Help Identifying an old pocket watch

Carter

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Oct 24, 2020
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I was given a pocket watch by my father, the watch seems rather old and from the research I've gathered its silver, from london, and the capital G in the case says it's from 1802 though I'm not sure about that. The mark on the inside by the mechanism creator I'm not able to find anywhere I was wondering if anyone could help me with the watch or anything to do with it. I have added photos in the attached files I hope you are able to open them.
Thank you all :)

20201024_183133.jpg 20201024_182850.jpg 20201024_182913.jpg 20201024_182922.jpg 20201024_183322.jpg
 

gmorse

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Jan 7, 2011
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Hi Carter, and welcome to the forum,

The movement in your watch is Swiss, with a cylinder escapement of a type exported by the Swiss in huge quantities in the second half of the 19th century. It isn't as early as 1802/3. There are a few problems, one of them being that the hand-setting square on the centre arbor, (inside that ring in the centre of the watch), is missing, and the more obvious one of both hands being snapped off. Both of these may suggest that the slipping clutch arrangement which allows the hands to be set is seized up and someone has tried to move the setting square with the key, and when that snapped, did the same with the hands from the front.

The case is something of a puzzle, because your third picture shows what appear to be London sterling silver hallmarks for 1882/3, but the set is incomplete because there should also be a mark for the case maker (or sponsor), which is not present on either of the two lids. It isn't unusual for the inner lid to have only partial marks, but there must be a full set in at least one place for it to be legal. Could you post a picture of the other side of the inner lid, (the one with two holes and known in French as the 'cuvette'), please?

Regards,

Graham
 

Andrew Wilde

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Feb 18, 2020
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I believe the hallmark is suspect. The crispness of the outer edges and the complete lack of detail within the lion and the leopard head suggests these were only ever blocked-in outlines.
 

Carter

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Oct 24, 2020
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Thank you both for you generous help, it would be good to know even if the watch is some sort of fake but at least I've learnt about pocket watches, I've also realised I havent taken a picture of the mechanism so heres that also. :)

20201024_221911.jpg 20201024_221857.jpg
 

John Matthews

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Sep 22, 2015
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Carter - there are marks on the case

upload_2020-10-24_23-47-53.png upload_2020-10-24_23-48-23.png

and pendant that are worthy of closer inspection ...

upload_2020-10-24_23-49-42.png

They may be maker's marks. For my part, I believe the hallmarks for London 1882/83 are possibly genuine.

John
 
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gmorse

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Hi Carter,

The mark on the inside by the mechanism creator I'm not able to find anywhere
If you mean the 'F' and 'S' on the regulator scale, they just stand for 'Fast' and 'Slow' and indicate which way to move the lever if the watch isn't keeping good time. However, I don't advise you to move that lever because it's connected to the balance spring, which appears to be in rather a mess and you don't want to make it any worse.

Thanks for the new pictures, they confirm that the movement is unmistakably Swiss, and as for the case, that probably is as well. It's rather ironic that the Swiss watch industry, parts of which were unashamedly faking English and American watches for so many years, are now, very properly, extremely active in battling counterfeits.

Regards,

Graham
 
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gmorse

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Hi John,

For my part, I believe the hallmarks for London 1882/83 are possibly genuine.
The appearance of hallmarks can be quite radically altered by wear; the cartouches on the leopard and the date letter look correct but I'm unsure about the shape of the leopard's head, I'm not sure he should have side whiskers at this date. The shape of the lion's cartouche is also slightly unusual, but in all fairness, there are variations in all these respects which appear on legitimate hallmarks. What remains is the lack of a maker's/sponsor's mark, and that small square punch at the bottom of the case pictures (and also seemingly on the pendant), is hard to identify as an English mark.

Regards,

Graham
 

John Matthews

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Sep 22, 2015
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Graham - the leopard's head and the shape of the cartouches are correct, correct that is for silver, the gold cartouche is frequently square.

Here is a sharper set of genuine silver marks from the following year ..

upload_2020-10-25_7-20-56.png

I have recently seen a deeply punched maker's mark on a pendant as here, but not on a case.

John
 
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