaker would do it for $2000 labor today. $5000 was the cost in the 1980’s, maybe 1990’s.

Your movement restoration estimate is correct. It is a clockwatch, (grande et petite sonnerie) but it is based on a quarter repeater. It does not seem to need much, except cleaning. EWC charges around $2000 for cleaning such a watch. They come in pretty regularly, a few every year.

Philip
 

Ethan Lipsig

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Philip, I never have had a case made, but I recently asked Seth Kennedy in the UK roughly what it would cost to have him make an 18k case for an orphan 12-size movement. He said it would cost around £3500 including the materials. I rounded this up to $5000 in my rough estimate of restoration costs. That estimate likely is on the low side because this sonnerie movement is larger and more complex. Do you think it would be worth the high cost of restoration, i.e., be worth more net of restoration costs, than it is now?

If you are interested in exploring having Seth make cases, his email is seth@sethkennedy.co.uk.
 
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gmorse

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Hi Philip,

Thanks for clarifying the nature of this piece and correcting my mis-diagnosis, your posts are always an education in this esoteric field!

I can certainly endorse Ethan's remarks about Seth's work, I have seen some of his pieces and he's currently engaged with developing his expertise in the intricacies of the rose engine.

Regards,

Graham
 
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agemo

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Hi,
I may be wrong, but this movement is not a repetition "grand sonnerie" by chance ? :emoji_thinking:
These two barrels intrigue me !

Amicalement GG
 
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Dr. Jon

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To get an ieda of what is involved check out Steffan Pahlow's fiteen part Youtube on making a case for a complicated watch. It differs from this example but it has many of the same issues. The videos runa about 12 hours in all. Assuming this is 1/10 of the actual time we get about 120 hours. I expect A good EU maker gets abiout 250 Euro per hour. Excluding material I get 30,000 Euro if the makers gets paid for all teh time spent. Most of thse peopel I know charge for about half of this so 15,000 Euro plus material might come in at a low end.
 
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shinytickythings

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Fascinating thread.
Thanks DMOORE36!

Is this winding click arrangement an Audemars patent?
Or, why do I see these attributed to Audemars so often?

regards,
Steve
 

Philip Poniz

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No but it is usually in watches from Le Brassus. I saw one example in a very limited edition Audemars Piguet and Louis Elisee Piguet used it.

Perhaps Phil will elucidate further.
It will be the subject of one of my articles in Horological Fact or Fiction in 2022. The issue is analogous to the one in my September 2021 article there.
 

DMOORE36

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Apr 30, 2021
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Thank all of you for the help like i said i am very new to this. Any suggestions on what i should do with it or what its worth i dont think I would have the funds to have it fixed correctly and would love to see it back to its original glory thanks.
 

Ethan Lipsig

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Dmoore36, I think you have only two choices if you cannot afford to undertake restoration, keep the movement as is, or sell it. If I were in you shoes, I'd sell it, but first I would pay to have an expert (e.g., Doug Shuman or Philip Poniz, if they would do it) cursorily examine the movement to see if it is complete and in good running order, and confirm that it is a sonnerie. That information almost certainly would increase the sales price by more than the cost of a cursory examination. Of course, there is a downside to seeking that information. If you find out that the watch is missing parts or isn't in good running order and you are candid about it, the watch may sell for less than it would if you sold it as is with no representation about completeness or running order, plus you would have had to pay to have the watch examined.
 
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DMOORE36

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Apr 30, 2021
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Dmoore36, I think you have only two choices if you cannot afford to undertake restoration, keep the movement as is, or sell it. If I were in you shoes, I'd sell it, but first I would pay to have an expert (e.g., Doug Shuman or Philip Poniz, if they would do it) cursorily examine the movement to see if it is complete and in good running order, and confirm that it is a sonnerie. That information almost certainly would increase the sales price by more than the cost of a cursory examination. Of course, there is a downside to seeking that information. If you find out that the watch is missing parts or isn't in good running order and you are candid about it, the watch may sell for less than it would if you sold it as is with no representation about completeness or running order, plus you would have had to pay to have the watch examined.
Got ya i definitely would want to to be upfront as possible because unfortunately me and my family could use the money more than the watch. I have two daughters and with covid i haven't been able to work as much between staying home with them im just now starting to get back on my feet.
 

Philip Poniz

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Feb 22, 2012
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Thank all of you for the help like i said i am very new to this. Any suggestions on what i should do with it or what its worth i dont think I would have the funds to have it fixed correctly and would love to see it back to its original glory thanks.
You have a nice movement circa 1865. Some say that Piguet Freres made the blank. Maybe they did, but there is no evidence to support it. Back then, the finished movement with a dial and hands, but without a case, cost 785CHF, twice what a finished minute repeater movement cost. I have seen quite a few of them retailed by Jurgensen, Nardin, unsigned, and others. The ones that are in still existing ledgers were bought from negociants, who sold them finished. So, we do not know who made the blank.
Today, those movements are bought often by people who case them in custom-made inexpensive wristwatch cases. I even know of one that they tried to sell as a Patek Philippe grande et petite sonnerie. I think a dealer from Russia. To build a well-made custom-made case will not pay off. The last one we made was over a decade ago, and it was for a really important watch that eventually sold for a lot of money.
But just in case, here you have how such a case should look like.
NHT SON QART PF MBY 1865 (3).jpg NHT SON QART PF MBY 1865 (2).jpg NHT SON QART PF MBY 1865 (1).jpg

Good luck.
 

DMOORE36

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Apr 30, 2021
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You have a nice movement circa 1865. Some say that Piguet Freres made the blank. Maybe they did, but there is no evidence to support it. Back then, the finished movement with a dial and hands, but without a case, cost 785CHF, twice what a finished minute repeater movement cost. I have seen quite a few of them retailed by Jurgensen, Nardin, unsigned, and others. The ones that are in still existing ledgers were bought from negociants, who sold them finished. So, we do not know who made the blank.
Today, the movements are bought often by people who case them in custom-made inexpensive wristwatch cases. I even know of one that they tried to sell as a Patek Philippe grande et petite sonnerie. I think a dealer from Russia. To build a well-made custom-made case will not pay off. The last one we made was over a decade ago, and it was for a really important watch that eventually sold for a lot of money.
But just in case, here you have how such a case should look like.
View attachment 653143 View attachment 653144 View attachment 653145

Good luck.
Thank you very much again.
 

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