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Help identifying watch(es) 7/10

DanielR

Registered User
Jan 24, 2021
12
0
1
38
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Hello,
I'm looking for assistance in finding information about a small collection of pocket watches.
(please can you guys here help, there are 9 English watches and 1 American. (I've made (or will make) a thread for each watch.)
Any information on the watch (good/not good/year/place of manufacture would be greatly received (I know nothing about watches, -but would like to know about these particular ones)
If there is anything you feel is missing from the photos, (or want better/different pictures to help identify these please let me know.
(all the watches work.)

this is number 7 of a collection (all the rest are in the English watch forum)
the watch is a waltham. serial number 4858353 (dates to 1890's?)
cased in an English case (denison moon) (serial 178046)

P1000407.JPG P1000408.JPG P1000409.JPG P1000410.JPG P1000412.JPG P1000413.JPG P1000414.JPG P1000415.JPG
 

viclip

NAWCC Member
Jul 20, 2018
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518
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The link below will disclose info about this watch's movement:

Waltham Watch

The case is English but made by a company founded by the same American who was one of the principals behind the Waltham Watch company, namely Aaron L. Dennison. After a falling out with others involved in the Waltham Watch company, he moved to England & got into case making.
 
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topspin

Registered User
Dec 14, 2014
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I believe the database is wrong here (because the historical record is wrong.)
From the plate layout, I'd say this more closely resembles a model 1890, not an 1883 Broadway.
Either that, or we're misreading the serial number.

Looking it up in the other lookup, we see that this one slightly pre-dates the first 1890 officially recorded. http://nawccinfo.nawcc.org/LookupSN.php

To test this hypothesis - What is the outer diameter of the watch (in mm)?
 

viclip

NAWCC Member
Jul 20, 2018
732
518
93
Country
I believe the database is wrong here (because the historical record is wrong.)
From the plate layout, I'd say this more closely resembles a model 1890, not an 1883 Broadway.
Either that, or we're misreading the serial number.

Looking it up in the other lookup, we see that this one slightly pre-dates the first 1890 officially recorded. http://nawccinfo.nawcc.org/LookupSN.php

To test this hypothesis - What is the outer diameter of the watch (in mm)?
Good eye!

I believe that DanielR missed the "1" at the start of the movement's SN such that the correct SN is 14858353. That SN returns as follows:

Waltham Watch_
 

topspin

Registered User
Dec 14, 2014
1,495
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Region
Sorted. Good spot.

So. We have - a 7-jewel 6-size movement, made at Waltham, Mass. By one estimate roughly a million were made of this variation.

The movement is a hunter configuration (designed to wind at 3) however with the second hand absent and a suitable dial, we see it fits nicely into an openface case (winds at 12.) This common arrangement may have been done for convenience (someone using up surplus openface cases & hunter movements), or some customers may have even preferred the look.
 

DanielR

Registered User
Jan 24, 2021
12
0
1
38
Country
Hello,
To confirm - yes the 1 is missing, serial (on the movement) is 14858353
The case, edge to edge measures 40mm

Closer inspection reveals...
the face fits exactly in the case (to the edges)
the minute hand appears to bend downwards - I'm not sure if this is damage, or a modification to make it fit inside the case (if the case is not original)
(I can't see it being a modification as there is plenty of space in front of the watchglass.)

More details on the case (that I can't quite get to focus on camera.)
the back has two opening segments.
the first opening segment is for the moon case.
so it says MOON
trade mark, (has the sun/moon/star symbol)
A.L.D
Dennison Watch case Co
Serial number 178046
then "American Waltham watch company" is written around a picture of a fish with a W in the middle.
If I was holding the watch winder towards me, face down, in the lower left side of the 1st lid is some writing that is scratched onto the case (difficult to read even with a magnifying glass)
36329
4014M
55030M
2384h
9661m

A little further around the case is written, <20/6/47 then something I can't make out, maybe CR
This list of numbers is tiny... (about the size of the eye on the fish.

inside the inside opening it says;
English make guaranteed to be made of two plates of !0Ct gold with plate composition between and to wear 20 years
178046
under that it is stamped 8m
Inside that there is again some scratched on writing.
I can make this out (with a magnifying glass, it reads as follows:
13389 (at least I think it ts a cursive lower case L)
11064l
7085e (at least again, I think it is a e cant be sure!
7502l
9131l

These numbers/letters are scratched (by hand)
clearly by somebody with some good magnification at hand, but not an engraving tool.
for comparison, the letter height is ~1/2 the letter height of the serial number.

(this seems like a strange place to take notes!!)

I have just noticed... there is no hall mark on this watch case at all.
(which is weird, as it clearly claims to be 10Ct gold, and I believe that it would have been illegal for the marker to have sold it as gold without the relevant assay?)
 

Bila

NAWCC Member
Jan 22, 2010
1,326
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www.ozwatchstore.com
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Those small scratched marks are from Repairer's over the years marking their work Daniel, as for an assay mark, no need. It is only 10Kt gold filled, not solid gold, the 20 year warranty is the teller as is the 2 plates of gold over a plate of composition (brass plate). A lot of these I see are usually only a 10 year wear warranty:)
 

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